Evils of the World by theheroofcanton

I was as hesitant as anyone to call G. W. evil until he announced that he wanted to amend the Constitution of the United States in the name of hate. The Constitution is something of a sacred document. There isn't any hate in it. Banning one segment of our society from the rights and priviledges of the rest of society based on their sexual identity is discrimination, pure and simple. His proposed amendment to ban gay marriage is driven by his hatred of homosexuality. That is as close to a fact as an emotional reality can be. And that is just evil. If he were to manage to get his amendment written into law, he would taint one of the sacred documents that belong to the people of the Earth. Y'see what I'm saying? That would be an evil day for us as human beings. And Bush is doing his part to make that day a reality.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
1. Big, rich people who dont care about working stiffs

The largest tax cut for the poor since Reagan suggests this isn’t true.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
2. Greedy corporations with sneering 'behind-the-scenes' men (Halliburton and Ol' Dick)

What constitutes a “greedy corporation” in your world? One that makes a lot of money or one that wants to make a lot of money? Because every business falls into one or two of these categories; even if all they do is fly around looking for work. This has nothing to do with Bush.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
3. Attacking someone without adaquate reason (and before this turns into a flamewar, yeah, I know Saddam was a bad, bad man; but correct me if I'm wrong-and I know I'm not- none of the Sept 11 boys were Iraqi, and no WMD's have been found)

17 UN Resolutions, 2 invasions of neighboring states, an attempt to assassinate a former American president, the murder and rape of millions of innocent people says you’re wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I was as hesitant as anyone to call G. W. evil until he announced that he wanted to amend the Constitution of the United States in the name of hate.

You mean amend the Constitution for State’s Rights. At the base of the gay marriage issue is not whether the Constitution should forbid a certain group the right to perform certain action. What is at the heart is whether a judge in one state has the right to tell every other state how to govern themselves. That is precisely the concept behind the history that Firefly was based on, according to Whedon.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:28 AM

KNIBBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Now stop insulting our fighting men and women, some of whom are here on this board, by claiming their Commander in Chief who sent them into harm's way is more evil then the murdering fanatical bastards they're saving the world from. It aint polite.

Sorry, that bucket of logic holds no water. I support the troops.I want them to live. I want them to succeed.

However unlike the people who can't look at the dead and maimed without clinging to the flimsiest justification to give the sacrifice meaning, I'll admit that the mission they are on is a lie. Our President and his entire pack of war profiteers are liars.

He's killing our troops for a lie and that lie is built around revenge, money, oil and power. Throw in a dash of fundamentalist Dominionism and you've summed up the smirky liar's cabal.

I want our troops to come home safely. Come home to the families who love them and the nation that needs them to vote the murdering millionaires out of the white house.

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS -- IMPEACH BUSH

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:37 AM

ROCKETJOCK

Unfortunately, any thread discussing who is the most evil person in the world cannot help but devolve into a political discusssion.

For the record, anyone interested in where our Duly Appointed President fits into the top ten evil list should read a book entitled Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President by J.H. Hatfield, Soft Skull Press, and make their own decisions. The original St. Martin's Press edition is hard to find, as the company shredded most of it under pressure from the current administration. Welcome to the Land of the Free.

By the way, enjoy your vote while you have it. The washington power brokers are pushing for Electronic Voting w/out a paper trail; the company most likely to get the contract is ChoicePoint. If the name sounds familiar, it's because they handled the 2000 election in Florida.

A constitutional republic. It was a good idea while it lasted...

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:46 AM

TEELABROWN

Quote:
I'm surprised that anyone who likes Firefly would dislike George Bush so much

I actually feel sorry for him. People (Me included, but very little) always lampooning him.

Very sorry.

My Evils of the World:
Microsoft and Windows.

P.S. Hero- I now need a new nickname for theheroofcanton.

_____________
"Freedom is the Freedom to say that 2 plus 2 make 4. If that is granted, all else follws"-Winston, 1984
Teela Brown, keeper of bad typing.
"No one reads these things any way."- Bart on Blackboard

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 5:26 AM

APEMAN61

Well whether or not you like bush, I think he's much better than kerry. You may not agree with his ideas, but at least he has them and sticks to them. Kerry seems to go back and forth on everything he says. At one moment he's for the way at another he's against it and claiming that he never was a supporter of the war. It's insane. you dont like bush's stand on gay marriage, well at least he has one. Kerry just dances around it. Me personally I support Bush. I think what he's doing in Iraq and Afganistan is the right thing. He taking evil men out of power.
It drives me insane when people compare bush to saddam. Did Bush have a damn torture center inside our Olympic headquarters? Does Bush use virtually all the country's money to build palaces for himself? does bush murder his own people? So how the fuck does he compare to Saddam?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 5:54 AM

SEVENPERCENT

I'll take these one at a time

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
The largest tax cut for the poor since Reagan suggests this isn’t true.

Ahh, yes, the tax cut for the poor- Of which the poor saw almost nothing; His middle class tax cut (of which I am firmly in the middle class and saw no change) which only weakened the economy- He's a real trooper for the impoverished, that guy- His failure to provide adaquate education for poor children (no child left behind is not helping them)

Quote:
What constitutes a “greedy corporation” in your world? One that makes a lot of money or one that wants to make a lot of money? Because every business falls into one or two of these categories; even if all they do is fly around looking for work. This has nothing to do with Bush.

Let's see, Enron's secret dealings with its former officer, Ken Lay, and the VP Dick Cheney over energy; of which we later saw Enron tank and burn its employees with nothing even resembling a just punishment for those responsible (see GW about the poor, above)- Oh, and while we speak of Cheney, I'll just drop Halliburton, who somehow manages to land all these contracts that no one else gets to bid on- Oh and I almost forgot Rumsfeld's connection to the company that sold nuclear reactor parts to Korea- These are all facts, look them up (I suggest tompaine.com, or something similar, I dont think you'll find them on the White House website)

Quote:
17 UN Resolutions, 2 invasions of neighboring states, an attempt to assassinate a former American president, the murder and rape of millions of innocent people says you’re wrong.

First, one of the attempted invasions of other countries you're referring to better not be Iran, because if you remember, we helped them in that one- We gave Saddam the key to the city of Detroit in the 80's to honor him- Also, not to defend the evil piece of shit, but we used to try to assassinate folks too (it's only recently we gave that up, and GW wanted to repeal that Exec. Order that stops us-)- As far as the murder of innocent people? Dont you dare use that argument- If you think Iraq is the greatest civil rights violator in the world, you dont even deserve to post on this thread- Besides, not to sound callous, but they were his own people, and it's not like they helped us take him down- It's not like they started a revolution and we helped them; those people sat and watched while we did it, cheered that he was gone, and then started killing US troops-

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 6:06 AM

KNIBBLET

Quote:
Questions posed originally by Apeman61:

Q.Did Bush have a damn torture center inside our Olympic headquarters?
A. No, his torture center is at Guantanamo Bay. Sending suspects to allied countries with poor human rights records to be questioned also counts against him in my books.

Q. Does Bush use virtually all the country's money to build palaces for himself?
A. No, but he is spending $70 Billion to prop up his buddy Dick's Halliburton.

Q. Does bush murder his own people?
A. No, but he's willing to set them up for murder and through that exposure, kill other Americans. The exposure of a CIA operative working in counter terrorism came from inside the White House.
Valerie Plame, wife of retired Ambassador Joseph Wilson, was exposed when her husband dared to point out that the President was using intelligence which had proven to be crude forgeries.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 6:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Apeman61:
It drives me insane when people compare bush to saddam. Did Bush have a damn torture center inside our Olympic headquarters? Does Bush use virtually all the country's money to build palaces for himself? does bush murder his own people? So how the fuck does he compare to Saddam?

This is a good point.

I know that some people disagree with Bush. I don’t mind honest disagreements. But there is a big difference between honest and fair criticism and lacking such a basic understanding of the world that you are unable to recognize the difference between Bush and Hussein. Comparing the two, much less placing Bush below Saddam makes you look fanatical and silly. Not to put too fine a point on it.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Ahh, yes, the tax cut for the poor- Of which the poor saw almost nothing; His middle class tax cut (of which I am firmly in the middle class and saw no change) which only weakened the economy- He's a real trooper for the impoverished, that guy- His failure to provide adaquate education for poor children (no child left behind is not helping them)

Actually the poor saw the largest percentage of the cut, in fact over twice the percentage given to the wealthy. And following the tax cut the economy began to pick up which suggests that the tax cut was one of, if not the sole, reason the economy improved. And public education has never been adequate for underprivileged schools. No Child Left Behind may or may not be working, but at least it was an attempt to change things.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Let's see, Enron's secret dealings with its former officer, Ken Lay, and the VP Dick Cheney over energy; of which we later saw Enron tank and burn its employees with nothing even resembling a just punishment for those responsible (see GW about the poor, above)- Oh, and while we speak of Cheney, I'll just drop Halliburton, who somehow manages to land all these contracts that no one else gets to bid on- Oh and I almost forgot Rumsfeld's connection to the company that sold nuclear reactor parts to Korea- These are all facts, look them up (I suggest tompaine.com, or something similar, I dont think you'll find them on the White House website)

I don’t need to look them up, I know where you are getting all this stuff. But none of it is an indictment of the Bush Administration. I can give you a list a mile long of the appearance of as well as evidence of impropriety in the Clinton Administration. Some was legitimate, some wasn’t. Stated without corroborating evidence and direct association, it is basically just an anti-capitalist conspiracy theory.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
First, one of the attempted invasions of other countries you're referring to better not be Iran, because if you remember, we helped them in that one-

We did not make the decision for him. Saddam Hussein made the choice to invade a neighboring country. That had absolutely nothing to do with the US.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
we used to try to assassinate folks too (it's only recently we gave that up, and GW wanted to repeal that Exec. Order that stops us-)-

So, what difference does that make? Attempted murder of a former American president is still cause for war.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
As far as the murder of innocent people? Dont you dare use that argument-

Why shouldn’t I dare use that argument? Because you have no legitimate counter? Saddam Hussein is responsible for the intentional and unprovoked targeting and murdering of hundreds of thousands of innocent people including women and children. I’m sorry that you feel these people were not important enough to be angry about, but I do.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
If you think Iraq is the greatest civil rights violator in the world, you dont even deserve to post on this thread- Besides, not to sound callous, but they were his own people, and it's not like they helped us take him down- It's not like they started a revolution and we helped them; those people sat and watched while we did it, cheered that he was gone, and then started killing US troops-

I see. So innocent children deserved to be murdered by Saddam Hussein? I think we can all see where you’re coming from on this, but I will not be agreeing with this short-sighted view.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 6:15 AM

MERLINDREA

Quote:
It's not like they started a revolution and we helped them; those people sat and watched while we did it, cheered that he was gone, and then started killing US troops

For everyone interested in reading what Iraqis think about the whole situation, there is a great blog: healingiraq.blogspot.com by a young Iraqi dentist. He also links to several other blogs, both Iraqi and American soldiers in Iraq. It shows that - like always - only the ones with the shouting voices (and hostages) are heard, not the much bigger population of folks who just want to live in peace.

One comment regarding the Bush vs Saddam comparison. I agree that Bush's deeds cannot be compared with Saddam - he, as far as we know, didn't torture anyone, for instance.

However, the issue is that Bush, with probably the best intentions, I give him that, has unfortunately much more power to wreak havoc on the whole world. Look what we have now in Iraq - its no longer a problem of only Iraqis, not even only the Middle East, but the whole world - japanese hostages, Madrid bombings, suspected planned attacks in Rome... Somehow the world, that was largely united just after 9/11, is more fractionated than ever...

It depends on how you define "evil" I guess. It goes back to one of the big philosophical questions: Is evil to do evil with good intentions? Or is evil to do good but with evil intentions?

Merl

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 6:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hmm... 500 ppl own 50% (yes, 50%) of the world's assets. So 4 billion folks (not counting China and Russia) work for the benefit of 0.00000001% of the population, while the the infrastructure tanks and the world approaches thermal runaway.

Any system that allows that is evil. You fill in the blank as to what that system is.

Don't forget, the basis of FF is that the old earth was "used up" (I actually wonder if they don't mean "blown up"... the source of all those planetoids circling a star at about earth distance), and we are heading in that direction.

Yippee hooray for the people.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 6:33 AM

The situation in Iraq has devolved only because pro-totalitarian forces within Iraq are afraid of what might happen if a legitimate Iraqi government is installed. There has always been terrorism and hostages. The Iraq war didn’t start these things. Prior to an invasion of Iraq there were dozens of terrorists groups; many of them acting worldwide against Spanish, Italian, Japanese, American, ect interests often with little to no substantial impediment. Today many terrorist networks are retaliating against what is a real and substantial threat to their existence.

One should not expect terrorists and criminals who seek to kill innocent people for their bigoted views to disappear quietly, and one should also be careful of labeling the fight against such violent bigotry as evil.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 6:38 AM

SEVENPERCENT

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I know where you are getting all this stuff. But none of it is an indictment of the Bush Administration. I can give you a list a mile long of the appearance of as well as evidence of impropriety in the Clinton Administration. Some was legitimate, some wasn’t. Stated without corroborating evidence and direct association, it is basically just an anti-capitalist conspiracy theory.

Not indicting him, just telling you why folks dont like him- Also, do not put me in the camp of the tinfoil hat brigade because you dont like the facts- I am neither anti-capitalist nor am I uncritical of the Clinton administration- The facts are that the administration has close ties to several corporations that are running roughshod over the American people and doing irreparable damage to the working class- You're using fallacies here, and you're busted-

Quote:
We did not make the decision for him. Saddam Hussein made the choice to invade a neighboring country. That had absolutely nothing to do with the US.

So let me get this straight- If we help a country that invades another, we're not responsible? Since we provided Saddam with nerve agents he used on his own people, we're not responsible for their deaths? We supply the guns and ammunition to fight a war and it has nothing to do with us? To quote a movie line, "Sorry Hans, wrong guess" - We may not be pulling the trigger, but the blood is on our hands too-

Quote:
As far as the murder of innocent people? Dont you dare use that argument-

You took that quote out of context, it went with the other that said there are worse human rights violators in the world that we arent attacking(try China, try N. Korea)- And if you go back, I never said that Saddam was a saint, nor did I compare GW to him- If you use the argument that you and you alone care about the suffering of little children, I'll pass your sainthood recommendation along to His Holiness asap- Of course I care, you're just being asinine here- We all care about innocent people being killed, but the answer is how to help them best and stabilize the region while protecting ourselves, and to that end we are sorely lacking-

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 6:53 AM

Here's a sad story from a friend of mine who likes to travel. He was on a plane sitting next to a soldier stationed in Iraq. This soldier told him that they only get one meal a day over there and that his family had to raise the money to pay for his bullet proof vest. So where's all the billions of dollars going that we're supposedly spending on the war? Somebody's getting rich.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 6:58 AM

APEMAN61

This is getting a little heated eh? Maybe we should all just calm down a bit. And agree to disagree as it were. 'Cause it looks like everyone has their own opinions and arguing ain't going to do anything. The way it is is the way it is and it's not going to be changed by yelling at eachother.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 7:01 AM

Oh, and I make about 22 thousand dollars a year, which qualifies me as poor. And I saw nothing like a tax break last year. Nothing. I owed.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 7:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Speaking of heat....

Temperature is a subjective thing (albeit within a limited range for neurotypical ppl). What feels hot to you may feel warm to me. Fortunately, we have thermometers where we can look at a thrid thing and agree on a numerical value, no matter what it "feels" like.

I suggest we stick to facts as much as possible. Where someone has a fact (not an opinion) that counters ours, let's try to resolve exactly WHAT we're talking about, before resorting to baseless assertions, ad hominem arguments, and insinuation.

And where we DO have an ethic that is driving our opinion (and we all do) let's try to be honest about it.

My ethics are:

There is only this world... don't expect the supernatural to reward, punish, or rescue us.

Reward promotes work, punishment promotes avoidance.

Humans are a SOCIAL species, with all of the biology that goes along with cooperation, competition, rank, and exclusion. "Human nature" (human neurology) includes within it intrinsic rewards for cooperation (the opiate centers "light up" by fMRI) as well as rewards for competition.

What we reward, and what we punish, determines what kind of society we build. We often call on the supernatural or human nature to support our self-created definitions of "evil" and "good", but these appeals to a higher authority are baseless.

Many people acting together is not the same as the average of all these people acting individually. We create systems that outlive us by many generations, as we need to understand and govern these systems.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 7:39 AM

LIZ

some extra info on costs
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3775686/
and on the flip side
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3072945/

edit: oh, btw, this in reference to equipment costs for soldiers

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 8:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
By the way, enjoy your vote while you have it. The washington power brokers are pushing for Electronic Voting w/out a paper trail; the company most likely to get the contract is ChoicePoint. If the name sounds familiar, it's because they handled the 2000 election in Florida.

IIRC they had problems with the paper ballot system thay had in place that required people to punch out a paper chad on a punch card... the punch cards can then be read electronically. With the punch cards they can do manual recounts. The big problem was that people were confused by the ballot form and how the chads maynot have been punched out completely (hanging chad).

Hopefully they've instituted changes in FL to correct their problems.

In Rhode Island we used to use the old fashioned flip-the-switch ballot booths until 1998 where we switch to optical scan ballots that are easy to read, easy to mark and can be rescanned or manually recounted.

I can see where a paper-less voting system can be hacked all to easily... you may as well go play a video slot machine... it would be like nothing more than a video game that's rigged so the house wins.

Jaymes

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 8:17 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

As Apeman61 said - "And agree to disagree as it were. 'Cause it looks like everyone has their own opinions and arguing ain't going to do anything. The way it is is the way it is and it's not going to be changed by yelling and eachother."

I couldn't agree more - people generally have their positions on things, and arguing in a chat room won't change that. It's still kind of fun, though...

Would this be a bad time to bring up my hatred of the corruption in the Catholic Church? :-)

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 8:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Before you change the world, you have to change your mind, or the minds of others.

Why were the pyramids built? Wouldn't the people have been better off digging more irrigation canals? They were built because of an IDEA.

Why did the Catholic Church become such a power? Wouldn't the world have been better off if the Pope had actually followed Jesus' precepts and actually helped the poor? It was all because of an IDEA.

Why do we allow corporations to run roughshod over almost everyine in the world, and at the same time destroy the biological diversity that we all depend on? Because of an IDEA.

It's important to disagree and to discuss. People do sometimes unchain their minds.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 8:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Oh, and I make about 22 thousand dollars a year, which qualifies me as poor. And I saw nothing like a tax break last year. Nothing. I owed.
QUOTE]

HK, I don't know if you have kids or not but we got ours...
From the www.irs.gov website...
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=111546,00.html

We have 2 children... and probably paid out more in taxes than HK did and so we wound up getting money back... it was basically an extra refund that came in during the summer. And it wouldn't have mattered if we made $50K, $100K or $1 mil. It was a set amount for the number of children. So $400 is a larger percentage comparatively for lower income than for larger income.

Jaymes

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 8:32 AM

I think that there is one fundamental fallacy that is in this thread. Namely, that GW is the president. There was a Scottish newspaper that described him as the unpresident and I tend to agree. After all, aren't presidents voted in?

And yes, I do think he is evil.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/01/2
6/hsorensen.DTL

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 9:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I think that there is one fundamental fallacy that is in this thread. Namely, that GW is the president. There was a Scottish newspaper that described him as the unpresident and I tend to agree. After all, aren't presidents voted in?

And yes, I do think he is evil.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/01/2
6/hsorensen.DTL

This is such tired old propaganda. George Bush, whether you agree with him or not, legitimately won the election. He was not appointed. He had more votes in Florida then Gore and he won Florida, thereby winning the Electoral College. This is a fact. It is also a fact that Gore tried hard to get re-count after recount in primarily Democrat-supporting counties of Florida and suppress largely pro-Bush military ballets, which was an attempt to push the election in his favor. The Supreme Court did not appoint George Bush; it put an end to Gore’s attempted hi-jacking of the election, preserving Bush’s lead.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 9:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Not indicting him, just telling you why folks dont like him- Also, do not put me in the camp of the tinfoil hat brigade because you dont like the facts-

What facts? I put you in that category because you don’t have any facts. What you have is supposition, the bases of any good conspiracy theory.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
So let me get this straight- If we help a country that invades another, we're not responsible? Since we provided Saddam with nerve agents he used on his own people, we're not responsible for their deaths? We supply the guns and ammunition to fight a war and it has nothing to do with us?

Like I said we didn’t make the decision for him to invade Iran. He did that all on his own. That had nothing to do with us.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
You took that quote out of context, it went with the other that said there are worse human rights violators in the world that we arent attacking(try China, try N. Korea)-

They don’t have 17 UN Resolutions against them, do they?

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
And if you go back, I never said that Saddam was a saint, nor did I compare GW to him- If you use the argument that you and you alone care about the suffering of little children, I'll pass your sainthood recommendation along to His Holiness asap- Of course I care, you're just being asinine here- We all care about innocent people being killed, but the answer is how to help them best and stabilize the region while protecting ourselves, and to that end we are sorely lacking-

Stop with the self-righteous BS, you’re the one who tried to dismiss Saddam’s atrocities with the old “they deserved it” line. I’m not going to support you if you intend to paint with such a broad brush. The majority of the people Saddam killed were innocent women and children, not militants. And that is the difference between us and them.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 9:32 AM

Finn:
I find it interesting that you comment on my voted in comment, but fail to address the evil comment.

Also, could you provide a link supporting your claim please.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 9:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Finn:
I find it interesting that you comment on my voted in comment, but fail to address the evil comment.

Also, could you provide a link supporting your claim please.

Attempts to label Bush, or any American President, as “evil” are generally fanatical comments driven by a one-sided political agenda. Throwing up a link and yelling fire will probably not get my attention.

As for you request of a supporting material I offer, to start with, US Supreme Court Case, Bush vs Gore.
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-949.ZPC.html

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Ahh, yes, the tax cut for the poor- Of which the poor saw almost nothing; His middle class tax cut (of which I am firmly in the middle class and saw no change) which only weakened the economy- He's a real trooper for the impoverished, that guy- His failure to provide adaquate education for poor children (no child left behind is not helping them)
Quote:

See my previous post about the 2003 Advanced Child Tax Credit.

And as far as education is concerned... education begins in the home. Barring that, hopefully you can find really good daycare that is more than just a babysitting service... a pre-school that encourages fun in learning... I don't mean a pre-school that tries to have kids ready for college by First Grade. I've seen some of those where 4 yr olds have homework to do. But one that give kids a way of experiencing the things around them and promotes their creativity individually and collectively as a class.

Here is a fact sheet on No Child Left Behind Act of 2001.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/20020108.html
Excerpts:
— Accountability for Results: Creates strong standards in each state for what every child should know and learn in reading and math in grades 3-8. Student progress and achievement will be measured for every child, every year.

— Unprecedented State & Local Flexibility & Reduced Red Tape: Provides new flexibility for all 50 states and every local school district in America in the use of federal education funds.

— Focusing Resources on Proven Educational Methods: Focuses educational dollars on proven, research-based approaches that will most help children to learn.

— Expanded Choices for Parents: Enhances options for parents with children in chronically failing schools - and makes these options available immediately in the 2002-03 school year for students in thousands of schools already identified as failing under current law.
-------------------------------------------------

The fed gov may give out $$$ for education but their job is not to micromanage the education system in the country. Their job is to set equitable policies that we can abide by. They set up some standards... if the education systems can meet those standards then that is adequate. If they are below then they have problems. If they exceed, then they've got it goin on.

Any blame for inadequate education systems should be directed to those who are immediately responsible, the teachers, the school administration, the city or town school boards who control the money. If they are not getting the job done, more times than not, it's not how much money they spend, but how they are getting the kids to learn. I've seen schools adopt curriculums that don't work, but they won't see the result of it right away. Look at the Whole Word/Phonics situation that happened in California as the best example.

I don't know how local and state funding work for your local area, but I do know that for Rhode Island it leaves much to be desired. Historically, the State Board of Ed. has little real control over how money is utilized in the individual town school budgets. The state does not have an equitable distribution of funds to each town's school system. Each town's School Board controls the budget, the hiring of teachers, and some of the curriculum. Each town has to negotiate teacher contracts with the teacher's union. The high school curriculum in some towns have only 2 years of English, social studies, and math as a minimum and physical education is 4 yrs. Some towns have had to drop music and art from the curriculum, oh but they kept athletics.

I'm just so glad that my town cares about the whole education of the kids. My daughters' elementary school has a great reading program that goes beyond just the textbook. And I just co-officiate the 4th grade spelling bee and the kids had to go to the end of the 5th grade word list before we wound up with a winner.

A cpl yrs ago Massachusetts next door instituted MCAS testing for high school students before graduating and if the kids don't pass they can't graduate. The first year they did the testing but didn't enforce the no-pass, no grad. They gave the test to the teachers and many of them failed it miserably. They then used it as a way of determine if Teacher Education programs at colleges are getting the job done and many of them failed... so now in order to be a teacher in Mass you have to pass the MCAS. What does that say about their education systems? A certain talk-radio host in Boston uses the phrase "The Dumbing Down of America" quite a bit when he talks about education in his state.

If you still think it's a "not enough $$$" problem then ask where is all that lottery/casino/gambling money going to in your state coffers? Was it supposed to be for education? Oh, but it's all going into one big pot that your state legislature can use to give themselves pay raises and retirement benes. Did your state get big tobacco money? Where did that go? Oh, a few thousand for health education and the rest of the millions into the big pot that the state can spend anyway they like.

If you can characterize your state in less cynical or more flowery terms than more power to you.

Jaymes

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 10:18 AM

Sorry, not a extra refund for 2002, but an advance on our 2003 tax refund which was just filed yesterday...

Quote:
Originally posted by SamuraiX47:
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Oh, and I make about 22 thousand dollars a year, which qualifies me as poor. And I saw nothing like a tax break last year. Nothing. I owed.
QUOTE]

HK, I don't know if you have kids or not but we got ours...
From the www.irs.gov website...
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=111546,00.html

We have 2 children... and probably paid out more in taxes than HK did and so we wound up getting money back... it was basically an extra refund that came in during the summer. And it wouldn't have mattered if we made $50K, $100K or $1 mil. It was a set amount for the number of children. So $400 is a larger percentage comparatively for lower income than for larger income.

Jaymes

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Attempts to label Bush, or any American President, as “evil” are generally fanatical comments driven by a one-sided political agenda. Throwing up a link and yelling fire will probably not get my attention.

Well, did you read that article and the article that it linked to. If you did you would realize that at least there are some significant points made. And you analogy is rather extreme, don't you think.

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
As for you request of a supporting material I offer, to start with, US Supreme Court Case, Bush vs Gore.
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-949.ZPC.html

I'll read this one after I've done my work for the day and comment on it later.

But, the way in which you chose to respond to this specific request wasn't exactly friendly and one could say that it had a touch of arrogance to it. I only asked for evidence, which is entirely acceptable, IMHO. So, lets tone it down a touch, we're all browncoats here.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Well, did you read that article and the article that it linked to. If you did you would realize that at least there are some significant points made. And you analogy is rather extreme, don't you think.

Yes, I read the article. I don’t know about “the article that it linked to”. The article was basically trying to draw comparisons between Nazi Germany and the Bush Administration, which is not only hackneyed but also ridiculous. We are not Nazi Germany, ipso facto. I don’t appreciate these drive-by attempts to paint the Bush Administration as Nazis or Bush as Hitler. And that is an extremist one-sided view. It is exactly like my analogy. Such views are nothing short of screaming fire when there is no fire.

If you have an opinion, then write something up and present it to the board for consideration, and if it is intelligent and I have time, I’ll respond to it. But you can’t expect me or anyone else to respond to every crazy article you can pull off the web. That’s just impossible, you know? It’s got nothing personally to do with you.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But, the way in which you chose to respond to this specific request wasn't exactly friendly and one could say that it had a touch of arrogance to it. I only asked for evidence, which is entirely acceptable, IMHO. So, lets tone it down a touch, we're all browncoats here.

“I didn’t fight in no war.” --Jayne.

I thought I was being very friendly, consequently. And your request for evidence was very acceptable, which I responded to.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 12:48 PM

ZOID

Wow, really great invective, you guys! Keep up the hate!

Reminded me of some more of my most detested things about being in this world, in no particular order:

1. Ideological slaves from the far left who demonize everyone else for the evils of the world.

2. Ideological slaves from the far right who demonize everyone else for the evils of the world.

3. Fence-sitters in the middle who demonize everybody, right and left, for the evils of the world.

Umm, while I believe in political discourse, whether or not it's sane and educated, don't they have someplace else you can go and do it? You're all tying up precious bandwidth with regurgitated dogma, when this website is supposed to be about Firefly.

Go to MSN or Yahoo and vent spleen 'til you're red or blue in the face, depending upon affiliation; then pick up a party-sponsored placard and march; then face off against the counter-protestors and shout epithets at each other; then start throwing things -- bottles, rocks, etc. Meanwhile, the returning heros of our armed forces -- the ones who defend your freedom of speech from all enemies of Democracy with their lives -- are thinking, "What the f**k!?!".

Stubborn refusal to allow other people the right to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions: It's the American Way!

Oh, and if someone tries to make a point, BE SURE AND SHOUT THEM DOWN and insult them. That's sure to win them over to your way of thinking...

Now, imagine stating the opinions expressed here in Saddam's Iraq...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 1:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Wow, really great invective, you guys! Keep up the hate!

I may be somewhat new, but I don't see any hate here. I think 'hate' might be a little strong. I see disagreements. I think disagreements are acceptable, though. We all see the world from different points of view. It's not necessary that we agree with each other, or even respect each other's point of view, but we should respect the evidence and each other. And I see nothing to believe that is not being done. But as I said, I'm new.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 3:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
but we should respect the evidence and each other.

Quite frankly I don't see you doing that with regards to our particular discussion. Perhaps it is just the widening gap between our two cultures.

In Canada aggressive tones in discussion make it an argument. Since I tend to see a lot of aggression in your posts, this is an argument. I have tried to post without any aggression in them and I hope that they were taken as such.

To close, here is the link in which I referred.
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/timeline/nazifica.htm

And I hope that we can meet in another thread, in another discussion, on more hospitable terms.

Until then.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Wow, really great invective, you guys! Keep up the hate!

I take offense to that.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 3:24 PM

APEMAN61

So when Bush annexes Poland war will break out? I did not see that one coming.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 9, 2004 3:37 PM