Imponderables: Cry Havoc!... by nvghostrider

Firsties!

Don't forget the party: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=30320

You know what the first rule of flyin' is? Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take a boat in the air that you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. And love keeps her in the air when she oughtta fall down… tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keels… makes her a home.

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
In honor of the founding member of the 76th IB, founder of the Imponderables thread, and a brother in arms I am graced to call friend, this thread is dedicated to Tristan. I know there is static here and there, but oh well. Regardless of our qualms we have to set things aside from time to time to say:

Thank you.

So here's to Tristan and all of out brothers, sisters, friends who will be representing us at D*C this year. I am rarely so proud as I am of all of you.

I like it, NV. I like your words a lot.

So I say thank you as well. I may grumble, I may have my opinions, but that doesn't take away from the fact he started this thread eons ago, and has done a bag-up job with the 76th.

Thanks, T. Have a good time leading your troops into battle at D*C!

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:24 AM

Yup and he's probably already there...I hope he's not taking all the closet space...LOL
Good idea NV

here's to our progenitor ( ok well creator sounded wrong and we weren't really invented so...)

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:55 AM

OK a ponder...in honor of Tristan

Can men and women be friends without ever once thinking about what it would be like to sleep with the person??? I mean seriously pure as the driven snow friendship.

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
OK a ponder...in honor of Tristan

Can men and women be friends without ever once thinking about what it would be like to sleep with the person??? I mean seriously pure as the driven snow friendship.

What is your answer, MSG?

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
OK a ponder...in honor of Tristan

Can men and women be friends without ever once thinking about what it would be like to sleep with the person??? I mean seriously pure as the driven snow friendship.

I don't think that question is worded exactly the way you mean it. I mean I think single people for sure have to ask themselves that question first, because if the person is a romantic prospect they should act differently. They can be think that sleeping with the other person would be "unappealing" though and then a purely frienshipy relationship can be formed after that IMO. But no matter what they're going to think about it once.

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:08 AM

Um my answer is NO they can't. Even if it's never acted upon there will still be that passing moment of wondering or just that instant of attraction...don't think it matters if you're married or single. I think that you can be friends and never ever act on the thoughts, but I think the thoughts will be there

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
OK a ponder...in honor of Tristan

Can men and women be friends without ever once thinking about what it would be like to sleep with the person??? I mean seriously pure as the driven snow friendship.

No.

Seriously.

No.

edit: posted at the same time as MsG. We agree!
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Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
Um my answer is NO they can't. Even if it's never acted upon there will still be that passing moment of wondering or just that instant of attraction...don't think it matters if you're married or single. I think that you can be friends and never ever act on the thoughts, but I think the thoughts will be there

1) I agree completely

2) Can I be your friend?

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
Um my answer is NO they can't. Even if it's never acted upon there will still be that passing moment of wondering or just that instant of attraction...don't think it matters if you're married or single. I think that you can be friends and never ever act on the thoughts, but I think the thoughts will be there

And is that so bad? If I were your friend and came over to you house every so often and once in a while thought "I wonder what some nekkid cuddling with MSG would be like" - Is that really such a bad thing?

*wonders what some nekkid cuddling with MSG would be like*

If you wonder that about me, you'll need this:

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyVote:
And is that so bad? If I were your friend and came over to you house every so often and once in a while thought "I wonder what some nekkid cuddling with MSG would be like" - Is that really such a bad thing?

See that's where I think the real question is. What's so bad about it? I've thought about sleeping with plenty of women who I'd never act on the thought with. I think it's a standard guy thing at least. Just because I think about what it would be like to sleep with my brother's wife doesn't mean I'd ever in a million years actually sleep with my brother's wife.

So, in my opinion it doesn't matter. It's when you are so attracted to the other person that you can't think about anything else that it becomes a problem for a friendship.

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:30 AM

Oh we do not need eye bleach...LOL
yeah see there's always going to be that moment, that little flicker of attraction. I think those in relationships choose whether or not to act on it and I think it's really no big deal... of course this correlates to the celebrity list...MisterG and I each have a list of 5 celebrities that we can sleep with if we ever get the chance ( oh like that's ever going to happen)

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:10 AM

Good pick up point MSG.

On the friend thing. Yes. Folks can be friends between sexes and not wonder what it would be like to sex them up.

Of course those people are probably gay and that is pushing it. I think friends always consider that. One thing about people is they will NOT DO alot of things that they want to do. I rarely hugged Mindy when she was in town. We cuddled a bit when we lived together before. Only once did we almost go too far, but she was drunk and still married (not that any of that mattered this time). This sucks, but we never kissed until that one night. Never really got to build up to it much. We had slept together for a few nights, but that is all it was. Sleeping and cuddling.

If people are friends and it is an all of the sudden sort of thing, I've seen it go both ways. Of course my situation favored the path of destruction but hey, nothing is perfect.

So here is a sub question to MSG's.

How long should people be friends before they do have sex? Consider a relationship? Kiss?

Mostly a matter of opinion, experience, and preferance. I ponder because I can already say that I really don't want an all of the sudden thing. I want true and lasting. But faith seems a bit waivering at this point. For all the people I know, few reach my age and get together without that bit of deperation falling close behind. Like I said. I don't just want to be neccessary. I want to be wanted.

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:38 AM

JONNYQUEST

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?"

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
Um my answer is NO they can't. Even if it's never acted upon there will still be that passing moment of wondering or just that instant of attraction...don't think it matters if you're married or single. I think that you can be friends and never ever act on the thoughts, but I think the thoughts will be there

Maybe it's a good thing I can't make it to D*C...!

Breathing the same air at night...
I think it's very possible not ever to have the thought cross someone's mind. I, however, doubt that I am that someone. And so to extrapolate a bit, the line between true "hey, baby" affection and internal creepiness or at least crossing a mental/moral line gets yet a little fuzzier.

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
How long should people be friends before they do have sex? Consider a relationship? Kiss?

You don't have to be friends to have sex. Or even be attracted, although it's much better that way. Drunk is all you need.
Some folks base their relationships on sex, so again, friendship is optional. But better.

Kiss? Hollywood gives us two options. There is the tension-building, repressed kiss that doesn't come until the end of the movie and we can all cheer. Then there's the one that comes early on, so we can watch the relationship grow or wither as the case may be and feel the quiet satisfaction when things go right or the longing ache if things don't.

Cave in to the undeniable passion or move along with baby steps. Passion needs to be rekindled constantly, patience is forever. How long should someone wait? Begin with the end in mind. What is your goal? You need to get laid, who cares about getting to know a person. But:

Quote:
I want to be wanted.

If you are looking for lifelong love, let the moment reveal itself.

Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes. - Walt Whitman

- Vote Causal/JonnyQuest, for Benevolent Co-Dictator of Earth; together, toward a brighter tomorrow!

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:04 AM

Ooooh I love it! Good ponderable NVG.

I've got a friend who swears up and down that it's best to be friends first and then start up a relationship. I'm exactly the opposite. I think it way complicates things to be friends first.

The episode of Scrubs where JD and Elliot first hook up hits the nail on the head IMO. Things that you wouldn't care about a week ago are suddenly dwelling points that lead to arguments.

Moving from friendship to relationship leaves a lot of past information that may no long apply to the current situation and it's impossible to know what things the other expects to change. It also makes a break up much more complicated.

I'm not saying I only want to date total strangers though. I just like to limit the friend period to at most a month. If I haven't made a move by then I'm probably not interested. Which just leads to the problems of when you can't make a move because of other circumstances.

These relationshipy things are complicated!

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:30 AM

hmm I'm pretty much with Zeek. I think if you're interested you start with the dating friendship and not the friend friendship. I think it can move across, but I think it has weird boundaries and some strangeness. ( then again most of my males friends I would never ever date not even if it were vital to the survival of the species...)

LOL Jonny you're so funny:) I promise I am hardly that tempting.

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
hmm I'm pretty much with Zeek.

lol you make it sound so painful.

OK I think I pretty much survived without blowing up at anyone....to their face. I call that a win.

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Thursday, August 30, 2007 1:42 PM

Actually (feel kinda dickish saying it) I already have determined my stance on the question. It was just one of those I had to rehash because it was one of the very first ponderables I ever posted. Seems alot has happened since I first started posting and I wondered about the amount of change I had gone through.

Answer: a bunch. I found that even with my best friend I am unbending on alot of things. I won't have sex unless I absolutely trust that person at that point in time. I will not allow much door matting as I like being able to assert myself without negative reprocussion (especially bitching and moaning).

But, I am looking around. But just looking for a good time. A date. Fun time without the need for immediate commitment. And, no matter the urge, no screwing around until an actual commitment is made. I like the point of making friendships with the intention of dating. Did that last year and it hit like an IED. From out of nowhere. Most hit their mark but many catch some unsuspecting folks at the worst time. Seems I gave up on the idea of making friends with the intention of dating. But I'm also wondering if some of that hadn't been sabatoged by a certain person I consider to have been my best friend. And (I have been thinking this secretly for a very long time) maybe I had been chained up as the "reserve" or pinch hitter for longer than I can actually recall.

Ponderable: Are friends of the opposire sex really that devious? I know the answer can easily be yes, but does anyone have instances they can personally note?

I really think that both possibles in the last year easily fall into that category.

A name for that category of friends you ask?

I'd come up with a few but they seem a bit derrogatory and down right mean.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 2:56 AM

Yay! I'm loved!

Wait! Did that say Asshat?

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Friday, August 31, 2007 5:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyVote:

2 out of 3 personalities agree!

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Friday, August 31, 2007 5:15 AM

NVG I think everyone can be that devious to some extent. Most people want to have someone and having a backup is just like buying insurance.

HK changed her hair. Looks good on her.

And OMG am I glad it's a three day weekend. I'm at the boiling point with work. Every little problem other people cause and dump on me is just getting me closer and closer to the point where I explode.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 6:25 AM

No doubt Zeek. Being in charge of our techs is almost as bad as running a daycare. And they are in charge of supervising teenagers. ARRRGGGHHHH!

Is there anyway to lay down a metaphorical bitch slap. I usually find something to say that takes a bit of analysis to figure out is best. That way they get home, wind down, recap the day, then think about what you said and realize that it was kinda F-ed up. Screw 'em. They probably effected most of your day. Why not screw up the end of theirs.

HK does always looks good despite what color her hair is. Give her a big hello and hugs from us Fly.

Oh goodness Mavs. Hope the morning is good. Mind is in DERRR mode right now.

So I was flirting a horrible amount last night at Johns shop with a pretty gorl who likes to work in the garage and drink beer on her off time. She likes to go out, but only to dance. And she has some fairly gnarly tats. Plus she makes considerably more money than I do (sales for a cellular service). Not saying I'm in love, but she does hang well with the guys and seems to have fun depite being tired/hungry for a few hours while hanging out after work.

Lets see where it goes.

Batter up!

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Friday, August 31, 2007 7:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
HK does always looks good despite what color her hair is. Give her a big hello and hugs from us Fly.

Will do!

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Friday, August 31, 2007 7:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mavourneen:
Quote:
Originally posted by FlyVote:

2 out of 3 personalities agree!

CK? Don't let me down, now!

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Friday, August 31, 2007 7:49 AM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

I'm only here because work decided to call me at the ass-crack of dawn (ok, it was 10:30, but hubby is taking today off, so I was sleeping in!) to ask me to write more copy for whatever it is we're making today. Sleepy CK.

Anyhow.

Yes, Flyvote, you are in fact an asshat.

But I (we) love ya. So wear that ass-shaped hat proudly.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

(so much ass in one post, wtf?)

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Friday, August 31, 2007 8:02 AM

Wow 3 out of 3 in one thread. It's almost like old times.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 8:03 AM

News from above:

I get to leave at three today. Hooray! Gotta get ready for shows on Saturday and Monday. Kinda nervous. Haven't demonstrated for months and months. Not that there is alot to worry about. I actually just want something to bitch about.

Bitch Numero Uno: People and their questions.

THEM: "Do they float?"
Me: "Yes. They are actual functioning decoys, used for over a thousand years right here in the valley."
THEM: "So these are used for hunting?"
ME: "Well, not these days. Now we have modern materials. Plastics and such."
THEM: "So these actually worked?"
ME: "Yeah. Seems I can attest to that beacause, well, I'm here."
THEM: "So they float?"

Just more of the fun stuff from folks lacking common sense. Trust me, the questioning gets worse. But there neither the space nor the time to describe it.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 8:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
Yes, Flyvote, you are in fact an asshat.

But I (we) love ya. So wear that ass-shaped hat proudly.

I'm all sorts of warm from hearing that. Really - it was from that, not the scotch.

The three of you are very much loved, even if you are also asshats. Very much loved. Nearly as much asshatness.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 8:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
News from above:

I get to leave at three today. Hooray!

I'm soooo hoping for some similar news from on high today.

It makes me keep hitting the little synchronize button on my email client a lot.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 12:04 PM

Three o'clock. Hope ya got to leave Zeek.

I'm out. Hope to make it back this weekend.

Goodnight.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 8:09 PM

Saturday night
BUMP.
Because there is always pondering to do on the opposite sexes, even at 23:10 when you are all alone.

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 3:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyVote:
Quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
Yes, Flyvote, you are in fact an asshat.

But I (we) love ya. So wear that ass-shaped hat proudly.
I'm all sorts of warm from hearing that. Really - it was from that, not the scotch.

The three of you are very much loved, even if you are also asshats. Very much loved. Nearly as much asshatness.

It's my professional opinion that was the laphroaig scotch talking...

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 3:31 AM

PENGUIN

King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Monday, September 3, 2007 7:03 AM

Good Monday morning to y'all.

Seems that Saturday night turned in to Sunday morning real quick. Right after my last post I got a tearful call from a drunk bitch that I no longer know. She requires a certain level of abuse and violation that I am neither capable nor willing to offer. I have told my sister to watch the baby at her house and not here. This may not be the final words I share on the issue of Mindy. The love I felt and we shared for a very limited time will always linger. But as for any love now or ever again, this may be the limit. This may be the final lucid thought that I give to any possibility of ever wanting to share that love again. It has hindered my ability to function for far too long.

As for moving on, I have already begun looking around. Really trying to figure where to go from this point.

Off to the gallery for demonstrations, then to sight in Johns new rifle for bunny season.

See y'all later.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 12:08 AM

DANCINGNEKO

*sneaks in*

Welcome back to the D*C-ers. Hope everyone had fun there and got lots of pictures.

*looks at the time, meeps and runs off*

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 4:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
Three o'clock. Hope ya got to leave Zeek.

I'm out. Hope to make it back this weekend.

Goodnight.

They didn't let us go. Grrrrr

Oh well I'm over it. Though somehow I ended up still sleepy after a 3 day weekend.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 6:18 AM

Quiet day.

OK ponder this folks. How long (minimum) should a couple date before getting engaged? How long maximum should a couple date (maximum) before deciding they just are right for each other if they still don't want to get engaged?

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 6:44 AM

SLYC

Of course their are exceptions but a couple should date 3 years minimum before getting engaged. This mostly based upon the fact that the 'love chemical' released in the brain lasts around two years. If you can still be compatible after you are no longer 'under the influence' then you've got a shot and hopefully 'true love' will truly flourish.
That sounds clinical but remember 'true love' is what I'm looking for. I'm a romantic...
Just remember... The definition of a romantic is: someone who squarely refuses to look facts in the face!

P.S. I absolutely love, "asshat". It's my new favorite durogatory term!

Nice Einstein pic, Mavourneen!
Nice icon, Penguin!

Politics is the showbiz of industry.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 7:30 AM

I gotta go with SlyC on this one. Seems so many folks jump in way too fast and end up divorced anyhow. As for a maximum time limit, it is a matter of personal belief. I would have no problem living with/dating someone for several years before marrying. But really guys, how much say do we really have? As a matter of ideals, each partner should have an equal say in when and how. For me, I would just like someone to hang around with for a few years. Seems codependancy really kicked my ass this time and the thought of a relationship lacking that aspect sounds refreshing. Seems the cards are stacked against people like me in that aspect though. There is a natural tendancy to seek that type of relationship regardless if we want it or not.

Sidetracked. Stupid brain.

Anyhoo I've seen it work so many different ways that to me there is really no way to tell.

Seems dodging bullets has infinite possibilities left to be seen by those outside of the situation.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 8:21 AM

I would say 2 years is good for the getting engaged part but maybe that's not long enough. The max for dating without making a decision is important too though. I think if you aren't engaged in 4 to 5 years then there's something wrong and the breakup is just being postponed.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 8:46 AM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Morning all.

Quote:
How long (minimum) should a couple date before getting engaged?

Hmm, I think I'll have to disagree with the general consensus and go with a much shorter time. Hubby and I had known each other for 50 weeks when we got engaged, and had been dating for about 10 months. We announced our engagement at the same annual company party where we met the year before. That was five years ago next week, so it seems to have worked out.

As far as maximum dating time, I think it really depends on how important marriage is to each of you. If both of you value marriage and want to get married someday, and yet are still stalling on getting engaged beyond say 6 years of dating, then that's a problem. If one of you thinks marriage is important and the other doesn't, IMO that starts to become a problem after 2 years of dating. But if you have an honest understanding between each other about marriage, and it just isn't important to either of you, I don't think there's the same sort of time horizon. If you live together for 7 years, you're "common-law married" anyhow. Marriage is just not a priority for some people, even when they've found a life partner.

In a related impondertable: How long, minimum and maximum, should a couple be engaged?

My own answers: I planned my (very small but formal) wedding in 4 months, and because of that I think that if you're going to be engaged for less than 3 months, just say screw it and elope. But most wedding books/webpages/planners/etc. will tell you that you need at least a year to plan. I can see being engaged for 18 months, but once you start to approach the 2 year mark I have to wonder what the hold up is. Waiting to graduate? Holding off marriage until you can book that really awesome reception hall? ;P OTOH, I think "society weddings" could probably take 2 years to plan, and of course this doesn't take into account things like arranged marriages, etc.

Thoughts?

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 8:47 AM

SLYC

Why do you have to get married? A marriage certificate is just a piece of paper after all. What matters is the commitment between the partners.
Would you accept 'committed for life' instead of 'engaged' in your sentence below?

I think if you aren't engaged in 4 to 5 years then there's something wrong and the breakup is just being postponed.

Just wondering where you're coming from, Zeek.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 8:53 AM

KELKHIL

Ok so here is my question.....

Why would there ever be a Max? I mean if the couple is happy where they are at, who's to say they need to change that? Maybe neither in the party are interested in being Married.
Yes there is Common Law but only if they live together for a long peroid of time (7 years here I think). What if they each still enjoy living alone with the occasional sleep overs?
I think a lot of the problems with the system today is that people get Married becuase it is expected of them.

that!
It is a mutual choice and that should be respected by the Couple's Parents, friends and Society.

In other words there is no max so mind your own

business

So how's everyone doing today?

Kelkhil

The Shirtless Forsaken

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 9:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SlyC:
Just wondering where you're coming from, Zeek.

Pretty much watching a 4 year relationship implode because of the marriage issue.

The thing is they knew it was a problem after 2 years but they were able to look the other way for another 2 years. Now the family has pushed the envelope and it's pretty obvious to me they're done for now. The guy is taking days to decide what he wants to do. The girl has been ready for 2 years. I don't see how she could feel good about it even if all of a sudden he says, "yeah I think we should get married" at this point. It's clear that he's either not ready or doesn't want to marry her.

The problem is that it's sooooo hard on them to break up now. They've spent the last 4 years together. They aren't meant to be together but they really really like each other. So, now the break up is just awful.

That's why there should be a max. Deep down I think they both knew this day would come. They just didn't want to face it. Since they didn't it just kept getting harder and harder.

Nothing is finalized with them yet, but it just makes you wonder if there's a time when you should both put the brakes on and deal with the fact that you aren't right for each other.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 10:13 AM

SLYC

If the couple has different ideas about what a relationship is and the issue's not going to resolve then it's time to put on the brakes. It's tough and I feel for them both and wish them both the best possible outcome!

Politics is the showbiz of industry.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 10:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SlyC:
If the couple has different ideas about what a relationship is and the issue's not going to resolve then it's time to put on the brakes. It's tough and I feel for them both and wish them both the best possible outcome!

It's just a mess of problems really. The guy never got to live the bachelor life out of school cause they were dating a little bit before he graduated straight on to now. He seems to want to live the bachelor life for a while and he won't know how much he'll miss her until then but by then it will be too late. Plus neither of their parents really like the other one. There are cultural issues there too. It's just one big mess. She's religious and wants kids raised that way. He isn't so he doesn't want to raise kids that way. He wants to be free to travel at a moments notice. That's not her thing.

It's just hard for them because on a day to day basis those things aren't issues. They're only issues in the long run. So, while they were wearing blinders to those issues it was a good relationship. Now the blinders are off and it's a mess.

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 10:47 AM

KELKHIL

See now there is the real problem then Zeek.

It isn't that they have been dating for 4 years with no real path. It is that he wants to be a "bachelor" and is non-religious while she is going almost the exact other direction.

Don't get me wrong, people that are moving in different paths can find each other and be happy. It just doesn't sound like this is one of those stories.

He wants to be single, plain and simple. She and the Parents want a "date" set and it is not something he is ready to do.

Religion could be overlooked (well not overlooked but worked with) if they can mutually come up with and agreeable solution (but that doesn't soond likely in this case).

sorry for your friends, but with this new information, their life (yes it does become a single entity at some point (don't ask me when, ask my wife

)) is pretty much on the outs.

Just remember it is no one person's fault, they are just not the right fit for each other. Maybe in a few years if they reconnect it could work concidering the connection they had to stay together this long.

It looks to me as though they have found their crossroads and it might just be time to walk their own paths and see where life takes them.

Kelkhil

The Shirtless Forsaken

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kelkhil:
It looks to me as though they have found their crossroads and it might just be time to walk their own paths and see where life takes them.

Yep but I think they had enough information to know that 2 years ago. The delay just made everything harder on them now. That's where the max idea came in. Is there a time where it's like "you have enough info to know whether or not you're going someplace with this or not"?

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Tuesday, September 4, 2007 1:50 PM