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Originally posted by Raycheetah:
I coulda sworn Joss had vowed never to go back to those F*X asshats?

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Originally posted by BrownBug:

it sounds dreadful, simply dreadful

and im a little tired of Joss "empowering" women, its becoming a one trick pony.

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Originally posted by EmmaZule:

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Originally posted by Raycheetah:
I coulda sworn Joss had vowed never to go back to those F*X asshats?

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You mean the asshats who USED to work at Fox?

Read the Ausiello Report's note on the show.

Joss openly said that it's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PEOPLE from the ones that canned Firefly that are working there now - the network is handled by different people than it was five years ago. The fact that the previous staff made him do a second pilot while giving him only a weekend to write it, while this staff is giving him seven episodes without seeing a script - just seeing the pitch and the fact that Joss is on it - speaks VOLUMES about the changes. I would in fact not be surprised at all if the employees responsible for canning Firefly - which turned out to be a cult cash cow and got huge ratings for ANOTHER network in a different lineup - got quietly, invisibly sacked for incompetence at losing a potential Buffy-esque goldmine and making a valuable, fanbase-beloved creator leave the network entirely.

You all also seem to think that Fox won't relentlessly advertise things it actually WANTS to succeed - and thus far, it sounds like the kind of production deal that a bunch of total Whedon fanboys would make. Sometimes shows are cancelled or renewed based on ratings - and sometimes they aren't. This show already clearly has better support than Firefly did.

My only concern is if it starts doing real well, so well that they stupidly try to move it around and then lose their audience, which is sort of what happened with Tru Calling, as far as I can tell.

But keep in mind one very, very important thing that Tim Minear (and Tim Kring of Heroes, for that matter) learned quite quickly:

If you know exactly how many episodes you WILL have, you can work around it. You can tell a complete arc, but with an open ending that allows continuation, having your cake and sure, being hungry afterwards but you're not starving are you? People lament what happened to Wonderfalls, but let's not forget that part of the show's brilliance cames exactly from Minear knowing he only had so many episodes guaranteed, and WORKING with that. As a writer myself, I guarantee I would in his shoes be jumping for JOY at getting more than one episode right off the bat, and knowing exactly how many I was getting to start with. So...

EVERYONE PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT FOX AS IF THE NETWORK NEVER CHANGES ITS EMPLOYMENT ROSTER, AND AS IF KNOWING THE EXACT NUMBER OF EPISODES HE GETS TO START WITH IS SOME SORT OF BAD THING. THANK YOU.

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Did his commitment for seven episodes, half the number filmed of Firefly, include a commitment to air them in the right ruttin' order? No time slot shell-game? No pre-emptions? Well, again, seven eps is a smaller target to hit with the usual F*X shenanigans... Mebbe.

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That's a valid complaint... but how do you know they WILL do that? They don't always. I'm not saying they never do - they're infamous for it, for a reason - but they don't ALWAYS do it. Look at The Simpsons for instance. That thing's always been treated right. Or the X-Files? It's only time-slot switch turned out to be a good thing!

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Mebbe that's why he only got seven. Mebbe shoulda only got 2.

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I love ya man, but you're an idiot, because you're completely ignoring the fact that they are actually giving him a full mini-season WITHOUT SEEING AN ACTUAL SCRIPT YET.

That is WAY more than they ever did for Firefly. It is, as noted by someone else and intensely ignored anyway by everyone in the gorram thread, COMPLETELY UNPRECEDENTED IN ALL OF TV HISTORY! This is not only more than they did for Firefly, it's more than anyone's EVER done in TV for any creator.

And from Joss' standpoint, even if the series tanks, he'll have gotten a full mini-season to tell a complete arc. Instead of getting really, really excited about this cool new idea and getting it killed when they don't like his pilot (and openings of that nature are very hard to pull off well, to boot).

Keep in mind, he's learned from the past. You all think he's niave to go back. You all are wrong. He knows enough not to be surprised if it does get cancelled, but he also knows he's getting to tell a full arc if he wishes.

I strongly suspect those seven episodes will be an awful lot like the 13 episodes of Wonderfalls - self-contained as a whole, but wonderfully open-ended.

I do hope they air them in order though. THAT is a valid concern.

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More importantly, since Joss has returned to TV(!), did this include a commit from F*X to resurrect the show we REALLY want to see? The one F*X holds the rights to, and, since they're makin' nice with Joss, again, really oughtta be doin' everything in their power to restore?

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How do you know they aren't?

We know they were beta-testing an MMO based on it, and if they're as smart as Universal they'll have an ear to the ground in fandom and be able to see that a return to TV is what we want most for the series.

I would not be surprised either if they struck a deal with SciFi Channel, similar to their previous deals with WB and UPN with Buffy, where they own the DVD and other rights but the channel gets airing privileges. We know it does well on SciFi Channel even in repeats, after all! And cable has much lower expectations for ratings. I would personally LOVE to see that happen, as SFC tends to air their shows in order from what I could tell, and I still get the channel.

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Sure, the new show will garner fans; I am more than a little annoyed that it is taken for granted that the pre-existing Buffy fanbase (yeah, I know, Eliza Dushku) is going to back this. What about the Browncoats? I guess we don't count? Or, did they kinda mebbe figger that we wouldn't be standin' at the back door, cunnin' hats in our hands, wonderin' about OUR show, OUR BDHs?

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Yes, because this thread proves the Browncoats are expecting Fox to do anything but ruin their lives, and that the Flans of the world are really, really eager to see this show and not at all reluctant to even get involved with it.

You want to know why everyone's mentioning Buffy instead of Firefly?

BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE KNOW BUFFY EVEN EXISTS.

Is it his best series? Well, no. Firefly was LOADS better, I love it way more.

But Buffy was way, way more popular.

And let's not forget the folks like myself, who tried Firefly in the first place in part because it was "from the guy that made Buffy! I like Buffy... it had good dialogue and a great sense of humor about itself".

The Buffy fans are a bigger base. Deal with it already, jeez.

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In fact, I am really annoyed that a ready-made fanbase is bein' taken for granted, at all. F*X is makin' this, only because it's Joss, and, because they know that all of his fans are gonna just fall all over themselves *SQUEEE!* about this. 'Scuse me, aren't we the same fans F*X has repeatedly robbed of not only Joss' shows, but, many, many others?

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Shows?

Try "show". They have only cancelled one of Joss' shows. They weren't responsible for Buffy's cancellation (that would be Sarah Michelle Gellar not wanting to do more than seven seasons) or Angel's (that would be the WB).

And last I checked, Joss hasn't done more than those before now.

Once again, you're blowing things out of proportion.

And you know what?

I'm gonna watch it now. I probably would have watched it anyway but now I will watch EVERY GORRAM EPISODE they air and buy it when it comes out on DVD to boot. Why?

Because I need to counteract picklepusses like you that will apparently WANT this show to die, just because they're too busy whining about Firefly's tragic demise to even consider giving another Joss Fox show a chance.

To reiterate what another said earlier: it seems like someone would rather Joss be unemployed!

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A smell a whole lotta "Let's get ourselves an interim fan draw to soften the blow of the impending writers' strike" comin' offa this plan.

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Well yes. But at the same time, they announced Heroes a year in advance, and that both took off marvelously, and had nothing to do with a writers' strike.

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Sorry, I cannot get excited about this, another series which will either:

A. Tank and drown after seven eps, to become another cult fave which makes F*X money hand over fist on DVD sales, or,

B. Do so very well that F*X actually supports it (for a while), though they scarcely have the right to share in any of Joss' success, and, a busy Joss' priorities have to shift away from older, already fading projects.

Like Firefly.

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You know, I'm going to commit what's apparently a cardinal sin here and say the following:

Firefly doesn't need it. Firefly HAD a conclusion. It's a movie, called "Serenity". And if he WANTED to give up on it - which I doubt he does - I would not argue. It will have been tragically short, but have had a fine finish and a wonderful fanbase (well, normally they are...).

Also, again as a writer - why do you assume that starting a new show means another old show gets completely ignored? For folks like Joss that are bubbling over with ideas ALWAYS, this isn't really as big an issue as you're making it out to be. And you also have no basis on which to complain, because Firefly itself was done at the same time as one season of Buffy AND Angel!

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Bitter? You bet. Disillusioned with F*X? Check. Happy for Joss? Well... Let's see how this pans out, before I start smilin' about this new show. Not a huge Buffyverse fan, myself (that'd be the missus), the premise doesn't guarantee that I'll be interested in this, either. And, interest in a show, not who makes it, is why I watch TV.

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More than bitter. You're outright acidic! You could cook raw fish at room temperature in the kind of talk you just gave. All because WAAAAAh my favorite got canceled five years ago, by a completely different staff than is running that network now. It's actually kind of ridiculous, you know, how much you're stretching or ignoring the facts here just to spit vitriol at people who weren't even the same ones that DID cancel Firefly.

Am I bitter that it got canceled too? Well, yes. But that doesn't mean I'm going to lop off these new folks' heads so long as Joss is happy and gets a guaranteed number of episodes of his new show. You realize he DOES make a living from doing that, right? And that he has a child to support? Just checking.

~Emma

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Wow.

Y'know, after I last posted, I backed offa this thread, 'cause I realized some folks might see me as a downer... Something I've seen in others on another board (which shall remain nameless), and, which I never wish to become. I don't want to dampen the enthusiam others might have, even if I don't necessarily share that enthusiasm.

Turned out to be a gorram lightnin' rod, my post.

I think I had every right to state my opinions, and, to express my perhaps "acidly" cynical attitude toward F*X. I apologize for obviously getting under your skin, Emma. My opinions were not personal attacks on you, or, on anyone else. Perhaps I did belabor the long-standing and acrimonious stance adopted by the fans of MANY shows (not merely Joss' FF) which, for one reason or another, did not succeed on F*X.

Anyone here remember a show called Babylon 5? That was my first active fandom, back in the early '90s (ST didn't really count). I expect the "asshats" who screwed over Firefly weren't even interns at that company yet. However, the same mishandling and ultimate cancellation of a great genre show (picked up by TNT, after F*X ditched it), is the origin of my deeply-ingrained distrust of that network.

I think that, had Dollhouse been picked up by any other network, the level of unvarnished enthusiasm would be much higher. Please, Emma, don't mistake the distrust many of us have for F*X as not wanting Joss, or, his show, to succeed, nor, as considering Joss to be an "idiot," which is a terrible pejorative to use, especially toward someone whom you don't know.

I respect Joss for what he has done, for Firefly and Serenity, on a personal level; for the Buffyverse, on behalf of those who love it (such as my wife) as much as I love FF/S; and for what he has done as a creative force, in many fields, not to mention his humanitarian efforts.

At the same time, Dollhouse doesn't sound like my kinda thing. I'll give it a chance, but, I think it is fair to say that, as with Buffy, I may see it, and, be able to take it or leave it. More troubling with it being on F*X, is the fact that, if it turns out to be something we end up loving as passionately as whichever of his other productions we do, it is still in the hands of a studio which has mishandled Joss' and other series.

I apologize for my ignorance about the circumstances of the ends of Buffy and Angel. Thank you for correcting my misperceptions.

And, it has been observed in the flandom that "From the Creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer" was part of what turned a lot of now-Browncoats away from seeing Serenity in the theaters, in the first place. Whether they didn't like Buffy, or, thought it was okay, it was not an association that motivated them to see Serenity. While there is a lot of overlap between the fandoms, they are not the same. Some folks like apples, some, oranges. Some like a nice, mixed fruit salad.

Me, I cut my fruit open with a knife, before I decide.

And, I acknowledge your point, that Joss has won a commitment to 7 eps, and, that he can, therefore, plan his arc to have an open-ended completion. In effect, he has a mini-series. It still runs counter to my instincts to credit the 21st Century monolith with the good sense to handle this one right. Instincts aside, reason might dictate that the execs in charge this time would know better than to mess with the opportunity they've handed Joss.

Time will tell.

At any rate, I am very disappointed that this thread has turned out to be so full of unnecessary animosity and naked hostility between /fans/; we should, all of us, be above such rancor.

As for my being a "picklepuss," well, I affirm that those who know me are far better entitled to call me names than you are, Emma. As well, please, don't presume to attribute motives me. Of COURSE I want this show to succeed; it is a common-sense observation that Joss' success contributes toward the possibility of more of the 'Verse, in some form.

On the other hand, if you will grant me the favor of not judging me solely by my contributions to this, one thread, you might come to know me better, if we have occasion to cross paths, again, on some other thread or forum.

Make it a shiny day!


-Raycheetah =^[.]^=
The enjoyment of any good thing is only enhanced by sharing it with others.



http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=30176

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Originally posted by embers:
jeez I get the feeling that some of you would rather see Joss unemployed forever rather than gamble on Fox...
and let's face it: Fox are the only ones signing our people, and gambling their money.

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More importantly, since Joss has returned to TV(!), did this include a commit from F*X to resurrect the show we REALLY want to see?

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Sure, the new show will garner fans; I am more than a little annoyed that it is taken for granted that the pre-existing Buffy fanbase (yeah, I know, Eliza Dushku) is going to back this. What about the Browncoats? I guess we don't count? Or, did they kinda mebbe figger that we wouldn't be standin' at the back door, cunnin' hats in our hands, wonderin' about OUR show, OUR BDHs?

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And let's not forget the folks like myself, who tried Firefly in the first place in part because it was "from the guy that made Buffy! I like Buffy... it had good dialogue and a great sense of humor about itself".

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Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:

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More importantly, since Joss has returned to TV(!), did this include a commit from F*X to resurrect the show we REALLY want to see?

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More importantly, the show I REALLY want to see is anything Joss creates.

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Sure, the new show will garner fans; I am more than a little annoyed that it is taken for granted that the pre-existing Buffy fanbase (yeah, I know, Eliza Dushku) is going to back this. What about the Browncoats? I guess we don't count? Or, did they kinda mebbe figger that we wouldn't be standin' at the back door, cunnin' hats in our hands, wonderin' about OUR show, OUR BDHs?

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'annoyed that it's taken for granted that pre-existing Buffy fanbase is going to back this?' Of course we are!!! It's pretty obvious how little you actually know about us 'pre-existing Buffy fans'...we support our people just as much as Browncoats do. In fact, we've been doing it longer than you, so PLEASE get over yourself.

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And let's not forget the folks like myself, who tried Firefly in the first place in part because it was "from the guy that made Buffy! I like Buffy... it had good dialogue and a great sense of humor about itself".

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My sentiments exactly.

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"We have the best fans in the business [in the] Buffy and Whedon universe. It's gonna be pandemonium when this [news] hits." --Eliza Dushku on Dollhouse

"Joss is like a present, he's like a gift as far as I'm concerned."--Ron Glass

for Joss

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it sounds dreadful, simply dreadful

and im a little tired of Joss "empowering" women, its becoming a one trick pony. Honestly his best female character was Zoe, no special powers, no abilities just a strong soulful woman who had seen a lot in life. I have no interest in this charmed/river/total recall teenfest. And on Fox ? Are words becoming meaningless.

Im gonna take my epsodes of firefly and treasure them but for me this dance is over.[

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it sounds dreadful, simply dreadful

and im a little tired of Joss "empowering" women, its becoming a one trick pony. Honestly his best female character was Zoe, no special powers, no abilities just a strong soulful woman who had seen a lot in life. I have no interest in this charmed/river/total recall teenfest. And on Fox ? Are words becoming meaningless.

Im gonna take my epsodes of firefly and treasure them but for me this dance is over.[

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Originally posted by Raycheetah:
I have learned that the basis of my statements was flawed, and, I acknowledge that the Buffy fandom doesn't necessarily share the same cause for distrust (as a discrete fan group) of F*X as the FF flans. I was, perhaps, guilty, in my vent against F*X, of irrationally attributing to that network an exploitative attitude toward the Buffy fans whom I (again, erroneously) believed had been wronged, as the FF flans were.

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Originally posted by zzetta13:
I happen to agree with a lot of what RayeCheetah has posted. He has his opinion and I respect it and others should too. If someone has a passionate disagreement then post it but I think we can lay off the name calling. If someone wants to enlighten me with things they know or their own opinion I’m ready to listen and share space.

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Originally posted by embers:
Z: I really agree, and I feel just as passionate about Firefly (and all of Joss' work).

I came to Firefly when it was first aired because I already loved BtVS and I knew that Joss would bring the same brilliant writing to the new project...
It was hard to watch Firefly, it was out of order, and it's hard to 'get' things out of sequence. And it was particularly hard because most of the aired episodes were aired at midnight! The sports came first, and then (for some weird reason) reruns of Friends came next, and finally my local Fox affiliate would run Firefly...after I had called them several times to be sure I would get my VCR set in time.

Anyway my experience was that Firefly was even more brilliant than Buffy (and I still love Buffy a lot), so therefore I have confidence that Dollhouse will be something really amazing.

I just don't see Joss peaking any time soon.

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I think I had every right to state my opinions, and, to express my perhaps "acidly" cynical attitude toward F*X. I apologize for obviously getting under your skin, Emma. My opinions were not personal attacks on you, or, on anyone else. Perhaps I did belabor the long-standing and acrimonious stance adopted by the fans of MANY shows (not merely Joss' FF) which, for one reason or another, did not succeed on F*X.

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Anyone here remember a show called Babylon 5? That was my first active fandom, back in the early '90s (ST didn't really count). I expect the "asshats" who screwed over Firefly weren't even interns at that company yet. However, the same mishandling and ultimate cancellation of a great genre show (picked up by TNT, after F*X ditched it), is the origin of my deeply-ingrained distrust of that network.

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I think that, had Dollhouse been picked up by any other network, the level of unvarnished enthusiasm would be much higher.

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Please, Emma, don't mistake the distrust many of us have for F*X as not wanting Joss, or, his show, to succeed, nor, as considering Joss to be an "idiot," which is a terrible pejorative to use, especially toward someone whom you don't know.

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I respect Joss for what he has done, for Firefly and Serenity, on a personal level; for the Buffyverse, on behalf of those who love it (such as my wife) as much as I love FF/S; and for what he has done as a creative force, in many fields, not to mention his humanitarian efforts.

At the same time, Dollhouse doesn't sound like my kinda thing. I'll give it a chance, but, I think it is fair to say that, as with Buffy, I may see it, and, be able to take it or leave it. More troubling with it being on F*X, is the fact that, if it turns out to be something we end up loving as passionately as whichever of his other productions we do, it is still in the hands of a studio which has mishandled Joss' and other series.

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I apologize for my ignorance about the circumstances of the ends of Buffy and Angel. Thank you for correcting my misperceptions.

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And, it has been observed in the flandom that "From the Creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer" was part of what turned a lot of now-Browncoats away from seeing Serenity in the theaters, in the first place. Whether they didn't like Buffy, or, thought it was okay, it was not an association that motivated them to see Serenity. While there is a lot of overlap between the fandoms, they are not the same. Some folks like apples, some, oranges. Some like a nice, mixed fruit salad.

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Me, I cut my fruit open with a knife, before I decide.

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And, I acknowledge your point, that Joss has won a commitment to 7 eps, and, that he can, therefore, plan his arc to have an open-ended completion. In effect, he has a mini-series. It still runs counter to my instincts to credit the 21st Century monolith with the good sense to handle this one right. Instincts aside, reason might dictate that the execs in charge this time would know better than to mess with the opportunity they've handed Joss.

Time will tell.

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At any rate, I am very disappointed that this thread has turned out to be so full of unnecessary animosity and naked hostility between /fans/; we should, all of us, be above such rancor.

As for my being a "picklepuss," well, I affirm that those who know me are far better entitled to call me names than you are, Emma.

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As well, please, don't presume to attribute motives me. Of COURSE I want this show to succeed; it is a common-sense observation that Joss' success contributes toward the possibility of more of the 'Verse, in some form.

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On the other hand, if you will grant me the favor of not judging me solely by my contributions to this, one thread, you might come to know me better, if we have occasion to cross paths, again, on some other thread or forum.

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Make it a shiny day!

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