Thoughts on the CE commentary? by MerryK

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Thoughts on the CE commentary?

POSTED BY: MERRYK
UPDATED: Thursday, September 20, 2007 07:10
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VIEWED: 1998
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Wednesday, September 19, 2007 8:49 AM

I just found time to watch Serenity with the new commentary. There were some quite funny bits and interesting bits, but one thing struck me in particular: during Simon's "death" speech, Joss talks about how the character of Simon is a fantasy on scale with River the Reaver Slayer, because no one could be that dedicated and selfless. Now frankly, this really bothered me. There are hundreds of examples throughout history of people who give up their lives in service of a cause or a people, and Joss seemed to be saying that no one could be like that. And it's not like Simon has no regrets or bitterness about it all...if he had, I might be willing to accept Joss' statement. But the way it was, it felt like a slap in the face to all the selfless people who have lived and who still live.

Now when it comes to River...well, realistic is a longshot, but not impossible, and I think Joss may be self-deprecating. Yes, it's fiction. But Simon? I like to give the human race a little more credit than Joss seems to.

Any thoughts? Any other areas of the commentary that made people think? I love commentaries, but discussing them is almost as fun as listening to them.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:15 PM

ANONYMOUS1

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
but one thing struck me in particular: during Simon's "death" speech, Joss talks about how the character of Simon is a fantasy on scale with River the Reaver Slayer, because no one could be that dedicated and selfless. Now frankly, this really bothered me. There are hundreds of examples throughout history of people who give up their lives in service of a cause or a people, and Joss seemed to be saying that no one could be like that.

Yes, it struck me too. Maybe Joss couldn't see himself doing anything else but screaming in pain if he was gutshot. So he thinks most people would do that. And the fantasy is that we all wish we could hold it together while dying.

I listened to the commentary several times now. it is very shiny.

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Wednesday, September 19, 2007 7:42 PM

REGINAROADIE

I have not listened to that commentary track yet (I have a very big stack of DVD's to get through and the SERENITY CE isn't exactly high on my list), but I do have very strong opinions about Simon and River.

Personally, I never found River to be that interesting of a character. For the most part, all she does is just stand in a corner and babble, and occasionally inflict physical harm. Now, I'd be OK with this if in fact she actually made decisions for herself. But when you see everyone else fighting over her and making decisions for her, it makes her a boring character. How ar we supposed to believe that the fate of the verse is in her hands when she's being lead around by everyone else. Simon, on the other hand I find much more intersting, because he does make decisions for himself. He chose to save River and give up his life of luxury. He chose to use his resources to free her and to get her away. Of all the BDM's, he is the most noble of them all. And yet he's constantly shit upon, but he never breaks. Maybe he does have his moments of doubt and pain, but he'd never show it.

It doesn't exactly surprise me that Joss would say something like that since he is an atheist, and even though he's quick with the comedy at times he does come off at times like a miserable bastard. Maybe not on the same level as David Chase with THE SOPRANOS (Chase is pitch black in comparison to Joss who has at least one shaft of light amidst the darkness he creates). And one of the big themes of SERENITY and his work is a demolishment of that sort of blind faith in something bigger than yourself and a promotion of independent thinking. Now while I agree with the independent thinking part, I do disagree with the "no one can be that selfless". Like you've said, there have been examples throughout history of people totally willing to give themselves over to a cause or people or something higher than themselves.

Personally, while I like Joss' work and respect him as a writer and director, there are some POV's of him and stuff that I personally disagree with because it goes against my experiences and beliefs. Like in the commentary track for "OiS", he talks about how it was CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND that convinced him that there was no God. To which I thought "For a very smart guy, that has got to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard." Because when I saw that movie when I was 12 or 13, I had the opposite reaction. I thought that the whole movie was a metaphor for spirituality. That by stopping being selfish, eliminating your ego and completely giving oneself over to something bigger than yourself, that one can attain a level of transcendence and spiritual connection.

But you really can't change that. Even if I were to meet him, ask him "You lost your faith in God because of CE3K?", hear his side and then state mine, I know I'm not going to change his mind. In my experience, once someone's mind is made up about something, you can't change it. You can state your case and make a persuasive argument, but at the very most the other person will go "I'll keep that in mind."

But, writers and directors have been wrong about their creations before, and this is just another case. Even though Joss and the crew might think of him as a chump or schmuck, we the fans know that he is probably the most admirable of all the BDH's.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:34 PM

LWAVES

Quote:
Originally posted by reginaroadie:
Personally, I never found River to be that interesting of a character. For the most part, all she does is just stand in a corner and babble, and occasionally inflict physical harm. Now, I'd be OK with this if in fact she actually made decisions for herself. But when you see everyone else fighting over her and making decisions for her, it makes her a boring character. How ar we supposed to believe that the fate of the verse is in her hands when she's being lead around by everyone else.

Whilst I can see the point you are making here, I have to disagree. If the series had continued as planned over several seasons, River would have gradually become stronger and less reliant on the others, and maybe eventually become the strongest of them all (not just physically). As I'm sure you know River is an emotional and mental wreck at the start of the series. Simon mentions in Ariel (I think) that she feels everything and is unable to control it, so she reacts in some way, whether it be babbling or attacking someone.

It was this among many things that made River my favourite character, and there were hints at 'coherency' in War Stories and Objects In Space.
If only there'd been time to develop it more gradually...

As for the commentary on the CE, I enjoyed it although Summer was a little quiet and she was one I was interested in hearing. Nathan was funny as always. Having said that I preferred Joss's solo commentary, it had more detail as he had all the movie to tell his stories with no interruptions.

"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Wednesday, September 19, 2007 11:15 PM

WYTCHCROFT

yeah - remember angel, in buffy series III?
in the corner babbling to start with -
countless other whedonverse examples, these characters ALWAYS developed...

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Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:23 AM

MERRYK

Wow, Reginaroadie, thanks for your great post! I never thought about putting it down to his atheism, but that's probably the best explanation.

Now, as for River, I have to disagree. Saying that she's uninteresting because she doesn't make decisions for herself, when we consider her situation, is like saying that Zoe doesn't make decisions during Out of Gas until the last moment (because she was unconscious). One of the things I'm glad Joss did with River was make her realistic...when you are mentally ill, you can't just do what you want or what the plot wants. Because of what has been done to her, River often cannot make decisions for herself. If that was all she was, then sure, I'd agree with you that our only interest in her is because she's Simon's catalyst.

But, Joss didn't make her the stereotypical mentally ill person who is no longer a person either. River is still there, her personality and her self, and she is constantly in a battle between those parts of her and her fractured mind. We don't really see this until Safe, in that heartbreaking scene where she tells Simon how much she knows that she's broken and that it's hard for him. Simon was given a short stick, no doubt about it (and we do see him have a moment of regret in OiS), but River's is shorter. She has to fight, every moment of her life, for the least semblance of sanity. She can't hope for any more than that. Even with the right medication (like in the BDM), she's still mentally ill, and she has to fight to live.

And we see her do just that. Objects in Space was just about that, seeing River starting to deal with herself in a positive way. And then we have one of the most beautiful scenes in the whole series and movie, when she decides to go face a bunch of Reaver's because it's "her turn". I am moved to tears every time I see that, because River is more than just a wilting crazy flower; she's a wilting crazy flower who wants to be more, and who will fight for that.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:46 AM

REGINAROADIE

As Ed McMahon would say "You are correct, sir!" The only times I found River to be interesting is when she actually DOES something of her own accord. Like in "War Stories" when she guns down Niska's men, or in OiS" when she messes with Early, or in the BDM when she leaps through the blast doors to get Simon's bag. That's when the real her shines through.

But those moments are few and far between. If the show had lasted much longer I imagine River would have become a stronger and more dynamic character, but for now she's just a chess piece moved around. I actually like Summer more as Tess in THE 4400. Yeah she was slightly nuts, but at least she was in control of her faculties for the most part. So when this season she took a 50's diner hostage and kept waiting for some guy named Bobby to show up, you can't help but feel your heart breaking for her. There's a slightly tragic element to Tess, which while it is in River, it's much more annunciated in THE 4400.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Thursday, September 20, 2007 7:10 AM

SMAUG

You know.. I was really suprised when I listened to Joss's commentary on Serenity the first time around.

I thought.. ok.. here is a movie I love.. and here Joss the man giving his commentary on it.. this is going to be GREAT!! What I learned was that there is a very good reason why it's best to have at least TWO people do a commentary.

It seems that it's rare for one person to be able to pull off a great commentary track. Ron Moore is one person I believe can... I was really disappointed with Joss's though.. No offense Joss.. but just saying it like it is.

I have only listened to it once.. so maybe I am not giving him enough credit.. but the one thing that I remember about Joss's commentary is thinking half way through it.. "OK.. ENOUGH ABOUT JACK GREENE!!!! Ok.. he did amazing work on Serenity.. but if I hear one more comment about Jack Greene's lighting.. I'm just going to turn the commentary off and forget about it." I didn't.. but went on to hear about 100 more times about how incredible Jack Greene is.

I just think that a commentary track really needs to mix up a lot of things:

1) Behind the scene tidbits... did something funny happen in this scene? is there a mistake in this scene that you might not ever catch if you didn't know about it. Is there an inside joke in this scene.. etc.

2) What was the commenator's favorite scene? Least favorite? Most difficult? What scene would you shoot again if you could? What scene can you watch over and over and over again? What scene didn't work the way you envisioned it? What scene was better? What scene may have happened by mistake (improvised)? etc. Why did certain scene's get cut? What scene would you now wish you could have shot?

3) SOME things about the technical aspect of a scene here or there... ie.. Jack Greene's lighting. Or the special effects or whatever.

4) What's the commentator's favorite about the musical score? Is there any music that didn't end up quite right?

And on and on... really mixing up the kind of info. But, depending upon who the commentator is, mainly focusing on what they can share that no one else could. In Joss's case.. I want to know why wrote what he did? What other ideas did he start with that didn't pan out? What all got cut out of the orignal 190 page treatment (or whatever the length was) and why? How did he come up with certain lines of dialog or what ones did he struggle with? I want to know all the behind the scenes ideas that may never even have made it onto paper.. let along the movie.

Now.. this is by no means a comprehensive list.. and I'm not saying that Joss didn't talk about ANY of those things.. I am sure he touched on all of them at least a little.. but I still walked away thinking I've had enough hearing about Jack Greene.

But it's not that I hated his commentary.. was just disappointed. I guess it's just not what I expected or hoped for.

Now.. onto the CE commentary.. Along with Joss adding Nathan, Adam, Summer and Ron.. taught me something else. It's better to have more than ONE commentator... but LESS than FIVE

. Altought I enjoyed this commentary much more than the original one of just Joss. Nathan is his funny goofy self as always. I like that Adam acutally asks Joss some questions along the way.. not too much like if there was a random fan sitting in on the commentary able to pop in a question here or there. But with 5 people.. Ron seemed almost non-existant. This might have as much to do with the fact that he was hardly in the movie. But also Summer. I think Summer added more than Ron, and I know she's kind of shy in real life. What she did add was always very sweet, but it didn't seem like it was very much. And half of what she did add.. if I remember correctly.. is because one of the other actors would ask her a question about something. I also got the sence that this commentary could have been even 10 times better.. if it were filmed two years ago right after it came out rather than now.

But anway.. I thought it was much more enjoyable than the orginal commentary.. but with 5 people.. I almost wish they would have split them up into smaller groups and done multiple commentaries. It would be incredible to have multiple commentaries with Joss and just two other actors at a time.

Maybe they can do it that way with the SUPER CE with Morena, Jewel, Sean, Alan and Gina.

Smaug..

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