GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Seeing sides of Mal in his crew

POSTED BY: MERRYK
UPDATED: Thursday, October 18, 2007 14:33
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Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:38 PM

MERRYK


I was just pondering why Mal keeps on the more annoying (to him at least) members of his crew...Jayne, Book, Simon...and noticed something that I thought was quite intriguing.

It is my theory that Mal surrounds himself with exaggerations of sides of himself.

He keeps Book as the representative of the side of him that believed strongly in something, the side that wasn't totally eradicated, however much he wants to admit it.

Jayne he keeps as a representative of Mal's pragmatic side, the side that just wants to live and not care about morals. Jayne also represents the side of Mal that tries to hide his true feelings beneath a crusty exterior.

Wash is Mal's sense of humor, the side of him that is prank-pulling and emotional and peace-loving.

And Simon? Surprisingly, when you look at it point by point, Simon is pretty much Mal raised in a wealthy household. Both of them have strong characters, both of them feel very deeply, both lose their faith in a manner that leaves them bitter, both would (and do) give up their lives figuratively in service of a cause, both of them are extremely loyal to those they consider family, both of them have dry and snarky wit, and both of them are a pretty clueless when it comes to relationships. Yes, Mal is good in combat and is better at thinking on his feet, and Simon beats Mal when it comes to nurturing/sensitivity and anything intellectual...but I think Mal can't help but keep Simon around because he sees a lot of himself in Simon.

Agree? Disagree?

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:03 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


I have to agree. But you forgot the women on Serenity.

There's Kaylee. She's the cheerful, some what innocent person that Mal was as a child and young man. He may not have been a mechanical genius, but most likely he was more than good at ranching. They both came from a rural background with strong, hardworking families behind them and I bet the young ladies of Shadow were more than ready to take a tumble with a young Mal.

Zoe, the soldier. Always loyal to her sergeant as Mal is to the Independent cause until he was disillusioned. She's his conscience and keep him on an even keel.

Inara is the hard one. Inara and Mal are perfect opposites and mirrors to each other in every way. I think that's why they are both attracted and argue with each other.

Just a few quick observations.

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 9:13 PM

AGENTROUKA


Oh, I have a whole huge theory built around this idea! :D

(SPOILERS to follow!)


To me, the list of qualities goes as follows:

Serenity = Mal (metal skin)

Zoe = life and survival (his body guard)

Wash = normality & dependance on others (the pilot)

Kaylee = hope and kindness (fixes things)

Inara = heart, emotions, sexuality (ungovernable)

Jayne = primitive instincts (held in check)

Book = external value system (religion - conflict & comfort)

Simon = internal value system (ideology-free conscience, heroism, nobility, selfless doctor)

River = Spirit (drive, force, direction - but broken)

(Jayne being the only aspect Mal consciously externalized, because Wash, Kaylee and Inara create so much softness that aggression and selfishness are now only a tool to be weilded, no longer an ingrained reaction.)


"Out of Gas" is the episode in which each character, in their projected role, fails Mal and then redeems themselves, except for Book and River, for obvious reasons.


In the movie, Mal loses that artifical normality (Wash), he loses an external guidance system (Book) and decides risk his interim solution (Serenity) to listen to the voice inside (River).
His life is bereft with new loss (Zoe), but he has opened himself back up to his noble side (Simon), has hope for the future (Kaylee = happy) and is on a path of reconciliation with his broken heart (Inara).
Jayne is satisfyed by eating in the last scene. Basic comfort.



Others may disagree, but "Out of Gas" was a revelation to me in that context. *g*

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 9:51 PM

KNIGHTREYEDER


Interesting analogy. Makes me feel a little superficial, I just enjoyed the differences and didn't analyze it from that angle. I don't debate your view, you seem pretty open minded.....

Out of Gas wasn't my personal favorite but it was still awesome.

Once turned to the darkside, there's no turning back.

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 9:58 PM

DARKFLY


I agree with all of the posts so far, but I'm pretty sure Joss Whedon once said somewhere that basically the whole crew is Mal just different parts of him as people have previously stated but I can't remember where I Joss say it.

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Monday, October 15, 2007 3:34 AM

SHINYSEVEN2


Well, just about any "disparate crew has to work together for a common goal" story owes a lot to the movie version of "The Wizard of Oz" (especially finding out that you had what you were looking for all along). But more specifically in the Jossverse I think the Firefly crew is a lot like the Scooby Gang transformed into the UberBuffy.

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Tuesday, October 16, 2007 6:08 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA


Quote:

Originally posted by Darkfly:
I agree with all of the posts so far, but I'm pretty sure Joss Whedon once said somewhere that basically the whole crew is Mal just different parts of him as people have previously stated but I can't remember where I Joss say it.

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Yes he did, in the very first episode Serenity. One of the best commentary tracks between him and Nathan. Nathan, as I recall, brings that up. When Kaylee's in the infirmary talking to Mal after Simon patched her up.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 2:05 AM

SUPERUNKNOWN


I think Joss said that every character represents something Mal has lost following the battle of Serenity Valley:

- Wash is his sense of humour
- Kaylee is his innocence
- Book is his faith
- Zoe is his trust
- Jayne is his selfishness
- Simon is his compassion

I'm just not sure what Inara and Rivrer represent. I suppose it could be argued that Inara is his heart or his faith in others, but I don't know what River is.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 4:28 AM

JOSEPHUS


Something no one has mentioned or alluded to is that it is very well possible that Mal is, to one degree or another, Joss' alter ego and therefore, all the various descriptions here of the other members of the crew are actually various aspects of Joss himself.

It is presumptuous to assume anything about someone we don't know, but the more I see, hear and read about Joss in interviews etc. the more it seems that he has, consciously or unconsciously, invested much of himself in Mal.

One of the most revealing of these is his commentary during the last Firefly episode "Objects In Space". The commentary is more about himself, his philosophy, how he arrived at it and how it is expressed in the episode itself. Very interesting. Check it out if you haven't already done so.



Josephus

Only when love and need are one
And the work is play for mortal stakes
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sake.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 4:37 AM

WYTCHCROFT


you know that Joss was gonna play BADGER right?

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 5:12 AM

MAL4PREZ


But I've also heard it said that Joss wouldn't like Mal much if he met him. I mean, sure there's elements of Joss in there, but I don't think that's the full story.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 7:07 AM

JOSEPHUS


More than likely, few of us would like our alter egos. This was the premise behind Robert Louis Stevenson's "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde". Edward Hyde literally represents the doctor's other self or alter ego. And in that particular case, Hyde didn't represent the "full story" or person that Jekyll was either.

As I noted, Joss may have unconsciously created Mal as an alter ego but given that he seems so self aware (evidenced by his commentary in "Objects In Space"), he could also have done so consciously. It doesn't necessarily mean he likes Mal, anymore than any of us like our darker sides.

Josephus

Only when love and need are one
And the work is play for mortal stakes
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sake.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 7:27 AM

AGENTROUKA


But then, wouldn't Buffy be his alter ego, too? Or Angel?

Or, why not, say, Jayne?

In a way, every character created is a part of the creator, but I wouldn't go so far as to say alter ego. That gives Mal a status more special than any other of Joss's main characters that isn't really.. evident.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 7:39 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Josephus:
As I noted, Joss may have unconsciously created Mal as an alter ego but given that he seems so self aware (evidenced by his commentary in "Objects In Space")

Do you mean Mal is self-aware or Joss? (Confused by the "he")

I haven't listened to that commentary in a long, long time, and it was only once. But what I vaguely recall was Joss talking a lot about existentialism, and the character who embodied that was Early, not Mal.

Anyhoo, I really don't see Mal as Joss or anti-Joss, no more so than Wash (which actually seems more likely) or River, or any of them. I'm sure they all have little similarities and differences to him, since they're all drawn from his life experience. But I see Mal as a product of the world Joss was creating - a post-Civil War period - and most of Mal's traits are related to that. The rebellious but charismatic leader, the believer who lost his faith, the wholesome small-time rancher who ended up with no choice but to turn to crime. I don't think these traits describe Joss. Uh... well, there is the snarky sense of humor, but everyone on the crew has that.

Of course, I don't know Joss much. At all. So I could be completely full of it.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 7:47 AM

RIVERFLAN


Quote:

Originally posted by superunknown:
I think Joss said that every character represents something Mal has lost following the battle of Serenity Valley:

- Wash is his sense of humour
- Kaylee is his innocence
- Book is his faith
- Zoe is his trust
- Jayne is his selfishness
- Simon is his compassion

I'm just not sure what Inara and Rivrer represent. I suppose it could be argued that Inara is his heart or his faith in others, but I don't know what River is.



River could be the representation of an amplified version of Mal- innocent untill broken, both belived in something and is extremely talented (at something different than Mal, but the resemblance is there), is now skilled at fighting.

And very smart, merryK. I would have never of thought of this theory; I don't think deep enough.


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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:03 AM

JOSEPHUS


"he" refers to the subject of the sentence, which is Joss. Also, the sentence refers to the person making the commentary in "Objects In Space", which again was Joss.

Furthermore, as I speculated in my original post, Joss could have very well incorporated other aspects of his personality in the other characters as well as Mal. In other words, in an earlier post by Darkfly, "Joss Whedon once said somewhere that basically the whole crew is Mal just different parts of him", so if I'm correct and Mal is Joss' alter ego then this quote about Mal would apply to Joss as well.

And I didn't intend to imply that the "Objects In Space" commentary was Joss admitting to Mal being his alter ego but as an example of his (Joss') self awareness. Nor was I implying that the biographical specifics about Mal that you listed were necessarily common to Joss. I'm referring to some of the personality traits that Joss has incorporated into Mal that both seem to have in common such as a lack of faith, snarky humor, etc. which you mentioned as well.

Being an artist, I'm acutely aware that all artists put some of themselves into their work whether they mean to or not. Joss is an artist.

But as you say, none of us know him except through his work so all of this is little more that fun speculation while waiting for Serenity 2.

Josephus

Only when love and need are one
And the work is play for mortal stakes
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sake.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:34 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Josephus:
"he" refers to the subject of the sentence, which is Joss. Also, the sentence refers to the person making the commentary in "Objects In Space", which again was Joss.

Pardon me! I meant no criticism, only clarity. Um... can we hug now or something?

The list I gave of Mal's stuff wasn't just biographical - that's his personality. He's been shaped by his life. But I also was referring to the way I believe a writer like Joss builds his fictional world, and I don't think he (meaning Joss ) is the type of writer to create a character to "be" himself. One could argue that he might do that without being aware of it, but, like you said, that seems unlikely for Joss.

Now, I am also an artist (na-na-na-na-naaaa! My easel is bigger than yours!! OK, I'm just kidding. I don't even have an easel.) When I write a story and want certain events to happen, I need to give my characters the traits that will make the plot believable. (My hero is Jane Austen. She ROCKS at this!) I think Joss did the same with Mal - he created a character who would not only be entertaining and compelling, but would fit the `verse and tell the story Joss meant to tell. I think that was more of a priority to Joss than creating a fictional Whedon clone.

Again, I don't know Joss, so this is nothing but speculation. But from what I've seen of Joss's creations, I think he'd be bored by making a main character who was an image of himself. I think Joss likes to get out of his "safe" box, and he'll explore challenging characters, characters who aren't him, whom he disagrees with and dislikes. (Did I do that right with the whom? You've got me all nervous now... LOL!)

And, as AgentRouka said, assuming Mal=Joss puts a heavy weight on the character. It makes him a Mary Sue. A he-Mary-Sue. I think Joss is better than that, given all the varied and interesting characters he's given us in the past.

Edit to add: Welcome to the site Josephus! We're really nice here. I only get so snarky as this on special occasions...

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:15 AM

TRISTAN


Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:



And Simon? Surprisingly, when you look at it point by point, Simon is pretty much Mal raised in a wealthy household. Both of them have strong characters, both of them feel very deeply, both lose their faith in a manner that leaves them bitter, both would (and do) give up their lives figuratively in service of a cause, both of them are extremely loyal to those they consider family, both of them have dry and snarky wit, and both of them are a pretty clueless when it comes to relationships. Yes, Mal is good in combat and is better at thinking on his feet, and Simon beats Mal when it comes to nurturing/sensitivity and anything intellectual...but I think Mal can't help but keep Simon around because he sees a lot of himself in Simon.




I like your thoughts.
I have to admit I had never looked at Simon that way...so thanks for the brain-jog!

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:16 AM

LAWMAN


Wow, a lot of thought went into these posts. I liked all the different angles. However, I really appreciated SuperUnknown's post. its harder to see all the tangents and angles from Serenity the movie. which is why i'm looking forward to the second one.

we're just folk

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:42 AM

JOSEPHUS


" Pardon me! I meant no criticism, only clarity. Um... can we hug now or something? "

I went back and reread my post...sorry for the tone, I didn't mean it to come off that way. I'm embarrassed. Like you I was only trying to clarify. I had a smile on my face when I wrote it but cold words on a page don't convey "non-verbal" communication.

Also, I can't disagree with anything you said but it still doesn't discount the possibility that Joss has imbued Mal with some of himself. Of course Joss is much more though.

Love the back and forth. It's fun. Thanks.

Just watched "Rodger Dodger" last night and Morena Baccarin had a bit part near the beginning. God, she's one of the most achingly beautiful women I've ever laid eyes on. And they spelled her name wrong in the end credits.

Later


Josephus

Only when love and need are one
And the work is play for mortal stakes
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sake.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:32 AM

MAL4PREZ


Yay! Hugs!

Quote:

Originally posted by Josephus:
Also, I can't disagree with anything you said but it still doesn't discount the possibility that Joss has imbued Mal with some of himself.

No doubt! Mal's definitely a feminist and anti-establishment, and we know where that comes from LOL!

Oh, and uh... sorry for hijacking your thread MerryK. All in all, I agree, but I can't say it better than it was said by NCbrowncoat, AR, and superunknown.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 2:26 PM

MERRYK


Hey, no problem with the hijacking...I like any discussion that relates to this.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the addition of the girls into my theory. I can see that connections could be made, but I don't think that, even in his subconscious, Mal thinks of them like that. I think Mal sees his girls as comrades and people to take care of, while I think he sees the men as crew and subordinates. He discusses occasionally, but is usually giving orders to the men, while he's more chatty and at ease with the women, even Zoe. I think he sees the women as his family, and the men as people he's chosen to fly with. Not quite the same thing. I also have a hard time making the connections between the women and Mal, though certainly certain scenes make parallels.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 4:41 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:
I think Mal sees his girls as comrades and people to take care of, while I think he sees the men as crew and subordinates.

Even as I shudder, I have to admit that you have a point. I shudder because the gender parity of Joss's shows are part of why I love them so, and I hate to see any hard line dividing male and female characters. And here's where I do see Joss in Mal Josephus - I've generally thought Mal as someone to judge a person based on the person, and not on the indoor/outdoor plumbing issue.

But now that you point it out, MerryK, I must admit that Mal's relationships with Jayne, Book, Simon, and Wash all tend toward adversarial, while Zoe is a comrade/friend, and Kaylee and River are like daughters/little sisters. Inara I think is actually more similar to the men on the crew in that she's usually a challenge and an argument to Mal.

But then, I think Mal's attitude towards the men aren't due to the fact that they're men, but that they're a mercenary, a preacher, a rich boy, and married to Zoe. And I do think all this would have changed in time, just like Angel got closer to his group in later seasons.

Quote:

I also have a hard time making the connections between the women and Mal, though certainly certain scenes make parallels.
I don't see this as a connection in Mal's mind, or in any of the character's, but a situation set up by the writer. These characters were each put into the crew for a purpose, and I think it makes all kinds of sense that each were chosen, at least in part, to highlight or contrast some characteristic of Mal's. I think the most obvious is Kaylee, she has such humor and innocence, and that obviously resonates with him.

As for River, I think she isn't related to Mal's past as much as his future. The main thing she does is drag him back into the fight with the evil elements of the Alliance, which he never would have done otherwise.

I agree, fun thread!

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:05 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
[Even as I shudder, I have to admit that you have a point. I shudder because the gender parity of Joss's shows are part of why I love them so, and I hate to see any hard line dividing male and female characters. And here's where I do see Joss in Mal Josephus - I've generally thought Mal as someone to judge a person based on the person, and not on the indoor/outdoor plumbing issue.

But now that you point it out, MerryK, I must admit that Mal's relationships with Jayne, Book, Simon, and Wash all tend toward adversarial, while Zoe is a comrade/friend, and Kaylee and River are like daughters/little sisters. Inara I think is actually more similar to the men on the crew in that she's usually a challenge and an argument to Mal.

But then, I think Mal's attitude towards the men aren't due to the fact that they're men, but that they're a mercenary, a preacher, a rich boy, and married to Zoe. And I do think all this would have changed in time, just like Angel got closer to his group in later seasons.




Are there any men on the show with whom Mal shares an unconflicted connection?

I actually always had the impression that Mal has issues with men, in general, and with the men on the crew in particular.

He has a generally positive attitude toward women and a generally negative one toward men, it seems. (Daddy!issues!) Of all the characters on the show, Mal is the one with the most clearly differing approaches to each gender, in fact. Even Jayne treats them more equally.

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:12 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
He has a generally positive attitude toward women and a generally negative one toward men, it seems. (Daddy!issues!) Of all the characters on the show, Mal is the one with the most clearly differing approaches to each gender, in fact. Even Jayne treats them more equally.

Egad - you're totally right! The funny thing is, I've even written his background with the missing dad, but never thought it through. I guess I've focused on his attitude toward women more than men. (I wonder why? LOL!)

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:20 AM

MERRYK


It's funny, but I don't see Mal as feminist at all, Mal4Prez. Well, in his mind he thinks he is, maybe, but I agree that he's the only male who doesn't treat the genders totally equally. Simon's chivalrous, sure, but he shows that level of politeness to pretty much everyone, and never tries to "protect" Kaylee. Jayne shows a lot of respect to women, more than he shows to most men, and Wash is obviously very feminist in his relations with women. But Mal—I suppose Zoe is the closest he gets to being gender-blind.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:42 AM

MAL4PREZ


Mal was raised by a strong mother, and he sees strength in women. The inequality in how he treats the genders I can see as a distrust of men more than any anti-feminist bend. Which, using today's standards, I call feminism. ie - the assumption that women are just as strong (personality wise) and capable as men.

There's two things mainly I can back that up with: Mal's treatment of Saffron, and his reaction to Kaylee in their first meeting. The Saffron thing is obvious, that he tried to empower her. With Kaylee, he was instantly ready to listen to the technical expertise of the pretty young thing who'd just been sexing up his mechanic. I think that speaks volumes of Mal's mentality toward women.

He's definitely not chivalrous toward Inara, but I don't see that based in any anti-woman attitude as much as using the easiest thing he could find to keep her at a distance. It got started in the OOG flashback when he found himself attracted to a woman who'd supported unification. I think he'd grab at anything to shut his feelings down and push her away. I don't think he did it consciously; it was an automated defense that became habit. But no matter how he talks, I think he believes Inara very capable, and has a begrudging respect for her.


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Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:50 AM

MERRYK


I agree mostly. Mal shows respect for women, but he still treats them as in need of protection. Inara in Shindig, Saffron in Our Mrs. Reynolds, River in Serenity, even the whores in Heart of Gold. He never treats men like this.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:17 AM

MAL4PREZ


Hmm. Absolutely true! But then, with the exception of Inara who he's all confused over, (you spin me round, etc) the women he gets all protective over are those who actually do need it, or appear to. Saffron's act, River, Kaylee - they do need to be defended. Not because they're women but because they're vulnerable. Zoe doesn't need protecting, so he leaves her be.

The men in the crew don't need protecting either. Well - Simon does, and Mal actually does protect him (Safe). He's not nice about it, but I think first impressions have set up an animosity there. Not because Simon's a boy, but because he's a fancy rich kid who got Kaylee shot.

Yeah, I think Mal would be just as ready to protect men who seemed defenseless as he is with women. I'm thinking it's more that Joss has set up the female characters to be in need of protection while the men aren't. I do think that would have changed in time...

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:30 AM

MERRYK


I don't see Inara or Kaylee in need of protection, and I don't think anyone else on Firefly does...just Mal. Unless I'm missing something. You're right, Zoe doesn't get the protection treatment, except that Mal told her not to marry Wash. As if he had any say in her life! I'm glad she didn't pay attention. If you look at it, the only vulnerable woman in Firefly is River, and she eventually starts to grow into her own, so that by the movie she is ready to do the protecting.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:37 AM

AGENTROUKA


I agree with Mal4prez on this on pretty much every account.



I think, however, that deep down Mal has also an idealised view of women. His mother was an excellent role-model and he loves his strong women and all, but all his comfortable relationships still take place within that safely de-sexualized frame of Captain-Subordinate. (Perhaps remiscent of the Mother-Son status difference.) He doesn't have that full-equal reference.


Inara has Mal going all weird. When they are no fighting, he has that urge to be gallant, a very traditional courting type attitude. Hitting Atherton, warning her about Niska's skyplex, not wanting her involved in the Lassiter sale, jumping at the chance to defend her friend Nandi for free.

It's not so much his issues with sex (see Nandi and Saffron) but his emotional response to women.

Rationally, he has the neutral goodwill and acceptance of their equal strength, but emotionally he's a bit more old-fashioned. It reflects toward Kaylee and River, too, but those two can be legitimately "coddled" because they are young and comparatively vulnerable.

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:39 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:
I don't see Kaylee in need of protection, and I don't think anyone else on Firefly does...Jaynestown



if we say that being vulnerable doesn't mean being WEAK

then i would say that kaylee does need more protection than the rest - almost all of whom have combat training (even simon knows where to stick a knee and he's the next most vulnerable i think)...

Watching war stories and OIS and the battle at the end of BDM shows this. And the commentary to war stories re-enforces that (again, albeit in an overly paternal style - the caring though is real).

Xander in Buffy was also vulnerable - did that make him weak? and willow till she got a little black mojo working for her...

i often disgree about this with close friends tho' - so maybe it's an imponderable...


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Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:53 AM

MERRYK


Let me rephrase myself...in most circumstances, Kaylee can take care of herself. So can Simon. They aren't needy, though. In combat situations, yes, Kaylee would need to be protected, but so would Simon. This doesn't mean that these two need to be treated as weak and "in need of protection". They're generally capable people who have weak points that occasionally show up.

Emotionally vulnerable fits Kaylee more closely, but she doesn't need to be protected from every harsh word. In fact, even when she is hurt, she rarely needs anyone's help to keep her from bursting into tears. She's not weak...no one on Firefly is.

There's rarely any need for Mal to be protective of Kaylee, and I haven't seen any time where Inara or Zoe needed his help, but he gives it anyway which makes Mal the least feminist of the Firefly men, which is all I was saying.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:04 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:
There's rarely any need for Mal to be protective of Kaylee, and I haven't seen any time where Inara or Zoe needed his help, but he gives it anyway which makes Mal the least feminist of the Firefly men, which is all I was saying.




I disagree with the phrase "least feminist". Extending help only means that Mal wants to give it, not necessarily that he thinks they need it.

That's not contrary to feminism, really.

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:23 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I agree with Mal4prez on this on pretty much every account.

Woo-hoo!

Quote:

I think, however, that deep down Mal has also an idealised view of women.
Agreed. And I do see your point, MerryK, that Kaylee is not weak. I didn't mean that! As Wytchcroft says - vulnerable doesn't mean weak. But her strengths are not the ones that let her walk into a den of thieves and fight her way out. She is indeed in need of protection in the world that they live in.

Also, I will hazard to say that Mal's attidue follows from identifying with her. She's like his younger self (tying into the thread title, yay!) and he hopes that she won't go the way he has, get beat down and broken and lose all that wonderful sunniness and cheer. He may want to protect her for reasons that have nothing to do with chivalry toward women.

Quote:

Rationally, he has the neutral goodwill and acceptance of their equal strength, but emotionally he's a bit more old-fashioned.
Couldn't agree more!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:48 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:
Kaylee can take care of herself. she doesn't need to be protected from every harsh word. In fact, even when she is hurt, she rarely needs anyone's help to keep her from bursting into tears. She's not weak...no one on Firefly is.




i agree:) in fact there are some lovely moments where her natural endurance/resilience (or no nonsense personality) comes out - over the course of the show. she doesn't seem to mind being the 'girl' in front of the men - but only as long as it is clearly in playful fun - never in a dangerous situation or when she is involved in a real task - after all we are shown a line... because Jayne crosses it and Mal calls him on it immediately.

apologies for wandering off topic...

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:42 AM

MERRYK


Once again, I think we probably agree in the essentials. I just think gender has a little more to do with who Mal protects than you seem to think. I'm not actually a very strong feminist myself, and find old-fashioned chivalry rather attractive in most circumstances, but in a purely analytical sense I see Mal as more inclined to protect women, regardless.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 1:20 PM

PLATONIST


I thought you might find this interesting. I've referred to it a few times. Ironically, it was written before the BDM, but it can be applied to what we see in the movie. And what Joss says (on the CE) about what Mal gains for his character arc in the movie.

http://www.whedon.info/article.php3?id_article=17254

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 1:29 PM

WYTCHCROFT


that is a great fracking link!:)

i don't agree with it 100% but definitely well thought out and stimulating to read...

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 2:08 PM

PLATONIST


100% convinced? me never, LOL.

River as "the personification of Mal's tortured soul" has a certain ring to it, kinda like philosophical poetry...Jungian more than Existentialism (OIS), but Joss isn't there yet on his Pop Philosophy Journey.

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 2:33 PM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by Platonist:
Joss isn't there yet on is Pop Philosophy Journey.



ha! comes in handy though...

Buffy Summers as the embodiment of the dying / reviving god myth - discuss...

Malcolm Reynolds - Nausea in space - discuss...

Gestalt process in the works of whedon - from The Scoobies to the Browncoats - discuss (with reference to The Yoko Factor and Those Left Behind)...



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