Hmm, maybe Vera would have worked without the suit? by jake7

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Hmm, maybe Vera would have worked without the suit?

POSTED BY: JAKE7
UPDATED: Monday, February 4, 2008 21:59
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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:06 AM

Interesting bit of info here that would totally change how things were done on Firefly:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mgunsinspace.html

First thing I thought of was "I wonder if this guys is a Browncoat?"
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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:28 AM

FUTCHFACTOR

assuming Vera is a conventional gun ;-)
the ammo clip on the back suggests so.

i thought the very same when i saw the show. bullets are squeezed shut so 02 is not gonna get in there anyway.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:31 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Yup, cartridge firearms do not need an external source of oxygen to fire. Of course that write up ignores a possible real problem for firearm usage in space: vacuum welding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_cementing It turns out that without a layer of gas between moving metal parts they have a strong tendency to fuse together into a single non moving lump. It was a problem in early satellites and requires using some non standard components on any parts that need to move against each other. Outgassing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outgassing is another potential problem as it would tend to degrade the performance of any lubricants.

So it is possible that what Jayne said was true but not for the reason most commonly supposed. Most people who think on this stuff agree that for only a few shots neither problem I cited is likely to be severe enough to cause a firearm to seize up. Maybe Jayne is just overprotective. Or since Jayne says "Vera needs oxygen" perhaps there is something about how that specific weapon works that doesn't apply to cartridge firearms of this century or even weapons in general of the 26th century.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:36 AM

JAKE7

For some reason, I always had the impression that Vera was a 20-21st century gun...now that I think about it, that seems a silly thing to think.

Of course, this makes me wonder:
If it was a "future" gun, wouldn't it have been made to work in space? Or would the gun manufacturers all assume that gunfights only took place planet-side?

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MAL: Everybody's makin' a fuss.
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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:40 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by jake7:

Or would the gun manufacturers all assume that gunfights only took place planet-side?

I think that would be a safe assumption, LOL.

It ain't Star Warsisall

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:47 AM

ASARIAN

Writer dude wrote:

"So the lack of oxygen likely wouldn't put a damper on outer-space gunplay. Temperature, on the other hand, could be a problem. (...) It's certainly possible that a handgun way out in the middle of interstellar nowhere might become so cold that the gunpowder in the cartridge no longer reliably ignites and burns fast enough to produce an explosion. That’s not a result specifically of being in space, though, but simply of being very, very cold."

Hmmm, I can already hear River say:

"You're afraid Vera's going to run out of air. That she'll die gasping. But she won't. That's not going to happen. She'll freeze to death first."

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:57 AM

JAKE7

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I think that would be a safe assumption, LOL.

We all know what happens when you assume, right?

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MAL: Everybody's makin' a fuss.
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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 7:06 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by jake7:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I think that would be a safe assumption, LOL.

We all know what happens when you assume, right?

Th Odd Couple lives forever...

Madisoyisall

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 7:38 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER

Gottoldisall

Been here for the discussion before and I love that new issues surface. I think the temperature issue associated to powder might be a null issue in the 'verse. From the sound of things there is a different, electronically ignited propellant involved. Looking at the solid propellant caseless cartridges of the world it makes sense. I wonder if the cartridges in the 'verse have an electronic primer in each case? Look at the size of a Grizwald. Kinda makes sense.

But that is the conventional style firearm. What about the Alliance whozits. I can see a totally caseless cartridge or even a magnetically launched projectile as totally possible.

Isn't weapon theory fun?!?!?

Gots mad skillz, loves playing with matches.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 10:46 AM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by jake7:
For some reason, I always had the impression that Vera was a 20-21st century gun...now that I think about it, that seems a silly thing to think.

Actually, I'd assume that a lot of the guns would be 19th century tech - just less ornate.

Why? Well, out on a frontier moon its no good having a fancy high-tech electronically primed gun, built to ludicrously close tolerances, stuffed with custom silicon chippery with a big sticker on saying "no user servicable parts inside - return to factory on Ariel for service".

You'd want something that could be fixed (if not built from scratch) using basic metalwork tools at "Seth's friendly gun repair and bait store" in the nearest two-horse town. The trouble with high-tech is it sits atop a huge pyramid of other technology, and you'd better hope that you brought along the tools that make the tools that make the tools...

Same with the horses - sensible thing to take to the frontier with you, the big advantages of horses over motor vehicles being (a) horses run on unrefined biofuels, (b) horses know how to make more horses and (c) if the potato crop fails, there's better eating on a horse than on a jeep.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:28 PM

FREEBROWNCOAT

No oxygen is needed for the propellant of course. BUt the outgassing mentioned might be a problem inside the cartrdge. Would it break the seal of the brass and lead enough to let the explosive pressure out? Would the bullet fall off because the brass expanded with the gas? Would the outgassing be rapid enough to spring the brass out of shape? How long does the exposre to vacuum have to be to cause sufficient damage? One shot? A full mag (and my swinging cod)?
The other thing would be using the gases to operate the bolt. Having fired a few 5.56 rounds, one bit of lazy cleaning that allows the port to plug will jam the weapon. To me, that seems the real show stopper.
But then if the cartridges are fired electronically, maybe even caseless, then the gas is no longer needed. But does outgassing destroy the powder integrity?
So, outgassing damaging the cartridge, gas operated bolt, electronic firing and cseless ammo. Wonder which is the more important factor.

"This here is my very favorite gun. I call it Vera."

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 10:32 PM

ODDBALLE8

why is this even being discussed? joss sais in the commentary that they consulted a weapons expert about it before the show... he told them they needed oxygen, but after they filmed it they found out that the "expert" was wrong... guns work without oxygen...

y'all didnt listen to the commentary? and you call yourselves browncoats? pfft! shame on you!

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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 11:28 PM

MOOSE

Quote:
Originally posted by OddballE8:
y'all didnt listen to the commentary? and you call yourselves browncoats? pfft! shame on you!

I was going to listen to the commentary to get Joss's exact quote...

then it occured to me that "Our Mrs. Reynolds" DOESN'T HAVE a commentary...

Seriously, did he bring it up on a different episode's commentary?

I do remember that he mentioned the mistake on a webvid interview from the original F*X Firefly site.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:36 AM

ODDBALLE8

hmm... youre right... so where the heck did i hear that?

well i did hear it and it was from joss' own mouth... so i know its true... but now i just got to figure out where i heard it... *sigh*

its never easy is it?

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:11 AM

MOOSE

Quote:
Originally posted by OddballE8:
hmm... youre right... so where the heck did i hear that?

I think the interview is in the media section of the Fox Firefly DVD site.

I can't be sure, since I'm on dial-up and can't watch the vids...

http://www.foxhome.com/firefly/main.html

(click on Serenity)

See? Not too hard...

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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 4:54 AM

JAKE7

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Th Odd Couple lives forever...

Madisoyisall

But of course! And that one is one of my favorite episodes...

(Madisox cracked me up to no end...

)

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MAL: Everybody's makin' a fuss.
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Wednesday, January 30, 2008 4:56 AM

JAKE7

Quote:
Originally posted by OddballE8:
why is this even being discussed? joss sais in the commentary that they consulted a weapons expert about it before the show... he told them they needed oxygen, but after they filmed it they found out that the "expert" was wrong... guns work without oxygen...

Because it's fun to discuss?

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MAL: Everybody's makin' a fuss.
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Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:06 PM

DONCOAT

My favorite fanwank on this issue (and one I came up with myself) is that it's an interlock. Vera is designed not to fire in vacuum.

Why? Well, if you're in vacuum you may also be in a microgravity situation. Start shooting under those conditions and you'll find yourself spinning backwards with your aim point far, far away from your intended target. Even if you're not in free-fall (say, on an airless moon) you're likely to put a hole in something that really shouldn't have holes in it.

Okay, it's a little weak, but it works for me.

(Oh, one other point: why did she keep firing after the suit was holed and the air leaked out? Two possibilities: the interlock only prevents the first shot but allows successive shots for a while; or, the suit took a few seconds to decompress from a bullet-sized leak so there was enough pressure to keep the interlock satisfied.)

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Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:18 PM

REDLAVA

Your theory on the secondary shots sounds accurate. Air can't escape in the blink of an eye. My guess is that the shells that Vera fired are something special that may need an oxidizer to work properly.

...or Joss just wanted to add an element of difficulty to the shot. No suit, clean line of fire through a scope, bent or otherwise, easy. Making Jayne do trigonometry in a dire situation...hard.

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Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:43 PM

INSOMNIAC

Has anyone considered the fact that Jayne just might be stupid and assumed Vera needed oxygen. When you think about it, Jayne may be somewhat of a weapons expert but I am sure he didn't think this far into it. Mal was the one who called for the suit but I think he might of done that to be on the safe side.

-------------------------------------------------
Zoe: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

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Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:47 PM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac:
Mal was the one who called for the suit but I think he might of done that to be on the safe side.

What? And ruin his very fine space suit for no apparent reason?

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Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:33 PM

TRAVELER

I have heard of ammunition made without a casing. The propelant was solid and required no brass case to contain it. Therefore there would be no oxygen. No oxygen. No Bang.

But my real concern is how did Jayne aim Vera through the spacesuit. He was not looking down the sight and he was attempting to hit a very distinct target. Not sending random rounds hoping to hit something. Also after the firing the first round the face shield was blown apart and allowed the oxygen to escape and yet Jayne continued to fire several more rounds.

If Joss had watched the series "Men into Space" that was produced in the early 60's he would have seen the episode where a convention revolver was fired on the moon. So even 40 years ago they knew a firearm would work in space. Or they guessed it would.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:10 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

The way I remember it is that Jayne said that Vera could only be fired in atmosphere and he didn't have a gun case. They decided to ad lib and use a suit in place of the case.

I wonder if Vera needs atmosphere because she's gas operated. If there's no atmosphere there's not enough pressure to activate the mechanisim which ejects the spent cartridge and pushes the new one into the chamber. Without atmo Vera would only be able of firing one shot before jamming.

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Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:10 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
I wonder if Vera needs atmosphere because she's gas operated.

Unlikely. The gas that operates the cycle in a gas operated weapon is bled off from the propellant gasses in the barrel. No external gas source required.

Though as I said there may be some new tech reason for Vera needing air to fire there really isn't one just considering how firearms are constructed in this very early part of the third millennium CE.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

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Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:16 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
I have heard of ammunition made without a casing. The propelant was solid and required no brass case to contain it. Therefore there would be no oxygen. No oxygen. No Bang.

No the oxygen is part of the propellant mixture in caseless rounds as well. What a caseless round does is use a propellant that is solid instead of the loose powder that more conventional ammunition uses thereby sidestepping the need for a cylinder of brass to hold things together.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

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Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:58 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
I have heard of ammunition made without a casing. The propelant was solid and required no brass case to contain it. Therefore there would be no oxygen. No oxygen. No Bang.

That’s extremely unlikely. Propellants can’t rely on ambient oxygen to burn. There’s just not enough in the barrel. Black powder is a good example. All the oxygen that it needs is contained in the potassium nitrate. The same is true of modern caseless propellants.

I guess we can assume Jayne’s not a weapons scientist, since he obviously got the oxygen thing wrong. Lubrication freezing and outgassing and barrel contraction due to extreme temperature variations could likely cause problem for modern firearms in space, but in the timeframe of a typical gunfight, none of these things is certain to be a showstopper.

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
But my real concern is how did Jayne aim Vera through the spacesuit. He was not looking down the sight and he was attempting to hit a very distinct target. Not sending random rounds hoping to hit something. Also after the firing the first round the face shield was blown apart and allowed the oxygen to escape and yet Jayne continued to fire several more rounds.

This is actually the more pressing concern. Most scifi space operas tend to dismiss the kinds of velocities and ranges involved in space travel. The truth is that given any thing remotely conceivable as a realistic scenario, Serenity was probably traveling so fast that it would have come upon the target and passed it before Jayne could have pulled the trigger, much less fire from the hip. That’s not to discount the scenario in which a person uses a firearm to destroy a target in space from a fast moving platform, but it would need to be aimed long before the target was visible beyond a point of light, and there would likely be a delay of minutes before the bullet impacted the target.

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
If Joss had watched the series "Men into Space" that was produced in the early 60's he would have seen the episode where a convention revolver was fired on the moon. So even 40 years ago they knew a firearm would work in space. Or they guessed it would.

Or they didn’t bother to reason it at all, and just went with what looked good.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:03 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
I wonder if Vera needs atmosphere because she's gas operated. If there's no atmosphere there's not enough pressure to activate the mechanisim which ejects the spent cartridge and pushes the new one into the chamber. Without atmo Vera would only be able of firing one shot before jamming.

That’s a possibly. Pneumatic ejection may rely on a standard pressure to operate, I’m not sure, but after the first shot, the pressure would dissipate rapidly, so at most you could only get two shots offs.

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Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:18 PM

FREEBROWNCOAT

All in all, it looked GOOD! Tech out too much sometimes but it interesting to think it out. ANd where else but with a bunch of Browncoats to think things through. Gotta love it.

"I once hit a man in the neck at five hundred yards with a bent scope. Don't that count upstairs?"

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Friday, February 1, 2008 2:48 PM

TRAVELER

Hello Finn mac Cumhal;

As you said "Most space operas tend to dismis this".

I get used to these scifi shows ignoring this fact. They seem to forget that the spaceship is traveling at extreme velocities, in shows like Star Trek it is more than the speed of light, and yet when they pass or approach another vessel it is as if they are only going fifty miles per hour.

So you are correct that Jayne would never have the time to aim at or even see the target before Serenity would have passed through the web.
But the writers must have a story and so the physical laws must bend to satisfy the adventure.

Still Firefly felt more real than other shows I've watched. The absense of sound was the first thing I noticed that differed from past space shows I've watched. So Joss and his crew made some attempts to keep it real.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, February 1, 2008 4:10 PM

RIVERFLAN

And there's always the possibility that YoSaffBridge had slowed the ship down so the guys could position the net in exactly the right position.

I'm not going to even offer a theory about Vera, bacuase I barely know how to aim one, I certainly don't know how to point! But I do think Jayne has to be a weapons specialist- he's a mercenary, and he has to know what his weapons will and will not do. So, my theory is that Vera was just a specail futuristic weapon that wasn't designed for space, and Jayne just didn't have the termonology, or he was trying to dumb down the termonology into Captian dunny talk

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Friday, February 1, 2008 5:18 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Flan, you got a good point. People don't generally don't speak in technical terms, even when they know what they're talking about.

About the ship slowing down, I thought that the web was going to bring her to a dead stop. They might have been going so fast, Jayne could have plenty of time to aim and shoot. Or at least as much as they showed.

Regardless, the scene was great.

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Friday, February 1, 2008 5:28 PM

TRAVELER

And RiverFlan you have brought up another reason why I love this show. In Star Trek the Next Generation I could have screamed at the techno babble they threw at us in almost every episode.
Kaylee says, "She ain't moving." God to here straight talk was a breath of fresh air in the dark void of space. That technobabble tends to gum up the works.

Captain Dumby talk won me over big time.

Vera was special. I suspect it was the only weapon Jayne gave a name to. The way he held it in his hands when he asked Mal to trade for YoSaffbridge showed his love for it.

So there may have been specific reasons Vera could not fire in a vacuum. This made the shot more exciting. So if anyone asks what Jayne's job is on the ship, its weapons and that laugh of his.
Oh ya, watching over Kaylee.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Monday, February 4, 2008 9:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

I have not seen an irreconcilable problem yet with Vera.
Vera may be unable to function in a vacuum, and maybe designed that way.
Once Jayne had possesion, he would have thoroughly tested it's parameters, and he may have found that in space, it only went "click" and therefore assumed it needed oxygen. Maybe it needed pressure, or atmo, but his best determination was that it needed oxygen - he is no chemist.
He may hve just been trying to translate gun guy dummy talk to Captain Dummy talk to say "Vera won't work in space" without excluding the possibility of Vera working outside the hull.

Although the weapon might not work in a vacuum, the ammo should have. If the presence of the ammo in a vacuum rendered it inherently inoperative, then merely carrying it in or through a vaccuum would also do the same - very inconvenient, and surely to have been worked around by future weaponry designers - so the rounds passing through space or other vaccuum would not disable them.

Vera was an auto-fire weapon. The explosive gases traveling down the barrel are then channeled - before the round exits the barrel - back to recharge the chamber and eject the previous remnants. Don't recall if Vera was ejecting shells in that scene, but it could be a different system of ejection. Regardless, this hot explosive gas creates it's own auto-fire continuously, and also provides heat, to dispel the cold of space.
In atmo, the pressure from the feedback gases are working against atmo pressure, but in space the differential is greater, thus the feedback gases are more effective - as long as the timing does not get excessive due to the gas pressure being excessive, Vera should fire more rapidly than in atmo.

If I've explained that well enough, all should see that the "oxygen" or atmo pressure is only needed for that first round to trigger, and after that the heat and pressure problems are moot. The first shot is wasted, because going through the face shield ruins the trajectory.

Jayne seemed to hold VEra on continuous auto-fire, without stopping.
The face shield was destroyed, so the leakage to vaccuum would have been very quick.

Once Vera cooled down, in space, Jayne may have needed to provide specail care regarding the above discussed problems, but that is all after the net was destroyed.

In Out of Gas, Jayne shoots out Marco's leg without a glance towards aim. Handling Vera from the hip is not a problem regarding aim for Jayne.

As in all westerns, quick draw experts do not aim like you are thinking. In BDM, Mal did not aim like you think to shoot the Operative. Surely Jayne can do this with Vera.

Alos, I'm assuming the view shield is a much easier part of the suit to repair than the rest of it - glue in a new visor piece, or try to mend that fabric stuff vaccuum tight.

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