How western do you think the show would have been? by reginaroadie

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

How western do you think the show would have been?

POSTED BY: REGINAROADIE
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 15:08
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VIEWED: 2724
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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:40 PM

I'm pretty sure this has been brought up before in an earlier thread, but I'm not going to dumpsterdive through five years of threads.

If the show had lasted for 5 to 7 years, and it did keep up it's sci-fi western themes and flavor, what plots and themes that have shown up in classic westerns do you think would have been explored through a sci-fi prism, or at least you would like to have seen?

Admittedly, I haven't seen too many westerns, but I have seen UNFORGIVEN and ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST, which are pretty much two movies that sum up the entire genre. And the one theme that I really responded to was the Saul Rubinek character, who was the guy who wrote the sensationalist dimestore novels about I think the Richard Harris character (forgive me, I havn't seen the movie in a while), and it touched on the themes of myth and legend and how all these dimestore novels about these legendary outlaws were all crap. What I would have liked to see is either a variation of my Lucas Anyong character in my fanfics as an author or journalist or filmmaker or something media related tracking the crew of Serenity to discover the real Malcolm Reynolds and see if the legends of this crew is true. Or, maybe a Robert Ford like character who becomes a member of the crew because he's been a fan and admirer of Mal who takes on this creepy overtone as someone who'd kill Mal for some fame of his own. Of course, I'm sure Mal would pick up on someone like that real quick and dispatch him immediately, but it still would have been interested to see a character like that on the show.

Also, the big theme that a lot of westerns deal with is basically the passage of time. How with the railroad, the wild west got tamed and with technology and better ways to communicate, the time of outlaws and cowboys passed. ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST really dealt with that. And I think maybe that's what the final season would have been. That maybe there'd be a newer, safer way of transporting (maybe something involving portals) created by a third party that would usurp the Alliance's general power and put the crew of Serenity out of a job. That transport ships are no longer necessary, which the show was already dealing with at the time, and that Mal represents an older, dying era. It would suck, but it would tie into it's western theme.

So how western do you think the show would have become, and what western style themes and stories would you have liked to see?

And before anyone says it, FIREFLY already did the pre-requisite SEVEN SAMURAI homage twice, so MAGNIFICENT SEVEN is out.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:58 PM

THEHEROOFWILLIAMTOWN

Well i think Heart of Gold is a prime example of the western influence on the show. I think they(writers) would have tapped into some of the old western movies for ideas but i think perhaps equally so they would have taken pieces of Asian cinema as well (no i don't mean Mal flying through Bamboo forests :P) and put a western spin on it. That was pretty much the world that Joss had in mind i think.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:09 PM

TRAVELER

Like science fiction you many themes in westerns. The cattle drive. We saw that when Simon got kidnaped. The faceoff. We saw that with the sword dual. The big shootout. We saw that with in the Heart of Gold. So a lot was already covered. The Train Job is a excellent example of how the best plan go south because you do know all the facts. This happens in Westerns where strangers enter a town that is having a feud and you don't learn right away who is the real protagonist. Sometime both sides are bad.

If you have seen the Magnificent Seven then you have watched an adoptation made from a Japanese Samurei story. There are several of these Japanese stories made into Westerns here in the United States.

So plot lines can be passed from one genre to another.

I am going to stop here because Westerns are another favorite of mine and I could go on for a long time.

I think Joss could have given us years of fun with this show. It was well thought out and could go in many directions.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:16 PM

REGINAROADIE

Oh no, please do go on. Westerns is one of the few genres I know little about, so if there are any big themes in westerns or cliched western plots that you know that havn't been in FIREFLY or SERENITY yet, speak now or forever hold your peace.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:06 PM

TRAVELER

Well Reginaroadie I will give you a list of some Westerns I enjoy. They may not fit in exactly with Firefly, but with some alterations Firefly episodes could use them.

"Man of the West" and "The Hanging Tree" with Gary Cooper
"Shane" with Alan Ladd
"The Searchers" and "Red River" with John Wayne
"The Missing" with Tommy Lee Jones and Cate Blanchett
"Open Range" with Robert Duval, Kevin Costner, and Annette Bening.

Some would be difficult because they deal with a lone person. like the "Hanging Tree" would be difficult to translate to a Firefly episode, but if a member of Serenity were to go off on an errand and run into trouble then that might work. In TV Westerns they would take one of the characters and send them off like that. In Bonansa, as an example, one of the brothers would ride off to check some distant part of the ranch and end up in a heap of trouble. Remember Simon and River were left alone for a while in "Safe".

Cattle drives and range wars would have several characters involved and then you would be able to involve the whole crew of Serenity.

Notice I did not give you the plots. You are going to have to rent them and watch them yourself.
I am being cunning and drawing you into watching Westerns.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:30 PM

REGINAROADIE

Well, I've seen "The Missing" and "Open Range". And I wanna see if I can rent a Blu-Ray edition of THE SEARCHERS. I know it has a big reputation of being one of if not THE greatest western ever made, and I have to admit I was truly amazed with ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST, so I'm a little afraid it might not live up to 50 plus years of anticipation.

Distant part of the ranch? How big was the ranch in BONANZA? I mean, I grew up on a farm in the prairies, and we do have a lot of land. But not so big as to get lost and come across a gang ready to slaughter us for our holdings (which would mostly be grain, we never were in livestock).

I dunno. In the FINDING SERENITY book, there's an essay that talked about how FIREFLY was doomed from the start in that it was part western, when about thirty years ago the western as a popular genre on tv burnt itself out. And that any attempt to bring it back is always an ironic revision of it that could never gain popularity. Not only with FIREFLY, but also BRISCO COUNTY JR. and DEADWOOD. You could argue that DEADWOOD was the most successful of the three, but I doubt that 20 years of GUNSMOKE and how many years of BONANZA had the eloquence and vulgarity of a single ep of DEADWOOD. I have no idea how on GUNSMOKE they were able to come up with 20 years of stories.

I'll definitely look out for those you suggested and try to expand my knowledge of movie westerns. I did recently listen to an audiobook of BLOOD MERIDIAN by Cormac McCarthy. Hopefully with the success of NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN and the possible success of THE ROAD that BLOOD MERIDIAN will be adapted. Cormac is my new favorite author. Have you read any of his books? It's like he's working on another level of consciousness. And while I havn't read NO COUNTRY, the film perfectly captures with visuals and editing Cormac's prose, which is his greatest strength as an author.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:32 PM

SCHOONER

Quote:
Originally posted by reginaroadie:
Oh no, please do go on. Westerns is one of the few genres I know little about, so if there are any big themes in westerns or cliched western plots that you know that havn't been in FIREFLY or SERENITY yet, speak now or forever hold your peace.

Great thread! Here's a few I would've liked to see, and would still love to read.

A Fistful of Dollars (adapted from Yojimbo)
Firefly version: The BDHs arrive at a settlement (maybe a large Skyplex) that's dominated by two rival gangs whose rivalry is destroying the lives of the townsfolk. Mal and company play both groups against each other, freeing the town by tricking the gangs into destroying one another.

The Searchers
Someone near and dear to the crew has been kidnapped, and Serenity pursues the kidnappers to the ends of the 'verse to get them back. Alternately, borrow from "The Ransom of Red Chief". River is kidnapped by some not-too-bright criminals. Instead of going crazy or kicking ass, River just makes their lives completely miserable. When Mal sees what River has done to them, he offers to take her back for more money than the kidnappers asked for in the first place.

Grizzly! And a bunch of dime novels from the period.
Possibly a Mal or Jayne solo episode. An unusually fierce animal is preying on the town (possibly some pre-Pax experiment?). It's a battle of wits and wills to see who is the deadlier predator.

There's lots more, I'm sure.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 7:32 PM

TRAVELER

I have not read Cormac McCarthy. To many movies and books out there I want to read or should find out about. Never enough time to get to them all.

I joined a book club just to discover authors I have never read before. I have to admit there is a lot of fine writers out there I have yet to discover, So joining the book club has really opened up a whole new batch of authors for me.

Ponderosa was large. They sometimes traveled days to reach sections of it. Of course they also left the ranch on various reasons. So the Cartwrights found themselves all over the west.

I do miss the TV westerns. You are right about them burning us out on them. I liked Brisco County Jr. Was a little angry when the took that off the air.

The early Westerns did have long durations. The Lone Ranger was another show that was on for years. Rawhide was one of my favorites though. I was not surprised that Clint Eastwood went from that show to do a swarm of Western movies.

Westerns still appeal to the movie crowd. I enjoyed Open Range, Missing, and The Unforgiven. So at least we get to see an occasional movie of the old west.

I thought people had forgotten Spaghetti Westerns and then the Quick And The Dead came out a few years ago. I did not think anyone would make one of those again. I do not know how well it did, but I enjoyed seeing it.

Well I have to get to bed. So when you have the time rent some of those movies I listed. I highly recommend The Searchers. Not your typical John Wayne movie.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:11 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

I keep nibbling at a fanfic where the ship lands and Mal gets stuck as Sheriff, cleaning up the bad guys who are threatening the place.

Classic Western theme, so common it's a cliche.

Sadly, I can't figure out exactly what I want to do with it, so the fingers aren't dancin' across the keyboard.

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Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:25 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
Well Reginaroadie I will give you a list of some Westerns I enjoy. They may not fit in exactly with Firefly, but with some alterations Firefly episodes could use them.

"Man of the West" and "The Hanging Tree" with Gary Cooper
"Shane" with Alan Ladd
"The Searchers" and "Red River" with John Wayne
"The Missing" with Tommy Lee Jones and Cate Blanchett
"Open Range" with Robert Duval, Kevin Costner, and Annette Bening.

I've not watched many Westerns in the past decade or two , but I saw a few when I was half as old as I am now...

Most recently , I did see '3:10 to Yuma' , which I liked very much !

Traveler , your mentioning of 'Open Range' reminded me of something...I've yet to see the entire movie , or even very much of it , but I was at my father's house a few nights ago and saw a bit of it for a few minutes , and I got to thinking , " Wow , Annette Bening's character sure is like Kaylee would be when she gets to be about that age ! ".

I wonder if you might see that also , on further reflection...

'Roadie' , I always enjoy your thoughtful and well-written posts...I want to put some of your film recommendations on my list...Can you give me a link to that prior thread where you'd listed a film that was about the end of the world , and the screen went white while 'Guantanamera' played on the soundtrack ?

Further Westerns that stand out in my mind , upon first thought :

'The Outlaw Josey Wales'
'The Sons of Katie Elder'
'The Quick and the Dead'

I'll think on it a while longer...There's one with Lee Marvin and Ron Howard and Charles Martin Smith , with the word 'Gang' in the title , but I'll have to IMDB that one...

I've had a revival of my interest in Westerns post-Firefly , but haven't gotten to catch up very much...

The themes translate across genres...If one thinks about it , 'The High Road To China' has a very Western construction about it , but it's not even available on DVD !

Also , I think films like 'House of Flying Daggers' , 'Crouching Tiger , Hidden Dragon' , and 'Hero' , have universal themes that could be fruitfully explored in the Firefly 'Verse...Especially with their Asian sensibilities and flavors...

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Wednesday, November 28, 2007 7:24 AM

STARTROOP

I have several old westerns that would have made inspirations for FireFly or even Serenity II

True Grit and Rooster Cogburn. I think that the whole bounty hunter thing would work well with Firefly. You could play it were it was a really bad guy that should go to jail or the misunderstood criminal sort.

Rio Lobo, the drunk Sheriif calls in his friends when he hits bottom to clean up a town gone bad while he was lost in the bottle grieving over a lost love.

The Shootist The last gunfight for an aging gun fighter. Mal could indentify with him and be broken hearted when he dies and perhaps gains insight into his life.

Yeah, I like John Wayne ;-)

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Wednesday, November 28, 2007 7:30 AM

CHRISISALL

I liked the above listed films, and also Nevada Smith, and Bite The Bullet.

But Brisco rules Chrisisall

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Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:13 AM

STARTROOP

I thought of a couple more while at work.

McLintock, flying in the ransom for someone that is really a rescue attempt because the kidnapper was a really bad guy (Maybe Mischa?)

I really liked "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" but it would be a stretch to put the crew in that scenario.

Why do I like John Wayne so much? My dad was 6'4" and looked very much like him. When I was 5, I asked my mom if those movies we were watching were about dad. I was heartbroken to find out that it wasn't so ;-)

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Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:36 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

I have to admit to not being a Westerns fan. In fact I like them just a notch above musicals! Which aint much.

However that said. There are some great FILMS out there that are westerns and those I love.

1. The Good The Bad and The Ugly.

2 The Bravados

3. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid.

How to relate them to Firefly; well in the case of The Good The Bad and The Ugly, you could have had a similar plot motif to, in search of treasure, reportedly on some outer rim planet that sees two other craft aswell as SERENITY and its crew go in search of. In the process all three crews (one of whom should be a rouge Alliance craft) must at some stage deal with each other in order to reach said treasure until such stage develops, where there is an almighty shoot-out. It shouldn't be treaure though. Maybe something like a pardon for previous misdemeanours, that carry's weight for Mal and Serenity.

In terms of the Bravados. That's a little bit tricky, as it was mostly a one man effort but again you could always make it a rival crew thing.

Butch and Sundance. Well just a good old fashioned hunt across the universe, although SERENITY did this to a certain extent, but this time it's not just the Alliance after our crew but just about every other pirate and bounty hunter in the 'verse going after Serenity and cornering them in some god foresaken part of a solar system, hey maybe even Earth that was! This would have to be the final ever episode of Firefly as it would need to leave us with that enigmatic ending.

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Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:40 AM

JEANDASK

I wasn't overly keen on Westerns before being a bit too young but Firefly realy got me into it, don't have enough time to watch all I'd like too but your list are really helpful!!

How come things never go smooth
'My feet are warm, two pairs of socks warm.' Claire Bennet

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Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:47 AM

JONGSSTRAW

The 1950's - 1960's was the "golden age" of Westerns on TV. I don't know them all, but some are :
Bonanza
Gunsmoke
Big Valley
Death Valley Days
Rawhide
Lancer
High Chapparel
Wagon Train
Lone Ranger
Rin Tin Tin
The Rifleman
Branded
Broken Arrow

The best of these shows usually involved bad folk hurting good folk......then the good folk fight back and win over the bad folk. Throw in a family and friends..and voila...you've got some great shows. Just re-hashing the decades of episodes of Bonanza & Gunsmoke alone would provide Joss with thousands of plot ideas to build on and re-make into Firefly episodes.

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Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:08 PM

TRAVELER

This one popped into my head as I was driving home from work.

Sean Connery made a science fiction film call "Outland" that is based on "High Noon" with Gary Cooper. So this crossover has some history to it. I'm sure others have done similar crossovers. As I said several Westerns are based on Japanese stories. So the theme gets passed on from one genre to another.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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