Quote:

---

Originally posted by Miramel:

ooo- i like it!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by shinyseven2:
If she *was* the soul of the ship it might explain why pieces keep dropping off...

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by bobecc:
Jayne: Jayne's kind of like the penis of the ship. I know this sounds vulgar at first, but it makes since if you think about it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiverFlan:
AR there's a thread about that theory:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=31039#549873

I semi-agree with that theory, but not by much. Mal is a many-sided person, but so's the rest of the crew. They might not be as obvious about it, but they aren't just "I'm Mal's __". The caracters reflect bits of him, but they aren't actually bits of him. You could do the same thing for Inara, Book, Wash being the star "actual and whole" person, with Mal being their "confused side"

Back to the topic, I agree with someone above me that Mal is the head/brain of Serenity. As for River... I don't think she's quite the soul/spirit of the ship, but more like sub-concious part of the brain, the part that tries to make random scraps of memory it gleans into a story, or a dream. She makes as much sense as a dream, too, cause when you're in the dream it makes perfect sense but when you wake up, it flies in the face of reason. Her memories of Miranda, the Hands of Blue, and other scary stuff like that are the nightmares.

Swirligigs!
#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#

\~~~*~~^~~*~~~/
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Some folks have posted here that they think Inara represents "love". I would ask...what love?

---

Quote:

---

once again I'd have to say that no one represents the "love" of what Serenity is more than Capt. Mal.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mal4prez:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Some folks have posted here that they think Inara represents "love". I would ask...what love?

---

This is the thing I find so interesting about Inara - yes, her time with her clients is clearly something acted, not matter how she argues that it's a real thing, a choice and all. But if you watch her around the crew, she is very motherly. She is always there to comfort Book, to offer her cloak to naked River, to brush Kaylee's hair, to empathasize with Simon on his disastrous birthday. She is love - when she's not doing her Companion act. Which makes me wonder why she's chosen to be a Companion...

So - you admit yourself, she's loving to the crew. Well, that's the thing. These people all find their own true selves when they're on this ship. What they are outside it is an act, a survival mode. Except for maybe Kaylee... she's pretty real no matter what.

Quote:

---

once again I'd have to say that no one represents the "love" of what Serenity is more than Capt. Mal.

---

This I agree with! That is what is so wonderful, that he thinks he's such a bad guy and acts all gruff, but he's the one who had the vision to buy the ship and put it together as a home for them all. He's the one who chose each new member of the crew. He brought in Zoe, recruited Wash, asked Kaylee to stay, rented the shuttle to Inara, thought to talk Jayne into changing sides, asked Simon to stay with River. And I guess he didn't throw Book off LOL!

Mal gathered this group. If there's a binding force that creates this entity and holds it together, it's Mal. And I don't think he did it out of thought or planning. I think he had a feel for these people; he intuitively saw them as the folks he wanted with him. That's why I think he's the soul.

And if you're saying he's the brain... could be you're not recallin' some of the captain's plans...

As for River, I rally do mean the wounded paw thing. She came to them hurt, hurt in a way that everyone saw and felt. They helped heal her, and she became both a tool for sensing the world outside them, (drawing Mal back into the fight) and a weapon. Girl's got claws. Mostly, I just feel like she's a connection to the outside world. She draws them out, away from the ship's business and into the larger problems of the world.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiverFlan:


I semi-agree with that theory, but not by much. Mal is a many-sided person, but so's the rest of the crew. They might not be as obvious about it, but they aren't just "I'm Mal's __". The caracters reflect bits of him, but they aren't actually bits of him. You could do the same thing for Inara, Book, Wash being the star "actual and whole" person, with Mal being their "confused side"

---

Quote:

---

Back to the topic, I agree with someone above me that Mal is the head/brain of Serenity. As for River... I don't think she's quite the soul/spirit of the ship, but more like sub-concious part of the brain, the part that tries to make random scraps of memory it gleans into a story, or a dream. She makes as much sense as a dream, too, cause when you're in the dream it makes perfect sense but when you wake up, it flies in the face of reason. Her memories of Miranda, the Hands of Blue, and other scary stuff like that are the nightmares.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
How do you think River communicated individually to Kaylee & Mal from Early's ship? Was it some sort of focused transmittal beam, or did she use telepathy to "speak" to them?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I'm pretty blown away with your personal insights on this subject...very impressive stuff!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Mal = Serenity
Zoe = all things survival
Wash = balance, normality, trust
Kaylee = hope
Inara = love, sensuality
Jayne = base insticts
Book = external value system (religion)
Simon = internal value system (nobility)
River = spirit (internal force)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

River, though, makes sense outside of dream-logic, too. Her problems are real and her powers are too super-natural to account for something as natural as the subconscious. It's not just a case of connecting unconnected facts.

She doesn't just know things that the others aren't consciously aware of, she knows things they could not naturally be aware of, and she definitely poses lots of moral and philosophical questions to the crew. That's a bit more spiritual than mere psychology.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiverFlan:
I'm not saying that River is only a dream. I'm saying is the sub-concious part, and that parts of her act like dreams do. And she uses her powers subconciously mostly- she doesn't think "Oh, I'll just read this person's mind today". And it could be argued that the subconcious has the spirit inside it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by christhecynic:

I seem to remember someone, I think it might have been Joss on one of the commentaries, saying that Mal gathered people together who represented parts of him, some of them parts that he had cut out of himself.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiverFlan:
yes, but I don't know another way to describe her... I don't think she's Serenity's soul because Serenity has her own soul already. It's what made Mal fall in love with Serenity.

---

Quote:

---

Also, I didn't come into this thread to argue about labels for River.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I guess that's the point where we disagree. :) I don't see Serenity as an entity of her own. To me, she is imbued with meaning by the people on her, like all objects, and Mal will only be truly free when he reaches the point where he doesn't need her anymore.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by christhecynic:

Whether we want to say River is the subconscious or not is another question entirely, but I just want to point out that I don't think, "Her effect on the others is not a subconscious one but a very aware one, too," is a valid reason for her not to be since often times you're very aware of the effect your subconscious has on you, even if not why it is having that effect.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by christhecynic:
What I'm saying is that the same can be said of your own subconscious. You are very aware of the effect it has on you. You like this person, you don't like that person, this idea comes to you, you had a dream about world domination and decided to start working towards that in a nearby industrial district, whatever.

Effects are like that, you are consciously aware of them. You have to be. If you weren't then they wouldn't be effecting your conscious at all, and thus they wouldn't be effects at all. Whenever your subconscious effects your conscious mind you are consciously aware of it by definition.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by christhecynic:
What I'm saying is that the same can be said of your own subconscious. You are very aware of the effect it has on you. You like this person, you don't like that person...

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by christhecynic:

To approach this from another direction:

If we were to posit that River represents the subconscious, then anything that remained at a subconscious level would be represented by things staying with her and not effecting the others.

When she does have an effect on the others that would be representative of the subconscious having an effect on something other than the subconscious. Something other than the unconscious is the conscious. So whenever she has an effect on the crew it is like the subconscious having an effect on the conscious.

When the subconscious has an effect on the conscious the conscious is aware of that effect, and aware of what it does as a result of that effect. Thus the crew should be aware of the effect River has on them, and what they do as a result of that effect. What they should not, necessarily, be aware of is why River had the effect she did.

They clearly don't know why River said Saffron was a thief, they don't know why she said, "Two by two, hands of blue," or why she slashed Jayne with a knife, just as a person doesn't know why their subconscious has the effects it does. They are aware of the effects, not the causes, just as with one's subconscious.

-

I'm not saying that River does represent that, I just honestly don't think the reason for rejecting it is valid.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Isn't, though, a characteristic of the subconscious, that it contains information we could theoretically be aware of? Information that is at our disposal but that we filter for biological or psychological reasons? And that the sunconscious reasons we have for things are directly related to their effect on us?

---

Quote:

---

Because, I do not think that those things apply to River.

---

Quote:

---

Her reasons for acting the way she does are generally irrelevant to how her actions affect the crew - how the crew reacts to her.

---

Quote:

---

She identifies Saffron as a thief. The crew have no reason to know that outside of what River says. It's not a subconscious piece of knowledge they deny, more like a random newsfeed. And they entirely ignore her, rightfully.

---

Quote:

---

River's secrets, in a word, generally have no effect. Only her actions do.

---

Quote:

---

Her reasons for those actions are generally irrelevant to how the crew would react, unlike what we associate with subconscious reasons for our behavior with are direct causes of their own effect on us.

---