River's Limitations by Ariane

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

River's Limitations

POSTED BY: ARIANE
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 14:19
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Saturday, April 28, 2007 7:38 PM

We've seen some of the amazing things River can do both mentally and physically. She can take out a roomful of people and she can mouth what Mal's saying along with him even when they're in separate rooms. I'm not challenging the notion that she rocks hard core, I'm just wondering where her abilities end. A lot of fanfic extrapolates a degree of clairvoyance and invincibility that I just don't buy.

For instance... does distance matter with regard to her telepathy? How much control has she got over whose brainwaves are coming in? And can she see the future, or does she just read people's intentions and extrapolate from there?

We know she's a martial artist and a crack shot, so what would it take to bring her down? She's itty bitty, so it seems to me that her advantage lies more in her speed and precision than in the heft of her blows.

Just some things I thought were interesting. I haven't seen them discussed anywhere, so apologies if this is a repeat of something that's already been mulled over.

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Saturday, April 28, 2007 8:16 PM

SINGATE

Have a look at some of the 'River vs. ______' threads. There are many around these parts who seem to believe she is the verse equivalent of Superman.

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Saturday, April 28, 2007 8:24 PM

ARIANE

It's really tempting to equate her to Buffy ("Oh, look, another one of Whedon's hot chicks with superpowers!"), but she's not. Her right hook doesn't magically propel people twenty feet into a wall. The muscles she's got are the muscles we see.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:06 AM

CAVALIER

I think this is interesting. There are a lot of posts saying “River can do x”. We really need some saying “River cannot do Y”.

Without limitations, she is as boring as Superman.

Three points come to mind.

First is that physically, she appears to be comparable to Summer Glau. Anything River can do on the spur of the moment, Summer can do with a lot of training and practice. River does not have better muscles so much as she has better control over her body.

Second, there was at least one occasion where River was flatly wrong. In OOG she told Book they would not die choking because “we’ll freeze to death first.” Some time later Book and Wash were dead, but both were as unfrozen as the rest of the crew. Her prediction must have been based on knowledge of Serenity’s predicament, not a clairvoyant ability to literally see into the future.

Third is from OIS. When Simon woke he was surprised to see River not in her bed, so she must have been there when he went to sleep. At this time Jubal Early was literally walking around on the surface of Serenity’s hull, yet when River got up she clearly did not try to warn her beloved brother there was anything up. She may have been suspicious at that point, but not enough to warn Simon.

On the other hand, when Early was inside Serenity, and River was aboard his ship, she clearly knew enough about him to make his skin crawl. If she is a ‘conventional’ telepath, his helmet (worn outside the ship, but not inside) must have acted as a shield. I think this is a bit odd, as the ships hulls clearly had no effect.

I think the key is that when she started talking to Early she was inside his ship, a place that was very much his, and onto which he had stamped his personality.

I saw OIS long after the BDM or the rest of the series. I think it makes River far more terrifying than she is at any other time in the ‘verse.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:18 AM

DARKFLY

All i notice about River is what she's wearing if anything & that she's never with another man in a romantic way

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:19 AM

THEONETRUEBIX

Quote:
Originally posted by Cavalier:
Second, there was at least one occasion where River was flatly wrong. In OOG she told Book they would not die choking because “we’ll freeze to death first.” Some time later Book and Wash were dead, but both were as unfrozen as the rest of the crew. Her prediction must have been based on knowledge of Serenity’s predicament, not a clairvoyant ability to literally see into the future.

Um, wow. Not once did I think that moment had anything to do with predicting the future, which isn't something River can do anyway.

It was clearly just a factual comment about what WAS going to kill them if they remained on board.

So, this is not an example of River being wrong about anything.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:27 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

The only indication that I've ever seen that River is a precog was in OoG whe she said fire before there was fire. As that was a split second before the event perhaps she just heard or felt it first. I believe that her perseptions may be slightly hightened but not to a supernatural extent. Mostly she's an amazing fighter and a telepath.

As to not sensing Early in OiS, her telepathy and the the disociative state that come with it to some extent seemed to be particularly strong in that ep. There was too much noise to sort it all out until later.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:35 AM

SCHOONER

I've had the opinion that, psychically, River needs time to bond with a person. In 'Safe', she is shown reading people who are physically close, but can 'see' what Mal is seeing even though they are separated, and finds Simon easily. Likewise, in 'Ariel' River hones in on Mal.

I don't think River sees the future as much as reads the situation and people's motivations and extrapolates using her super-genius brain. In 'Ariel' she points to the patient about to go into cardiac arrest. A lot of fans point to this as showing River predicting the future, but it could just as easily be River reading the patient status and medication from the attending doctor and reading the unconscious patient's discomfort, then putting the pieces together.

I wonder if psychometry, reading phychic echos of past events in places or objects, could also explain some River-isms like knowing exactsly where the bodies were on the one Reaver'ed ship.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:53 AM

ARIANE

I'm fairly certain that River doesn't magically see the future, Oracle at Delphi style. It's occurred to me that she is bright enough to be able to predict what will *probably* happen, especially given her added data with regard to people's plans and moods. Maybe at that point her imaginative little brain supplies the appropriate images. Voila, she's told the future. Mind, this would mean she wouldn't necessarily be right all the time. She's dealing in probabilities, not certainties.

We've also been told that the mechanism which should filter her emotions and give her some control over herself has been damaged. Is it possible that she is also unable to sort sensory information? Most humans only take in a small percentage of what they see, hear, smell, etc. Could it be that River takes in a much larger percentage of what her sense organs tell her? So "Fire!" was not clairvoyance, but simply attention paid to the roaring sound from the engine room.

She also seems to keep tabs on where people are. She says "time to go" right on cue in "Safe," and she announces the Blue Hands' arrival in "Ariel." I'm thinking this is another function of her telepathy. (Note that, at the time, the arriving parties were coming for her specifically.) She heard the brainwaves or whatnot, and they caught her attention because they were focused on her, and... look, witchcraft.
In the BDM, she knew the Reavers had touched down before she'd had sight or sound of them. Maybe the arrival of a hundred distractingly voracious and murderous minds in her radius was stimulus enough, never mind that they weren't thinking of her specifically.
So brainwaves are background noise, unless they do something that catches her particular attention. That's my working theory.

As for Early... well, there's the hole. Because he was looking for her, and very intently. You'd think she'd have noticed and warned people. But Joss has noted that Early and River are not dissimilar. Both are outsiders looking in, both very intuitive. Maybe a mind so similar to her own didn't trip her alarms. It's like someone in a fluffy pink sweater sneaking into a fluffy pink room. Not quite as noticeable as someone in all-over black pleather.

And, as Kayna pointed out, she was having one of her bad days.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:19 AM

SCHOONER

With Early, I'd actually say that, initially, River was functioning exactly as she was designed and conditioned to.

She did 'hear' Early, in the very first shot of her. The voices in her head are those of the crew, with Early's "we're all just floating" at the very end. That, and maybe that she was asleep, could have set off her Academy conditioning to identify and eliminate the threat.

I'm one of the ones that believes that during River's walkabout, we're actually seeing her telepathically checking out the crew and the ship to determine the source of the threat. This is why no one seems to acknowledge her during this time. While this is going on, her body is on automatic pilot like in the Maidenhead. This time the command is "find a weapon" When River's maind completes her search, she re-integrates with her body, which is now carrying a loaded gun in order to deal with Early.

As for why she didn't alert Simon, after the earlier debacle I could see her figuring that anything she said about a threat would be taken as she needs another smoother. Going behind everyone's back let her put her own plan in motion, instead of her conditioned behavior.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:44 AM

SIGMANUNKI

My opinion, though I'll probably get flamed for it, is that BDS River is seriously limited. More along the lines of an expert in many things, but nothing supernatural or anything similar.

BDM River I would say is more along the typical Buffy 'Verse. She's gonna have as much or as little ability as the situation/context dictates.

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"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:20 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE

As far as her physical abilities, I see her more in line with David Carradine's character in the series "Kung Fu" than as Supergirl. She has an edge, but she isn't unbeatable.
In the bar she was facing a group of alcohol drinking bar patrons, rough, maybe; but not an organized or trained group of people.

And the Reavers? They shot/maybe-killed Simon! Think back to "Safe" where River says to Simon, "You gave up everything you had to find me, and you found me broken." When River has her moment of clarity and tells Simon he can't go because he takes care of her-he's always taken care of her...MY TURN; well shoot-hell, I can't believe the Reavers lasted as long as they did!

So, against trained or criminally inclined sober adversaries and without the "over-the-top-you-killed-Simon" motivation I think River would be more like a second Jayne rather than boringly unbeatable.

I don't think at the end of Serenity that River is truly "cured". Functioning with more clarity, perhaps, but still working with surgically created psychosis and abilities. I see dramatic potential in the crew relying TOO much on River's insight and her mis-interpretation getting them into trouble. I also see the government pardoning her and Simon in the wake of the Miranda revelation. Their attempts to re-enter society would surely be rocky. Simon is a doctor accused of multiple criminal offenses and River is akin to a psychologically damaged Special Forces soldier returning from too many tours of Vietnam. Especially for River, trying to find her place in the "real" world would be a great way to explore the obstacles that face unusual people (Geeks?) trying to fit in with regular folk (Mundanes?).

(Excerpted from an earlier post)

Mike

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:30 AM

BLUEEYEDBRIGADIER

For me, River's limitations vary depending on whether you are looking at River's physical capabilities or her mental ones.

Physically, River is only as strong as the level of conditioning her body has undergone. She can fight multiple enemies and decimate mobs of attackers because she automatically goes for kill or incapacitation shot from the start. She can't hold off 6 burly spacers with brute strength because she's not strong enough. As an example, look at how River defeats Jayne in the BDM: she attacks vital points to incapacitate or stun (twists Jayne's testicles to sun before smacking him with a serving tray, and beats him upside the head with a metal can). That and her forced-upon-her combat training gives her an edge against brawlers.

Mentally? River definitely seems to be a telepath, with probable enhanced psychometry due to her immeasurable IQ. That and improbability-related precognition.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:42 PM

ZZETTA13

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007 2:19 PM

REGINAROADIE

I second that. I think that if River were a free woman and went out on her own to find her place in the world, that she would gravitate towards people who have had similar experiences whom she can relate to.

In my story You Can't Go Home Again (I'm pimping because after this final I'm finally going to get back to work on it), I have River go out on her own a find a group of musicians who are trying to resurrect the long forgotten art of rock music. And the co-lead of the band is a guy named Johnny who is a true musical prodigy, but whose scarred both physically and spiritually from an abused childhood and many years in juvie. And in him, River find a sort of kindred spirit that will definitely be beneficial down the road towards her recovery.

I'm more inclined to her hooking up with an OC in fanfics as opposed to Mal or Jayne because it seems more emotionally honest than hopping into bed with a man in his early 40's.

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