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Originally posted by asarian:
Likewise with Inara: she's knows she's sleeping with men for money, but chooses to call what she's doing something else; like 'therapy,' for instance. As a therapist would say: Can't imagine how many times men in my position hear that excuse. :) I agree that Inara is not lying. But she's nonetheless living a lie. That's what denial is.

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She fights against the denigrating word because she believes that its wrong.

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Actually, that's not true. In Heart of Gold Inara uses the word "whore" on women, too. Mal is even shocked that she does it:

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There this joke ascribed to Churchill, where he asks a lady whether she would sleep with men for, say, $100. She's highly offended. Then he asks her whether she'd do it for a million, and she goes: "Hmmm.." She then asks him whether he thinks she's a prostitute. To which he answers: "Madam, we've already established what you are; we're just determining your price." Point being exactly the one you made: highly skilled or merely talented, they're both singers. :)

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And you presuppose a presupposition where none exists. :) A Companion is a kind of mix between a geisha and a courtisan: all the refinement and education of a geisha, but sleeping with the clients (courtisans).

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You seem to start from the position that prostitution is in itself unrespectable, saying that social acceptance and wealth must be tied to a facade. Is that just my impression?

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It is my belief that prostitution is a form of exploitation of women, no matter how nicely it's dressed up, yes. And that everyone involved in the trade, by consequence, is, one way or the other, in denial about that.

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I wouldn't call prostitution 'unrespectable', though, as that entails a judgement towards the women-one I do not share.

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That's like asking whether the medieval courtisans were a truly accepted and respected profession. Yes, there were.

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And yes, I'm sure that on Core worlds prostitution has become an acceptable way of making a living. Without hidden disdain, though? That's harder, and ties in with the hypocrisy. "Hypokrisis." play-acting. In the Greek. So, do I think they're all overtly play-acting that prostitution is okay? No. I think they've rationalized it well and long enough to believe it's okay, themselves. That's where their denial comes in.

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Ultimately, I'm of the firm belief that women selling their bodies for money is inherently degrading to women. And I certainly wouldn't call that stance "anti-feminist," as if 'the right to be a prostitute' is some sort of feminist achievement to be proud of. In fact, I nourish the hope that feminism will one day bring women to a place of true respect and acceptance, where sexploitation of the women -- however cleverly hidden -- is for ever a thing of the past. What can I say? I'm a traditionalist.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by pachelbel:


I believe he said "change is the essential process of all existence."

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I stand corrected; thanks Pach!

Memory didn't serve Chrisisall

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I can't see what she does as denial because I don't think Inara, in all honesty, has issues with the sex aspect of her work.

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Your definition of what she does is a very narrow one, focusing only on the fact that sex takes place and not at all on anything else.

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See, the thing for me is that there is more to Companioning than just sex.

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I know she does, but I still hold with my opinion. I think she was trying to keep things neutral because their bickering was not the focus at hand. Using Mal's term to describe what Nandi does was the quickest way to get across that a) they are not Companions and don't have Guild protection and b) their expected living conditions. It was a linguistic sacrifice for the sake of quick communication and minimum confrontation.

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You see, it's the "but" in there that doesn't work for me. To me it's an "and". No judgment necessary to divide the sexual aspect from the refinement.

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Where is the exploitation if both parties are of consenting age, willing and in full agreement about what takes place?

I am all against exploitation and into that I count the type of prostitution that results from poverty and a lack of substantial alternative. But there are educated, adult women with options choosing to be prostitutes and fine with it. Look at the Netherlands or Germany. Why is that exploitation?

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Is it not a judgment to imply that their adult choices must be built upon denial? That they aren't making rational choices even if they say and feel they do? Aren't you judging them by calling them victims, whether they agree or not?

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Not universally. Prostitution was still generally frowned upon in the widest parts of society. That's not what I would call truly accepted and respected.

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Do you call it denial because you consider your opinion a universal truth that all people must necessarily share, deep inside?

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What speaks against the idea that they truly believe that prostitution is okay?

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Prostitutes don't sell their bodies. That'd be slavery. They sell a service. Just like construction workers sell a service or cashiers sell a service or bodyguards sell a service.

(...)

I don't see what's so obviously degrading and as such fail to understand what Inara would have to be in denial about when she rejects the judgment of being called something she doesn't identify with.

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Originally posted by asarian:
One has lepers.

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Originally posted by asarian:

Inara's denial is not about having sex. Like I said: "she's knows she's sleeping with men for money, but chooses to call what she's doing something else." It's the 'calling it something else' part where the denial kicks in.

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INARA
These people like me, and I like
them. I like Atherton too, by the
way.

MAL
Well, sure, what's not to like? I'm
liable to sleep with him myself.

INARA
And he likes me, whether you see it
or not.

Do you honestly believe Inara honestly believes that? I honestly don't believe that. In fact, I say she can hardly even say it with a straight face. "These people like me," riiiight. Atherton himself, crude as he is, cuts right through the bull, painfully, but accurately defining Inara's undefinable allure:

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Your definition of what she does is a very narrow one, focusing only on the fact that sex takes place and not at all on anything else.

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I focus on the sex part, here, to demonstrate that the sex is not just one aspect of being a Companion, next to the others, but is, in fact, the core activity (pardon the pun) of a Companion. Take away the sponge baths, and you'll still have a Companion. Take away the tea ceremonies, and you'll still have a Companion. But take away the sex, and suddenly it's no longer a Companion, but something completely different. Like a geisha.

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See, the thing for me is that there is more to Companioning than just sex.

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Never said it weren't. But, in earnest, let's ask ourselves this: would folks still hire Inara for her undefinable allure alone, without having her in their bed? That's the point I've been making: that, yes, there's more to Companioning than just sex; but let's not kid ourselves, either: it's ultimately, really, the sex that's the product, to put it irreverently.

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You see, it's the "but" in there that doesn't work for me. To me it's an "and". No judgment necessary to divide the sexual aspect from the refinement.

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But the "but" is factual. It's a common misunderstanding that a geisha had sex with her man. As a rule, she didn't. Courtisans, however, as a rule, did.

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Please, let's not romanticize prostitution in our day. It's not something women nowadays can choose, as the latest cool new job women's lib has opened up for them. Spend one day here, in Amsterdam, and you'll see differently.

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As for 'calling them victims, whether they agree or not', I understand this is a potentially triggery subject, because it ties in, so closely, with what can easily be construed as me not respecting, or taking seriously, the free will choices women make. I'm already seeing some of that crop up in this thread.

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Often, if you look closer, they've had some sort of abusive past. And that, when they've come of age, may well think that a life of prostitution is a thing they freely 'choose'. I wouldn't call that a free choice, though.

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Saffron is a very good example. Not the duplicitous, real Saffron, of course, but the innocent girl she pretends to be. How many girls do you think are for real like that? Many, I reckon. And Mal does the honorable thing: he takes no advantage, even though she offers--with a passion.

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Do you call it denial because you consider your opinion a universal truth that all people must necessarily share, deep inside?

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Personal foul. Detracting one point again. -1.

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Prostitutes don't sell their bodies. That'd be slavery. They sell a service. Just like construction workers sell a service or cashiers sell a service or bodyguards sell a service.

(...)

I don't see what's so obviously degrading and as such fail to understand what Inara would have to be in denial about when she rejects the judgment of being called something she doesn't identify with.

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Why degrading? Waxing existential for a moment, I believe it has to do with self-love--or lack thereof, rather. Now, all too often peeps take a concept like "the integrity of the body" to mean they're free to find all unseemly manner of use for it (like drug abuse); or free to share it haphazardly. Now, that freedom always exists, of course: that's what free will is. :)

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But here's how I see it. Wen you sell your body -- or rent it out, or however you wanna call it -- you're actually selling yourself short.

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It's essentially saying what you say: "Sex is a neutral activity." Well, it ain't. At least not in my book. Your body is an integral part of you (save the times you're incorporeally possessing a spaceship). And, therefore, sex is, too.

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So, when you dissociate sex from your own self, as it were, in the sharing of your body for anything else but love, you're effectively taking away from your own value. That's the degrading part.

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So, it ain't about bodyguards, really, but 'bout guarding your body. Not out of some misguided, antiquated puritan notion of practicing self-denial as a spiritual discipline, but simply because the only real way to honor the integrity of your body is, well, to honor it. :)

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I was not talking about abuse victims. I was talking about adult women making this choice. It's easy to revert to an abused background to undermine that aspect but what about women who were not abused? Are their choices free and they not victims? Or do you think it impossible that someone would make that choice without being damaged in some way and thus not fully in control of their choices?

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Saffron is a very good example. Not the duplicitous, real Saffron, of course, but the innocent girl she pretends to be. How many girls do you think are for real like that? Many, I reckon. And Mal does the honorable thing: he takes no advantage, even though she offers--with a passion.

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But where would have been the harm had he accepted her offer? Why would be have been taking advantage? She - hypothetically - wanted it, was of age and actively pursued him. What would the harm have been?

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Often, if you look closer, they've had some sort of abusive past. And that, when they've come of age, may well think that a life of prostitution is a thing they freely 'choose'. I wouldn't call that a free choice, though.

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(...) Why not? If they, indeed, freely choose this, no one pressuring them, it is a free choice. It may not be a wise one, if it is born out of psychological problems, but it is a free one.

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What about casual sex, the type that Kaylee had with Bester or Mal had with Nandi? Was that degrading, too?

Do you allow for the option of sex without love as not-degrading? Because I certainly do.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

She wasn't on Sihnon, though!! It was a little backwater Training House. If you watch the deleted scenes, it comes through in how she talks about the girls. That's not Sihnon standard, certainly.

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She could have gone anywhere, really. And worked there. The movie put her in a Training House for the sake of convenience. It neglected a lot of things about her character for the sake of convenience, but this one bugs me the most because it takes away the greatest point of conflict between Mal and Inara and replaces it with "Mal has trouble admitting his feelings" which is just wrong, as he was about to tell her right there in "Heart of Gold".

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Originally posted by AMDOBELL:

Asarian, I totally agree with your comments on the problem being with Inara being in denial about being a whore rather than Mal not accepting her being a Companion. He very much wants to get her to take the blinkers off but that would be to tear down the fabricated shiny world in which Inara lives. The most telling comment Mal makes for me in "Shindig" is where he tells Inara that they don't see her and how it is the lie of it that gets him. He does not look down on her or disrepect her but rather sees her as better than the Companion she aspires to be. It hurts him to see her demean herself by pandering to people who have no actual love or affection for her.

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I think part of Inara's wariness when it comes to Mal is that he is not blinkered by her glamour, he sees her as she really is and she doesn't want to face that, to have to admit that what he says may hold merit so she undermines him. In Heart of Gold Inara rebukes an embarrassed Mal as he comes out of Nandi's room putting on his shirt by telling him that one of the good things about being a Companion is not being puritanical about sex. I wanted to laugh out loud especially as her reaction when she goes off to that room, sinks on the floor and cries her eyes out, does not support that assertion. She is also having problems with the sex, I think hitting home most forcibly because Mal spent the night with Nandi, a self confessed whore. While Inara pretends she is above that because she is a Companion I think she is secretly jealous of the freedom Nandi has to simply offer herself to Mal where Inara cannot. And she can hardly claim the moral highground when she deliberately pretends to have no feelings for Mal in that regard. She is the one after all who drew the line that must not be crossed from the outset ("I will not be servicing either you or your crew") so it is not as if he has been unfaithful to her yet that is how she acts.

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Originally posted by Platonist:

I agree to some degree with everything that has been said in regards to Inara and her view of herself and the role she services. But I don’t think for a minute that we should forget that Mal and Inara are both tragically flawed human characters that make mistakes, hurt each other and others (Nandi) in the process of protecting their insecurities and fragile egos. And as much as I agree that Inara lives a life of illusion, I can’t help but to sympathize with her plight as she was trained and indoctrinated at a young age (like 12?). Being a Companion is all she has ever known, and having Mal, the man she loves, constantly belittle and disrespect what she holds as a life truth must be unsettling and his behavior viewed, by her, as serving no purpose but to hurt her. It’s judgmental and destructive on Mal’s part and doesn’t in anyway endear me to respect HIM as a person. Gosh, Mal, do you think she got it that you thought her job was below you and degrading? I mean you told her every chance you got, and then you wondered why she left?

And after Nandi figured out what really going on, I don’t think she was very impressed with his behavior either, “You didn’t give me the whole truth, Mal”, any prospect of them having a relationship was null and void well before she got burned (no pun intended) by the fiasco of Mal and Inara’s dishonest floor show. She probably couldn’t wait until they got the hell off her moon.

As much as I too adore the series and love the movie, I do think that Inara’s understated arc in the movie is the shedding of her Companion facade, best illustrated at the end with her no make up scene. It is a step in the right direction for the both of them to work toward a more accepting relationship and a barb truce.

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Originally posted by Platonist:
I agree to some degree with everything that has been said in regards to Inara and her view of herself and the role she services. But I don’t think for a minute that we should forget that Mal and Inara are both tragically flawed human characters that make mistakes, hurt each other and others (Nandi) in the process of protecting their insecurities and fragile egos. And as much as I agree that Inara lives a life of illusion, I can’t help but to sympathize with her plight as she was trained and indoctrinated at a young age (like 12?). Being a Companion is all she has ever known, and having Mal, the man she loves, constantly belittle and disrespect what she holds as a life truth must be unsettling and his behavior viewed, by her, as serving no purpose but to hurt her. It’s judgmental and destructive on Mal’s part and doesn’t in anyway endear me to respect HIM as a person. Gosh, Mal, do you think she got it that you thought her job was below you and degrading? I mean you told her every chance you got, and then you wondered why she left?

And after Nandi figured out what really going on, I don’t think she was very impressed with his behavior either, “You didn’t give me the whole truth, Mal”, any prospect of them having a relationship was null and void well before she got burned (no pun intended) by the fiasco of Mal and Inara’s dishonest floor show. She probably couldn’t wait until they got the hell off her moon.

As much as I adore the series and love the movie, I do think that Inara’s understated arc in the movie is the shedding of her Companion facade, best illustrated at the end with her no make up scene. It is a step in the right direction for the both of them to work toward a more accepting relationship and a barb truce.

Bearing and sharing witness to the horrors of Miranda will cause life changing events for this crew. It's that big guys, it fried poor River's brain.

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Originally posted by wytchcroft:

unpopular opinion: i LOVE the comics!

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Originally posted by PhyreLight:
I have to voice my opinion: Heart of Gold is actually one of my top five episodes (including War Stories, Out of Gas, Our Mrs. Reynolds, and Serenity). Being an M/I 'shipper, I love it because it brings all of Mal and Inara's emotions out. And, that twist at the end. *gasp* :D

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Darksiders can keep their cookies. We have better writers.

Grrr. Argghh.

Really can't wait to see Cap'n Tightpants sing!
http://doctorhorrible.net/doctor-horrible-teaser-video/80


... Oh, my gosh. I've turned into one of those people with a crazy signature! ACK!! O_o

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Originally posted by miike:
i hear evolution is a pretty unpopular opinion at the moment

im just going out,i may be some time ]





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