Wash & Book Resurrected: How? by Fastmover

I think most Browncoats are hoping for a sequel.
But that actually opens the can of worms over Wash's death.
I've seen Browncoats anxious to see, in essence, who Joss will kill off next;
and Browncoats who feel that any attempt to continue without Wash and Zoe as the true death of the series.
Joss has said that he doesn't bring back characters when talking about Wash, but he brought back Dobson in the bridging comic story and has talked about bringing Jubal Early back in other interviews.
So I've seen the "Wash Lives!" discussions get pretty lively.

Re: Wash's death in "Serenity". I am simply not willing to accept that in a fictional 'verse. I look to fiction as entertainment. If I want unhappy endings, all I gotta do is wake up! In my mind, until a film or series continuation says different, the crew put Wash in River's cryo-box to take him home for burial. Along the way, they are informed by Simon that the same medical tech that produced Tracy's hopped up internal organs ("million credit meat" in Tracy's words) are accessible at Government reseaerch facilities. Using a bit of improvisation and Book's ident card, they sneak Wash in in place of a politico who bumped a deserving recipient (ala PA's governor Casey who bumped everybody down the list for his transplant). Alliance bashing, witty dialog and some gunplay ensues. The Firefly 'verse returns to normal.

I will miss Book but his death was a more acceptable fit than Wash's.
One: Books death was important to the storyline and character development because Book was the catalyst to Mal regaining a little bit of his "rudder". Book's casual murder by the Operative and his dying wish, nay, DEMAND that Mall "believe" again made Mal and crew confront River's Miranda secret, rather than just run. Wash was sacrificed meaninglessly as a plot gimmick to create peril.

Two: Book was an individual who interacted with the crew but Wash was half of a married couple who as such made up an important ingredient of Firefly's unique-ness. To destroy that couple as a plot device is a cheap shot at all those who reveled in a mature, married couple as part of the cast ensemble. Which ties into,

Three: Book is a more easily replaced character. If another character with deep-seated religious beliefs were to join Serenity, (not a Sheperd but perhaps a person who wouldn't be stereotypically devout, say a blue-collar industrial worker who knows why he trusts in his Christian faith) the conscience-character would not replace Book but add to his legacy.
But if some "guy" just jumped into Zoe's heart and bed, it would be creepy and an insult to both Wash and Zoe.

Four: Also, Book's mysterious past could be explored in flashback, which would keep actor Ron Glass involved in the series without quite the level of sadness that showing widow Zoe's dead husband would cause. Wash is the "funny" character and there is little funny about being reminded of his death.

I have to admit that to many people, "undoing" Wash's death would cheapen it.
Since I feel the death was cheap and frivilous in the first place,
(and we are talking about "entertainment" and "fiction" here)
I want Wash back as a character more than I want to service a
manipulative, low blow.
I admit it, I still mist up at the Bedlam Bards "Leaf On The Wind" song.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 21, 2007 4:30 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
pennausamike said
I have to admit that to many people, "undoing" Wash's death would cheapen it.

It would. I would be one of the many. And let’s not forget, Alan Tudyk was in support of Wash’s death. He’s been quoted as saying that of the crew of Serenity, his death would create all manner of havoc, and what is Firefly if it doesn’t have a little havoc?

Quote:
FASTMOVER
2) Wash is captured by the Alliance, resuscitated, and used for information - this is highly unlikely, but nothing's impossible.

First, that would be exhumed, reconstructed, and reanimated... used for information? You said it yourself, highly unlikely. Not to mention - resuscitated from a sharpened telephone pole through the chest? Well, okay, in the Firefly day and age of wet-ware smuggling, maybe that could happen... MAYBE.

But as anyone who has ever seen Practical Magic or a magical resurrection on Charmed, one thing is for certain – physically raising someone from the dead never goes well. I believe in the soul, and even if Wash's body got to working again, would Wash really be in there. On the one hand, it would be interesting to see what Alan Tudyk would do with that. On the other hand, it just sounds wrong to me.

Joss uses death as a tool, not as a means of bringing a character back later. Granted, there were rumors that Wesley would have come back had Angel continued, but he didn’t get a pointed telephone pole through the chest either. I fully believe that had Wesley come back, he would have bee a VERY changed man - possibly the new Big Bad - and Joss would have had us hollering “Whatcha do that for?!?”

I will miss Wash as well. And Book - boy will I miss Book. But there is a reason for Joss’s madness. In that, we have to continue to have faith.

Doesn’t mean we can’t still call him names for it from time to time. He might even enjoy it.

Doing the impossible makes us mighty
Minnesota Browncoats
http://www.mnfirefly.com/portal/html/index.php

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 21, 2007 10:49 AM

Good responses! :)

The only other way I could see them doing it is by completely rebooting the series and ignoring either some or all of the events in the film. Personally, I mentally do this on my own every time I watch the series and film, but would not want them to really do it because it would completely strip the entire franchise of all its value.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

I am evil, I am sly, and if you get eaten no one will cry.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 21, 2007 11:13 AM

pennausamike said
I have to admit that to many people, "undoing" Wash's death would cheapen it.

Quote:
It would. I would be one of the many.

OK, I'll be willing to entertain your belief, BUT, you haven't answered any of my concerns/beliefs that Wash's death was a needless cheap shot, that it undermines the core of the Firefly/Serenity character dynamic and that the cost to value of what Firefly/Serenity stands for out weighs the value as a (misguided) plot device.

Joss went on at some length in the Australian Q&A about messing with characters internally vs externally to provide real drama vs contrived drama. I understood his point but I think he went too far. The dynamic has been needlessly shifted from all the things Firefly used to be about (do the job, keep flying, found family) to life without Wash. Mal has no pilot (and making River skilled at Wash's level is a farce of a fiction if ever there was one), Zoe has no husband, Simon has no friend and advocate, Jayne has no light-hearted counter-point and the ship has no smart-assed comic relief. Book's role is replaceable, Wash is NOT.

Quote:
I believe in the soul, and even if Wash's body got to working again, would Wash really be in there. On the one hand, it would be interesting to see what Alan Tudyk would do with that. On the other hand, it just sounds wrong to me.

Because this is a work of fiction, the rules are what the creator makes them. I have no missing soul issues in the Firefly 'verse. Malcolm Reynolds died on Niska's torture table. He was brought back to life. How do you determine when the soul gives up on the body? Also, Wash being saved by Simon adds exciting new dramatic tension for the characters. Zoe would now "owe" loyalty to two people; Mal for saving her and Simon for saving Wash. A viable plot/character development would be her journey to her not owing anybody, which would strengthen her relationship with her husband, Wash. ("What this marriage needs is one less husband") And Mal would have less of a subordinate and more of a partner. And Zoe would be an even stronger female character; but dramatically MADE stronger thru growth, not contrivance.

I LOVE the potential storylines and character development that grow out of Wash being saved. I am disheartened and depressed at the downward spiral that is inevitable if Wash is removed from the Firefly equation.

Joss is a genius, but he isn't perfect.
(Read Serenity: Those Left Behind, ooo....)
To service a short term goal, he wrote himself into a corner by killing Wash, if Wash is truly gone. He took one of the "wheels" off his Firefly "car". The car might limp around on three wheels, but it ain't gonna run RIGHT.

Mike

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 21, 2007 12:33 PM

WHODIED

Everything in the BDM from "bullet in the brainpan--squish!" is a vision in the mind of River, who then can prevent it going down that way.

Not the most elegant solution but the simplest.

--WhoDied

_______________________

The vision becomes reality. It is done.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 21, 2007 2:10 PM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
OK, I'll be willing to entertain your belief, BUT, you haven't answered any of my concerns/beliefs that Wash's death was a needless cheap shot, that it undermines the core of the Firefly/Serenity character dynamic and that the cost to value of what Firefly/Serenity stands for out weighs the value as a (misguided) plot device.

Okay, maybe it was needless and a cheap shot, but it also brought home a very crucial point to everyone in the audience, and everyone on the ship - ANYONE could die at that point. For the tension to be ramped up just that much, there had to be a reason for what they were doing. I wouldn't have gone that route, but Joss did.

Plus, there is no freaking way the crew was going to give up after what Wash did to bring in that landing, and after he got killed for it.

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
I think he went too far.

So do I. That doesn't mean it gets to get undone.

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
(and making River skilled at Wash's level is a farce of a fiction if ever there was one)

How is one simple take off in the rain skilled at Wash's level?

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
Zoe has no husband, Simon has no friend and advocate, Jayne has no light-hearted counter-point and the ship has no smart-assed comic relief. Book's role is replaceable, Wash is NOT.

Never said he was. You wanna put words in my mouth, make sure they're the right ones. And we have no way of knowing if Book's role is replaceable, because we never got to see the true man behind the collar until the moment just before he died, and even then it was only a glimpse.

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
I have no missing soul issues in the Firefly 'verse. Malcolm Reynolds died on Niska's torture table. He was brought back to life.

Mal was brought back within minutes of dying. That's entirely do-able. After a certain length of time, it simply can't be done - right now. In the future? Plus, Mal still had all of his anatomy. Maybe the soul does hang on - it's likely Wash's would have, after the way he went out. But is it truly fair to the character?

Oh good lord. Do you know what happens next? Next comes the "Wash didn't Die" Brigade like the "Richie Ryan didn't die" Brigade for Highlander or "Catherine Lives" fandom for Beauty and the Beast. Think I'm kidding? I bet there's still remnants of the Richie Ryan brigade out there.

That is the one thing I fear the most, because that would really cheapen Wash's AMAZING contribution to this show, and to this 'verse.

Joss has never written himself into a corner that he didn't already know how to get out of.

This story has never been about me and how I feel about it, and what *I* think is right - it's been about ten characters in a big bad universe. Now it's about nine characters in a big bad universe.

If you have to ask me who the tenth character was, I may cry.

Doing the impossible makes us mighty
Minnesota Browncoats
http://www.mnfirefly.com/portal/html/index.php

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 21, 2007 2:12 PM

DUSTMONKEY

i would prefer seeing a prequel than a sequel,

there is so much that hasnt been uncoverered between the series and the film (some explained in the comic but still) this means wash and book would both be alive for the time beeing.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 21, 2007 4:03 PM

Quote:
You wanna put words in my mouth, make sure they're the right ones.

SNIP

If you have to ask me who the tenth character was, I may cry.

It was never my intention to put words in your mouth, only to state my own views.

Any fan who doesn't know that Serenity is the tenth character isn't paying attention.
And ya knooooowwwww...
They brought Serenity back from the dead, too.

Just sayin'...

Keep Flyin',
Mike

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 21, 2007 7:25 PM

Some more weirdness from me. I think it would have been much 'easier' or 'better' in terms of meaning if either Jayne or Inara died. I'll say why.

Inara left Serenity after OIS, and she was never a real player anyway, other than providing that nurturing quality to life on the ship. This is something that Kaylee already offers, and I think much better. Don't get me wrong, she's beautiful and I'd love to be her client anyday, if she'd contract with me, but she was always a bit more out of place for me, even more so than Simon. Sure her and Mal have the tension like Solo and Leia, but other than that she doesn't do very much.

Now if Jayne died, it would have some very important meanings, and I think it would have done the show something. If he had gone down fighting he would have finally found some honor, and this would have completed his character development. After going from a complete sellout mercenary to a somewhat caring individual, his sacrifice would have struck an inner chord with me, especially if they followed it up by taking his body home to his family like they did with Tracy. Then we would see that he is really human after all, and people actually do care for him despite all he has done. It would have really struck Mal, too.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

I am evil, I am sly, and if you get eaten no one will cry.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 21, 2007 8:35 PM

REDHEAD

Fastmover, I really hate that I buy your reasoning about Jayne ( I agree with the Inara comments, too). He and Kaylee are my favorites (the most brutish and the sweetest). I actually agree that Jayne would have made a more meaningful sacrifice than Wash.

Having said that, if I were Whedon I would have sacrificed River. I want the show to go on but how can it be about the average human stumbling along trying to do the best they can when Supergirl is onboard. Summer Glau is my new favorite actress. I think she did outstanding on making her character live with very little given her to say. Yet, I can't see the show I love existing with her mentally stable and physically almost unstoppable.

The facts that River is alive and Wash is dead are what most cause me to believe there will be no more Firefly. (Aaah, knock on wood---)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 3:09 AM

OK, look; I'm for the "nobody after Book dies" approach.

I understand the

Quote:
Now if Jayne died, it would have some very important meanings

but my whole point is that at no point is the show made better by the loss of a main character as compared to what those characters bring to the table dramatically. If we "had" to kill off a fictional character I would agree with this reasoning but we don't "have to" kill off anybody.

But please keep in mind that I acknowledge that my bias runs to the fact that I like my entertainment to be FUN and I expect life to be tempered by MISERY, so when entertainment is tempered by MISERY it becomes a reflection of life and ceases to be entertainment. Good entertainment resonates of real life without getting sucked into dwelling on real life drawbacks.

Quote:
I want the show to go on but how can it be about the average human stumbling along trying to do the best they can when Supergirl is onboard.

I found this observation to be very insightful but I don't feel the potential problem is insurmountable.

Quote:
...I can't see the show I love existing with (River) mentally stable and physically almost unstoppable.

I don't think at the end of Serenity that River is truly "cured". Functioning with more clarity, perhaps, but still working with surgically created psychosis and abilities. I see dramatic potential in the crew relying TOO much on River's insight and her mis-interpretation getting them into trouble. I also see the government pardoning her and Simon in the wake of the Miranda revelation. Their attempts to re-enter society would surely be rocky. Simon is a doctor accused of multiple criminal offenses and River is akin to a psychologically damaged Special Forces soldier returning from too many tours of Vietnam. Especially for River, trying to find her place in the "real" world would be a great way to explore the obstacles that face unusual people (Geeks?) trying to fit in with regular folk (Mundanes?).

As far as her physical abilities, I see her more in line with David Carradine's character in the series "Kung Fu" than as Supergirl. She has an edge, but she isn't unbeatable.
In the bar she was facing a group of alcohol drinking bar patrons, rough, maybe; but not an organized or trained group of people.

And the Reavers? They shot/maybe-killed Simon! Think back to "Safe" where River says to Simon, "You gave up everything you had to find me, and you found me broken." When River has her moment of clarity and tells Simon he can't go because he takes care of her-he's always taken care of her...MY TURN; well shoot-hell, I can't believe the Reavers lasted as long as they did!

So, against trained or criminally inclined sober adversaries and without the "over-the-top-you-killed-Simon" motivation I think River would be more like a second Jayne rather than boringly unbeatable.

Quote:
The facts that River is alive and Wash is dead are what most cause me to believe there will be no more Firefly. (Aaah, knock on wood---)

In my mind, Wash lives. I feel so strongly about his place in the Firefly dynamic that if no more Firefly can come after Serenity without dead Wash, I'd rather it end at Serenity and allow me to finish it out in my own mind in a way that makes me happy. Firefly speaks to me very deeply at a very tough (just "still flyin'")point in my life. I hate to see that connection tossed in the dustbin in the name of a cheap, needless dramatic trick to create fictional peril.

Mike

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 3:26 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
[BIt was never my intention to put words in your mouth, only to state my own views.

Any fan who doesn't know that Serenity is the tenth character isn't paying attention.
And ya knooooowwwww...
They brought Serenity back from the dead, too.

Just sayin'...

All right then.

I am crotchety veteran who lived through the throes of cancellation, so I can get a little tetchy. I got my Browncoat status the hard way. Doesn't make me special or anything, I'm just offering it up as a point of perspective.

Enuff said.

Serenity is less fragile than her human crew. She knows that, same as us. Her parts can be more readily replaced, and no one has to really worry about her blood type... well no one HAS to, but Kaylee would, all the same.

Serenity and Wash worked in concert to save the rest of them. How do you think she feels about all this?

I said I believe in the soul, remember?

See, here's the thing with an ensemble cast - it doesn't rely on any one person. It relies on the whole. Resting too much responsibility on one character can invalidate the contribution of the others. I prefer to find the balance.

I pity any pilot who will be brought in to sit in that chair. He or she will suffer by comparison on so many levels that it would make any regular person crack. And yet, I'm also fiercely curious to find out if there would be anyone who could try and make it. THAT is good storytelling.

I love Wash and Book, same as any tried and true Browncoat. It's hard to let them go, but that's how the real 'verse turns, and that's another huge part of the story Joss is trying to tell.

Doing the impossible makes us mighty
Minnesota Browncoats
http://www.mnfirefly.com/portal/html/index.php

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:06 PM

The River issue kind of gets me, too. The main premise of this show that sets it apart from other sc-fi films was that these were just regular people, maybe even lower than average struggling to get by. This is what got me into the show, and I enjoyed the adventures more than anything else. This conflict seems to be resolved now that River has emerged as a real power, and I must say that some of her actions towards the end of the BDM really did seem too much like 'deus ex machina' if you get me. She's an easy way out of a tight spot, sort of like the undead atomic scrubbing bubble army in Return of the King in the way she takes out all the Reavers.

Now the crew doesn't really have to struggle anymore because like you say, Supergirl can take care of it. And again about Inara, at times she makes things a little too sappy with Mal, especially in Heart of Gold. I really preferred Kaylee's sweetness and happy-go-lucky personality. It's weird, but in real life I'd never see Inara onboard Serenity, and it seems a bit like she got put there from another movie.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

I am evil, I am sly, and if you get eaten no one will cry.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
OK, look; I'm for the "nobody after Book dies" approach.

I understand the
Quote:
Now if Jayne died, it would have some very important meanings

but my whole point is that at no point is the show made better by the loss of a main character as compared to what those characters bring to the table dramatically. If we "had" to kill off a fictional character I would agree with this reasoning but we don't "have to" kill off anybody.

But please keep in mind that I acknowledge that my bias runs to the fact that I like my entertainment to be FUN and I expect life to be tempered by MISERY, so when entertainment is tempered by MISERY it becomes a reflection of life and ceases to be entertainment. Good entertainment resonates of real life without getting sucked into dwelling on real life drawbacks.

Quote:
I want the show to go on but how can it be about the average human stumbling along trying to do the best they can when Supergirl is onboard.

I found this observation to be very insightful but I don't feel the potential problem is insurmountable.

Quote:
...I can't see the show I love existing with (River) mentally stable and physically almost unstoppable.

I don't think at the end of Serenity that River is truly "cured". Functioning with more clarity, perhaps, but still working with surgically created psychosis and abilities. I see dramatic potential in the crew relying TOO much on River's insight and her mis-interpretation getting them into trouble. I also see the government pardoning her and Simon in the wake of the Miranda revelation. Their attempts to re-enter society would surely be rocky. Simon is a doctor accused of multiple criminal offenses and River is akin to a psychologically damaged Special Forces soldier returning from too many tours of Vietnam. Especially for River, trying to find her place in the "real" world would be a great way to explore the obstacles that face unusual people (Geeks?) trying to fit in with regular folk (Mundanes?).

As far as her physical abilities, I see her more in line with David Carradine's character in the series "Kung Fu" than as Supergirl. She has an edge, but she isn't unbeatable.
In the bar she was facing a group of alcohol drinking bar patrons, rough, maybe; but not an organized or trained group of people.

And the Reavers? They shot/maybe-killed Simon! Think back to "Safe" where River says to Simon, "You gave up everything you had to find me, and you found me broken." When River has her moment of clarity and tells Simon he can't go because he takes care of her-he's always taken care of her...MY TURN; well shoot-hell, I can't believe the Reavers lasted as long as they did!

So, against trained or criminally inclined sober adversaries and without the "over-the-top-you-killed-Simon" motivation I think River would be more like a second Jayne rather than boringly unbeatable.

Quote:
The facts that River is alive and Wash is dead are what most cause me to believe there will be no more Firefly. (Aaah, knock on wood---)

In my mind, Wash lives. I feel so strongly about his place in the Firefly dynamic that if no more Firefly can come after Serenity without dead Wash, I'd rather it end at Serenity and allow me to finish it out in my own mind in a way that makes me happy. Firefly speaks to me very deeply at a very tough (just "still flyin'")point in my life. I hate to see that connection tossed in the dustbin in the name of a cheap, needless dramatic trick to create fictional peril.

Mike

I see your point, but unfortunately I believe Joss didn't want anyone killed, but the studio made him do it to create the desired effect for them. I agree no one's death helps the show, but in the words of the Operative, Jayne's death would have been a, "Very good death. There's no shame in this, for a man who has done fine works." :)

[IMG]

[/IMG]

I am evil, I am sly, and if you get eaten no one will cry.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:26 PM

REDHEAD

That romantic sexual tension between Inara and Mal is wonderfully fun but I never could figure out what she was doing on Serenity. Hopefully, one day we will get her back story and that will explain her reasoning for being there.

I understood Whedon's choice in the BDM of paring down the characters by moving Inara and Book off ship. But, I still don't understand the choice of Wash dying. I think Book dying allowed fans of Firefly to believe anyone could die but people just new to the movie wouldn't perceive of Wash as a main character and thus his death failed to increase the perceived likelihood of anyone else dying.

Dangit, I want Firefly back but, even if it were to come back, how would Whedon deal with the drastic changes to his show?

(and Fastmover? While I buy Jayne's death being more impressive than Wash's in BDM, I am so glad it didn't happen. I ran into a spoiler before I saw the movie and cried my eyes out into a puddle on my desk. Then I cried during the movie. If it had been Jayne.... Oh dear, I'd have been incapacitated.)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:31 PM

Joss has stated many times about killing characters to "make the stakes real".
It is his choice to kill characters and I just don't happen to agree with it.

But he's Joss Whedon and I'm just a fan, so my opinion doesn't count.

Mike

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by redhead:
Dangit, I want Firefly back but, even if it were to come back, how would Whedon deal with the drastic changes to his show?

Please see all my proposed storylines and new avenues of dramatic exploration :-)

Mike

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:45 PM

I love Jayne too, he's my favorite character after Mal. He's actually more funny than Wash, but in a much drier and more subtle way that I find interesting. I also really liked Book, but more for his mysterious past than what we see in the show. I get what you mean about Inara. I hate saying it, but sometimes I think they had a cool action show, but wait, no hot chick! Quick, find some flamin' hot beauty and put her in there. Like you say, though, she does have an interesting past like Book if only we ever found out. We already know that the needle she uncovered for fear of the Reavers in the pilot was a disease or poison for anyone who raped her.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

I am evil, I am sly, and if you get eaten no one will cry.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 4:35 PM

TRAVELER

They may not be brought back from the dead, but River may see visions of them and get insight from past experiences she had with them. I'm not saying she is speaking to the dead. Just bringing back memories in flashbacks that are meant to help her through some difficult passage.

I think if Joss does get a chance to make another movie, River will be the focus. She will finally find piece with herself and this will require the aid of the entire crew. That includes Wash and Book.

River may have an Alice Through the Lookin Glass kind of fable that will force her to meet each character in a different environment. She would get a sudden image of Book and start following him from pillar to post. Meeting up with all the others as she trys to find her way with their help.

Traveler

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:46 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
CHANNAIN wrote:....I am crotchety veteran ....

Hmmm, my ears are burning. Did someone mention my name?

Seriously, we all know Joss was capable of this sort of plot twist. What was that quote of his? "Every week Mal would kill someone we liked.... and their puppy."

I actually liked the way Wash was killed off, mid-quip bang crash. No reenactment of the final scene of Pyramus and Thysby Reminded me of how Star Trek Next Generation killed off Tasha Yar. Quick, simple no melodramatic act of bravery just one sudden event.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:20 AM

MEG1448

I was devastated when Wash died. He was one of my favourite characters. Still, I think him magically coming back to life would feel very ungenuine....like it was tacked on to please the fans. What's so great about Firefly is it's ability to seem so true to life in such an unrealistic setting...and, unfortunately, death is a huge part of life.

"Give me religion and a lobotomy."
Beulah Land-Tori Amos

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 2:15 AM

ZZETTA13

It’s pretty simple ( and I got this from Joss himself. We are buddies and since no one really knows who I am I’m safe)

Anyhoo the reason Wash and Book are still alive is because Serenity never happened. It was a dream sequence experienced by the entire crew. Well all but River. See in the OIS eps. Jubal Early realizes that leaving the balance of serenity’s crew alive after he hooks up with River to deliver her to the authorities is not a good idea. They will be sure to come after him. With this in mind he sets off a dream bomb causing the entire crew to sleep and have the same nightmare. Then he sets the ships controls to fly into the nearest sun. When River sees Early exit the ship she allows him to get within ten feet of the Earlymoble and having mastered the controls zooms off outta reach. Early is now hopelessly floating in space and River returns to Serenity and awakens the crew. Course since she is a young woman of mystery and secrets she withholds reality from her crew and lets them go on thinking what they will. So in reality Serenity never bombed at the box-office because there was no BDM.

Just the answers,Z

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 4:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
It’s pretty simple ( and I got this from Joss himself. We are buddies and since no one really knows who I am I’m safe)

Anyhoo the reason Wash and Book are still alive is because Serenity never happened.
SNIP
So in reality Serenity never bombed at the box-office because there was no BDM.

Just the answers,Z

Oh, well, NOW we know!
How foolish of me to worry.
On an anonymous tip I can now sleep at night.
thank YOU!

Mike

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 4:05 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Hmmm, my ears are burning. Did someone mention my name?

Oddly enough, I thought of you when I wrote that.

Veteran

how ya doin', handsome?

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
"Every week Mal would kill someone we liked... and their puppy."

That's kind of what I've been trying to say, but I didn't have that nice, shiny quote. Leave it to you to reduce my ramblings down to one line with an elipsis.

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
I actually liked the way Wash was killed off, mid-quip bang crash. No reenactment of the final scene of Pyramus and Thysby Reminded me of how Star Trek Next Generation killed off Tasha Yar. Quick, simple no melodramatic act of bravery just one sudden event.

I believe Alan Tudyk said much the same thing on the fan video. I've only seen it once at a local Shindig, though, so I'm not claiming it as law.

Then again, what else does a fella say after his most beloved character has been killed? Someone asked me once if seeing all the pre-screenings made that part of the movie easier. My answer?

No.

Doing the impossible makes us mighty
Minnesota Browncoats
http://www.mnfirefly.com/portal/html/index.php

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
It’s pretty simple ( and I got this from Joss himself. We are buddies and since no one really knows who I am I’m safe)

Anyhoo the reason Wash and Book are still alive is because Serenity never happened. It was a dream sequence experienced by the entire crew. Well all but River. See in the OIS eps. Jubal Early realizes that leaving the balance of serenity’s crew alive after he hooks up with River to deliver her to the authorities is not a good idea. They will be sure to come after him. With this in mind he sets off a dream bomb causing the entire crew to sleep and have the same nightmare. Then he sets the ships controls to fly into the nearest sun. When River sees Early exit the ship she allows him to get within ten feet of the Earlymoble and having mastered the controls zooms off outta reach. Early is now hopelessly floating in space and River returns to Serenity and awakens the crew. Course since she is a young woman of mystery and secrets she withholds reality from her crew and lets them go on thinking what they will. So in reality Serenity never bombed at the box-office because there was no BDM.

Just the answers,Z

HAHA, this is the best so far! One plot whole, however, is that everyone was already awake when Jubal got sent on his little space swim... But that could always be part of the dream... :)

[IMG]

[/IMG]

I am evil, I am sly, and if you get eaten no one will cry.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 3:39 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Channy,

I'm doin' great. Thanks. It's hard to be crotchety with a warm reception like that.

The only bad feeling I have about Wash buying the farm is the that when it looked like they might make Serenity, Alan sent Joss the call back button from Out of Gas with a note saying something like "in case you need me." I found that gesture to be a great display of loyalty. But how was he rewarded? His character was sacrificed to the plot....of course it was a great scene. Maybe that's enough.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 5:29 PM

TRUEBLUE

Who said they *found* let alone *burried* Wash's body?

In a place crawling with reavers a missing body would not be unexpected: the "funeral" shot could be a memorial service.

Wash *can* be brought back. And I think should. However it could not involve the serenity crew who obviously think he is dead. I dont think the abduction by a 3rd party is impossible. Perhaps for imformation about River, or what he knew of Book's past, or perhaps Inara's murky past? Who knows...

Bringing back wash would be beneficial to the story, his death was irrelevant (beyond the "what did you think? They were all bullet-proof" point).

Book is a little more difficult to bring back, his death was pivotal and had great weight. I also think the "flashback" approach could be employed effectively.

---------
I will think of a signature later. It will be so stunningly brilliant your entire life will pale into insignificance when compared to the few words that will be written here.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:13 PM

AUTUMLEAF

Wash is not really dead.....so we don't need no resurrection.

Trueblue is on to my thinking.
When the crew was forced to leave serenity and fight the last battle, they were most likly gone for an extended period after. The Alliance troops and operatives would not let them just waltz back to their ship with out a debriefing of some sort. As those things go....probably it went on for hours and hours. When they did go back to the ship, and did not find Wash still pinned to the chair, they would assume that he had been taken either by the Alliance troops or by the Reavers (for un-named purposes) ick. Either way they assumed he was dead, so they went on with a "memorial" service. Watch your DVD's closely - the service is for ALL the people that died. the video memorial cylinders, on the un-named planet DO NOT appear to be graves. they are not big enough.

Taken by someone yes, but not the reavers as the crew thinks. No, it was the Alliance...but by accident. Put on your combat hats now and Read on.

When there is a battle, there are always the combat troops, and the back up folks. The Alliance troops that poured off the Operatives ship would have been backed up by medics and other personel to triage and clean up the casualties. In the aftermath, the medics would have been going around the area and collecting injured or the dead. Because Wash was not a reaver, they would have taken Wash dead or alive back to the medical facilities or their morgue. reavers bodies are burned by the local planet sanitation dept. anyway, when the crew got back to the ship, the last place they are going to go is to the Alliance to see if Wash was there. Even if they did, they would have received the buracratic run-around because Wash would have been a john doe to the authorities. So, they assume it was reavers that took 'um, and they go about their service. imagine how pissed Zoe is about that.

so how to I figure our Wash is not dead?
Look at the Serenity video again. This is the CSI part. Look at the angle of entry of the spike. While it could be perceived to be going directly in to the heart, it looks in fact to be lower, and thus going into his stomach. While this would sever the main artery to his torso, causing him normaly to bleed to death, the impact was so fast and clean that the spike caused the cauterization of the artery. thus rendered him in Shock, but not dead. Notice in the scene there is no blood? the spike seems to go through him out his back, where again there is no blood, so we have the severd spine to deal with. but I have worked this out too.

So our poor Wash, comes too and the place is crawling with Reavers and Alliance troops, he's trapped, can't move his legs, no one is there to protect him and yes he is dying slowly. What next? Chapter II

AutumLeaf

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:30 PM

SIMONWHO

Jewel Staite actually let slip at a convention how we're going to see them again (at least how we would have if the prequel Joss has in his mind and discussed with the cast is ever made): the first five minutes of the film are something dramatic (she didn't say what but boy did she want to) and then the rest of the film is flashbacks showing how it came to that point. Hence we could see Book/Wash in flashbacks from some point prior to the BDM.

Wash and Book died - I don't want any fake comebacks to cheapen those deaths.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 24, 2007 6:03 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wash and Book never died. That awful movie never happened.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 26, 2007 1:25 AM