What Religion is Book? by Lukasaurus

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What Religion is Book?

POSTED BY: LUKASAURUS
UPDATED: Sunday, July 11, 2004 04:06
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VIEWED: 11444
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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:28 AM

DUCESTECUM

Surely you jest... lol

"And I'm thinkin' you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling"

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 7:36 AM

ZOID

SigmaNunki wrote:

Quote:
This just tells me what kind of person you really are.

No, it just tells you the kind of job I really do. I hold a job "in the public trust", which means I have a legal and moral responsibility for the safety of public transportation.

If I were you -- and thankfully, I'm not -- I'd check my attitude at the (airport) door. That's not a threat, that's the reality of post-9/11. Take your own advice, and trust that the people who actually do the job know its details better than you do. ...Or don't, as you wish.

You may now have the final word, or a string of them if you wish. I will continue to say what I want, when I want; but, I will not further respond to your posts on this or any other topic. I promise.

Have a nice life,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 7:49 AM

HEB

Quote:

Nope. I was at Border's today

Aaaaah! Don't say that!

Sorry they've just built a Border's in my town and our poor little Waterstone's book shop (where I work) is having a job competing. The poor people at Border's have been very vilified at our store.

Ok sorry. I'm over it now.

Anyway.
Thanks for the recommendations Zoid.

If people don't mind can I offer up a Richard Feynman quote?:

'The principle of science, the definition, almost, is the following: 'The test of all knowledge is experiment'

I don't really know if that adds anything to the discussion or not but in my opinion that although scientists may subscribe to beliefs in a unified theory, for example, it does not necessarily mean that the belief in a unified theory is a faith that science itself has.

However perhaps the one assumption that 'the test of all knowledge is experiment' is enough of an assumption to be classed as a faith, or perhaps people do not condsider that to be an accurate definition of science. I don't know, I guess I haven't thought about it myself all that much. I'll have to get around to that.

Any book recommendations for someone about to start their undergraduate physics degree please SigmaNunki? (simple ish is good)

Also, if someone could tell me how to get this post into non-quote font, then that would be good.

Thanks.
heb

ps. (edited to say - I think I finally figured out how to get this in the right font. Perhaps really simple would be best SigmaNunki)

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 8:05 AM

ZEKE023

Quote:
Originally posted by Delia:

Aren't there Buddist monks?

Yes. :) But Book calls himself a Christian (in the cut scenes from serenity. I always thought it was interesting that the cut that line from the final cut. In fact that whole conversation he has with Inara in the final cut of Serenity is kind of trite compared to the version that available on the internet.

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:43 AM

FOURSKYS

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:
Any book recommendations for someone about to start their undergraduate physics degree please SigmaNunki? (simple ish is good)

As someone who recently completed undergrad in physics (Well, Astrophysics, but it's close), and someone who's just starting their grad school career (2nd year in Grad student in Physics), I can highly recommend the Math Physics book that Sigmanunki recommended. The book by Boas has proved extrodinarily useful for me, throughout both undergrad and grad school. Easy to read, and quite a good reference.

Also, I'd like to comment a bit, if I can, on the whole "the metaphysics of physics" argument that's been going on. It seems that Zoid was trying to argue from the metaphysical standpoint, which is always something that scientists (like myself) like to debate, but something that is definitely not brought into physics literature. True progress in the sciences is made through refereed journals, where a commitee of your peers evaluate your results for their factual and lagical corectness. Whereas the popular science books are not corroborated by anyone. While the authors are certainly well respected members of the scientific community, that does not mean that those books, as a whole, represent the views of the whole community. If the philosphy behind the equations were to ever be sent to a scientific publication (The Astrophysical Joural, The Physical Review, etc.), the reviewers would most likely ask for its removal before its publication. The actual science most always tries to avoid the philosophy and the metaphysics. While the individual scientist might believe it, the community, as a whole, is designed to remove those beliefs.

Like I said, I'm a scientist, and I have fairly strong personal and religious beliefs, but when it comes to a scientific discussion, the facts are on the table, not the philosophy. There's a big difference, and its not always easy to differentiate between the two, but it is always important.

P.S. - SigmaNunki, if your wife has any published papers on EPR, or even some good reviews, I'd be very interested in taking a look at them. GR's always been one of my pet subjects, and EPR sounds really cool, but I don't know much of the theory behind it. If you wouldn't object to posting a link or a journal, I'd love to read something on the subject.

Thanks

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:04 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:
I don't really know if that adds anything to the discussion or not but in my opinion that although scientists may subscribe to beliefs in a unified theory, for example, it does not necessarily mean that the belief in a unified theory is a faith that science itself has.

Thank you.

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:
Any book recommendations for someone about to start their undergraduate physics degree please SigmaNunki? (simple ish is good)

A lot of universities use this book for the first 2 years of study. You can get it as a huge back breaking hardcover or you can get it as a set of softcover books.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0030317169/ref=pd_sim_bo
oks_1/103-0993404-5570265?v=glance&s=books

Fundamental University Physics
by Marcelo Alonso, Edward J. Finn
Again, you can get it as a 3 volume set or as one big book. It is the one that the wife learned from and she says it is quite good.

You might also look up "The Feynman Lectures on Physics". There is a couple of editions of this one. It is quite famous. People say he just was able to explain things clearly. Rare among physics books. Haven't used them myself, but, they come with high regard. Haven't heard anything bad at all.

All these tend to start off with no calculus, but, will require it after a couple of chapters.

For calculus I have "Calculus: A complete course" by Robert A. Adams. It isn't really good for learning, but, according to a consulted math prof a good one to hang onto for reference if you end up in math or the sciences. So, I suffered through it.

My university used "Calculus" by James Stewart for the first two years.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/053439339X/qid=1082494012/sr=2-
1/ref=sr_2_1/103-0993404-5570265

I advise that you pop into the local university library so you can look through them and why not pop by the physics department and ask what book they use. So, if you are tight on funds, you won't waste ~ $100 - $150 on a book. That is assuming your local library doesn't have any of these.

University libraries typically (in Canada) don't allow the general public to take out book unless they pay a yearly fee (usually a large one at that). But, they can't regulate who comes and goes. So, you could also just walk in and study there if you can spare the time.

But, when it comes to picking out a book, it is somewhat of a personal choice. Page through a couple and see what you think. That physics department would be able to offer more options that I can

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:
Also, if someone could tell me how to get this post into non-quote font, then that would be good.

Not sure what you mean. Replace <> with square brackets and remove the spaces.

end quote is which you are clearly using. If you mean the bold. There is a < B > tag at the beginning of all quotes. If you delete the end of the quote then the bold stays on. So, delete the < B > at the beginning or before the end quote add a < /B >. I hope that helps.

----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:14 AM

HEB

Thanks SigmaNunki and FOURSKYS I appreciate all the recommendations. If I can just get my A-levels out of the way, then maybe I can get down to trying to learn some of the interesting, proper physics rather than the rather deadly syllabus I'm learning at the moment.

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:19 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by FourSkys:
P.S. - SigmaNunki, if your wife has any published papers on EPR, or even some good reviews, I'd be very interested in taking a look at them. GR's always been one of my pet subjects, and EPR sounds really cool, but I don't know much of the theory behind it. If you wouldn't object to posting a link or a journal, I'd love to read something on the subject.

First off, thanks for the back up.

From the wife:

Reasearch on that topic has just started again afew years ago. Since it is a current research topic there is no review articles and certainly no books about it, pop or otherwise. If I come across something I'll have SigmaNunki send it to you.

----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:24 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:
...than the rather deadly syllabus I'm learning at the moment.

LOL

Seriously though, good luck

----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 5:31 PM

SUNDERWOOD

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Have we ruled out Book being a Mormon? They're Christian.

My wife is somewhat a former Mormon. They don't have Priest. They have Bishops that are chosen from devout and studious congregation. The Bishop usually has a day job also.

Plus Mormons, though recognize the Bible, view the Book of Mormon as the latest teaching. Book has a Bible and no Book of Mormon.

Mormons marry (once) and have a large family. Book is celebate.

Book never mentions Joseph Smith though he refers to Jesus often.

There are many other items that show he's not Mormon.

I think Static has it way the heck up there when he said that Book is a mixture of Religions with maybe a few unknowns thrown in. This takes into account changing beliefs around a central core and keeps it more generic and to the point.

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 5:54 PM

ZOID

Sunderwood wrote:

Quote:
I think Static has it way the heck up there when he said that Book is a mixture of Religions with maybe a few unknowns thrown in. This takes into account changing beliefs around a central core and keeps it more generic and to the point.

Based on the conversation Book has with Jayne in OiS on the topic of celibacy, I'd say there had been some sort of merging of the Christian sects into one religious entity. Book states that some orders allow marriage, but that he follows a stricter path (paraphrased). It seems supportable that Catholicism and (some of?) the various Protestant sects have been reunited, but that he follows the more restrictive Catholic path. Alternatively, the Catholic Church itself has reformed, and 'Jesuits' -- just as a f'rinstance -- practice 'old school' celibacy, while other orders analogous to 'Franciscans' or 'Dominicans' have eliminated the practice of celibacy.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 2:17 AM

HEB

Thanks!

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:15 AM

FOURSKYS

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

From the wife:

Reasearch on that topic has just started again afew years ago. Since it is a current research topic there is no review articles and certainly no books about it, pop or otherwise. If I come across something I'll have SigmaNunki send it to you.

Excellent, I'll look forward to it.

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 9:21 AM

PARADIGMSHIFT

While I agree that, from the vestiments and celibacy, Book is highly influenced by Catholic doctrine, and that his religion is probaby a conglomeration, I wouldn't discount elements of Taoism, Buddhism and other Eastern religions mixed in. After all, Joss specifically noted the combinations of the east and west, and i doubt that religion stayed out of this coming together.

"Once, just once, I'd like to be able to land someplace and say, 'Behold, I am the Archangel Gabriel.'"
"I fail to see the humor in that situation, Doctor."
"Naturally. You could hardly claim to be an angel with those pointed ears, Mister Spock. But say you landed someplace with a pitchfork . . ."
-McCoy and Spock

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 12:28 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

its futuristic Catholicism. and i like it much better than the Catholic of today!

just trust me. i go to a catholic school

Well isn't that...special

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 2:41 PM

JASONZZZ

Might be interested in this then...

An Austrian project by Dr. Anton Zeilinger claimed they have made the first secured bank transfer using Quantum Cryptograpy based on Entangled Protons.

http://www.quantenkryptographie.at/

Quote:
Originally posted by FourSkys:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

From the wife:

Reasearch on that topic has just started again afew years ago. Since it is a current research topic there is no review articles and certainly no books about it, pop or otherwise. If I come across something I'll have SigmaNunki send it to you.

Excellent, I'll look forward to it.

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 4:56 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Jasonzzz: Thanks for the heads up.

edit, found the rival teams paper. This is the one.

quant-ph/0404115

Seems the other team is going after the distance records and this one is applying it "real world". Looking forward to new developments.

Any comments FourSkys?

----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 5:11 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
I believe that Book is the representative of some sort of faith built around the construction trades. He said in "Heart of Gold" that he'd been following the teachings of a carpenter.

Book saying this could also mean, that Book had been following the teachings of a carpenter, a very famous carpenter, i would go far as to say the most famous carpenter of all time... (and no i'm not talking about Ty pennington from Trading Spaces)....Jesus. Book could have been speaking figuratively.

Well isn't that...special

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Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:18 AM

FOURSKYS

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Jasonzzz: Thanks for the heads up.

quant-ph/0404115

Any comments FourSkys?

Definitely interesting on both accounts, but as my knowledge of Quantum information systems is little at best, I'm not going to have much more insight than you will. They do seem very interesting, and I hope to give them a quick look over in the next couple days. When I find some free time, I'll let you know.

Thanks both

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Saturday, July 10, 2004 6:29 PM

ZAFTIGZOE

Quote:
Originally posted by LtNOWIS:
I agree that he's a Christian mix. Possibly formed when Chinese Christians settle new planets and mix in some Buddhist elements, like the meditation.

Actually, elements of Zen Buddist practice(particularly meditation) are being used by Catholics and Anglicians worldwide. Nuns, in particular, seem to think that it a cool thing.

a culturally Roman Catholic Pagan
ZaftigZoe

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Saturday, July 10, 2004 7:06 PM

SCOTTISHBROWNCOAT

Time for this Practicing Catholic to shed some light on the concept of celibacy in the church.

The Catholic church proper(The Catholic Church as led by our Holy Father Pope John Paul II) is comprised up of 27 distinct Rites with the "Roman rite" being the largest, the Priests in the Roman Rite cannot marry no matter what order; Jesuit, Dominican, Franciscan, etc. None of the priests can marry....
With the EXCEPTION of those priests who were Anglican at one point and Came back to the Holy See, those former Anglican Priests that chose to remain priests and that already have families may stay married and stay a priest, so Yes the Roman Rite does have a handful of married Priests.

Now there is also the Eastern Rites, still under the Pope, these are Rites that at some point broke away from their Orthodox Patriarchs and rejoined the Family of Catholics.
A few of these rites are....

Byzantine Rite, Armenian Rite, Ukranian Rite etc.

These priests can marry as long as their were married before they became a Deacon.

Now the Rites of the East are just as Catholic as the Western Roman Rite, and any Catholic can receive communion in any Church under the Vatican.

So, I can give confession and receive communion at a Byzantine Catholic Church and Byzantine Catholics can go to Roman Rite Churches and do the same.

You can also Change rites once in your life with the permission from your Bishop, but this is frowned upon.

The Differences between the rites vary, but you will find that Eastern Catholic Churches tend to look and feel more Orthodox.

My Godfather is a Eastern Catholic Priest and I can say that the differences are only asthetic, the loyality to the Holy Father and the legitimacy of the Mass is what is important.

So in short, Yes some Catholic Priests can marry, just not the Roman Rite Priests, but they can if they used to be Anglican Priests...lol....confusing?

Hope this clears up...somethin'

~SBC

P.S. I think Book is part of some kind of New Christianity as well, blending elements of all kinds.

However in the script for Serenity doesn't Book go up to a ship and as the man says "No Catholics or Asians" he leaves and heads toward Serenity.
It wasn't in the final cut, and I don't think it was even filmed, but I do remember reading that scene.

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Sunday, July 11, 2004 4:06 AM

RHUTTNER

Quote:
Originally posted by ScottishBrownCoat:
However in the script for Serenity doesn't Book go up to a ship and as the man says "No Catholics or Asians" he leaves and heads toward Serenity.
It wasn't in the final cut, and I don't think it was even filmed, but I do remember reading that scene.

You are correct, it is in the shooting script:

BOOK
I'm not a grandpa.

The guy just looks at him like he's crazy, let's him move on past the
next barker, MAN #2. The guy is fancy, with people gathered around --
his ship is clearly high class.

MAN #2
-- three berths left, junior suites,
we are not interested in Asian or
Catholic passengers, thank you, we
will be bidding for the last three
berths --

Also in the shooting script, as well as the original unaired version of Serenity, Book tells Inara he is Christian:

BOOK
Ma'am, I'm sorry to tell you that I
have no interest in your body, or
what you do with it. It's true, I'm
a Christian, and we don't exactly
celebrate the flesh trade, but that's
your business. It's perfectly legal.
And I'm beginning to suspect it's the
only business on this boat that is.

Are you an official Browncoat? If not, go sign up gorram it! http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/?u=rhuttner

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