Reavers and Shan-Yu – A Jersey Browncoat says “Hello.” by JerseyBrowncoat

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Reavers and Shan-Yu – A Jersey Browncoat says “Hello.”

POSTED BY: JERSEYBROWNCOAT
UPDATED: Friday, April 30, 2004 00:07
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4542
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 6:44 AM

First, the obligatory introduction: My name is Thom…

(Wazzup?! Quoi de neuf?!?!)

And I am a Browncoat from New Jersey who’s raked in a few converts, some of whom have begun to lurk here.

(Whoop, whoop! Jersey represent!)

I have been lurking here for some time myself, just for a few months now, since purchasing the DVD set on a whim day of release. Based purely on the word-of-mouth generated by the fandom, I was pumped enough to head to my local Best Buy and pick up what I was shocked to see was the last copy the evening of 9 December. I brought it home, and honestly *blushes* - it sat on my shelf for about a week before I finally put it in. I had been a fan of Buffy (favorite episode: “Restless”), having discovered that one through DVD as well (don’t watch much TV “live,” as I loathe commercials), and have what I consider a halfway-decent background in film and literature, partly from classes and partly from my job as line producer/script supervisor/all-around-production-monkey for a local independent film production company. That being said, even with all the word-of-mouth, I wasn’t prepared. The pilot blew me away!

I already knew that Joss Whedon was a brilliant writer and director (see which ep of Buffy’s my fave) who wasn’t afraid of somewhat unorthodox techniques and nods to great directors without sacrificing his personal imprints, but everything – the characterization, the dialogue, the lighting, the imaginative, stylized settings, the lack of fear of allegedly dated camera techniques helping to generate something new and vibrant, etc.

But we Browncoats know all that.

That being said, I’ve now seen each episode at least five times and frankly have become a tad obsessed with the Little-Show-That-Could-If-It-Had-Had-A-Decent-Timeslot-And-Treatment-From-The-“F”-Word. (I’ll call the “F” word “Floth,” as there are some words I’m not saying right now, and I refuse to believe a certain network shares its name with my cat.) Among the many fascinating aspects, the oft-discussed “best characters [Joss] never created,” the Reavers. I’m not sure if this has been discussed, but I tried doing a quick look-up of Shan Yu in a quickie Google search and found nothing but Mulan sites, links back to this site, and the shooting scripts over at Brownoats.com.

I’d been having some random Firefly thoughts in the shower, and something from “War Stories” hit me, (Trust me, this gets back to Reavers) namely the oft-referenced-in-the-episode Shan Yu quotation. Having a really hard time finding any info on the historical Shan Yu, assuming there is one (again, I’ve got some research to do – Library Excuse Time!) what little I’ve found doesn’t suggest that he was a dictator as Simon said, which begs a further question: Is this another fictional Shan Yu? I can’t personally be certain until I’ve done more research, but until then…

The words in question, used in the episode, read, “Live with a man forty years, share his house, his meals, speak on every subject. Then tie him up and hold him over the volcano's edge. And on that day you will finally meet the man.” In the episode, Nisska lives by that philosophy and implements it on Mal, who in turn gets very, very bloody and p/o-ed. The episode makes a point that the philosophy, as implemented on Mal, makes him go savage for a bit. Now, admittedly, this is a bit of a stretch. It makes sense that a tortured man would go up against his tormentor so willingly, but it strikes an eerie chord IF that quote is fictional.

Could the Reavers be this future dictator’s legacy?

The most specific descriptions we get of them are in “Serenity” and “Bushwhacked,” both times of which we’re given mainly the vague notion that they’re “men gone savage on the edge of space,” and if you survive having witnessed what they do, you do your best to turn into one. So was there some sort of first generation Reavers that were used as this man’s war machine ages ago, evolving/devolving into its own society generation after generation?

Just something to think about. I don’t really want to elaborate on the theory until I find out if the quotation can, in fact, be attributed to the historical Shan Yu, because if it can, well…the theory kinda falls apart.

UPDATE: I’ve done a little more research, mostly by googling portions of the quote and found this link – http://infinitenow.blogspot.com/2004_01_01_infinitenow_archive.html about two-thirds of the way down the page. Of course, this is a blog, and with all the television references, particularly the Buffy quote, the person probably got it from Firefly and got Shan Yu’s being a Mongol warlord from Mulan or a similar search. That and there are no specifics on Shan Yu on the page. I found another message board with the quote, but the message was dated 9 April of this year, but again, no specific reference to it being from any particular one of Shan Yu's works. Nothing dated from before “War Stories” aired. Looks like a library trip!

Any Shan Yu scholars out there?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 6:56 AM

SHINY

Welcome, JerseyBrowncoat! Great first post! If you haven't already, I recommend posting it verbatim as an amazon.com review (at last count, we're over 850 reviews and we're trying to get over 1000!). Also, now that you've finished watching the series, you have been promoted to BFC (Browncoat first class) -- to make it up the ranks of browncoat-dom, you need to recruit more browncoats to drive DVD sales even higher, make the movie a box office success, and help bring our beloved show back as a weekly TV (or cable) series!

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 6:58 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Welcome to the board JerseyBrowncoat! Pleased to have you here in our little part of the 'verse. Nice to see you come out of lurk mode. We seem to have more than a few lurkers coming out of the shadows to post and introduce themselves. Hope to see you posting regularly w/ us.

As to your theory of a connection between Shan Yu and the Reavers, there just doesn't seem to be any logical lines to draw that conclusion. It is possible I suppose, just not very probable.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 8:17 AM

JERSEYBROWNCOAT

Many thanks for the warm welcome, and I thought I'd mention first to Shiny that I have indeed made at least five converts through a series of viewings/parties I've held for friends, with several more on the way. I always try to do my part to spread the words of the 'verse, particularly to my fellow indie film workers and the like, and they've been very receptive so far. This show truly deserves to be seen.

There was an Australian article linked from the Watchers' Council a few months back that basically said that modern arc television, particularly that of Joss Whedon, brings us the closest equivalent to modern-day Shakespeare. I tend to agree, and I hold up Firefly as the best of this man's work to date.

With that in mind...

Quote:

BrownCoat1 wrote:

As to your theory of a connection between Shan Yu and the Reavers, there just doesn't seem to be any logical lines to draw that conclusion.

The connection I was trying to make to the Reavers, if memory serves, is from "Bushwhacked," namely Book's remark that the Reavers are still men in the long run. I seemed to remember lots of references of stripping away, and I'd made some sort of relation on the precise actions that Zoe described in "Serenity." But I've been doing some re-reading of the "Bushwhacked" script. I'd forgotten about the basketball scene at the beginning of the episode, and I can't remember if Inara's response made it into the final cut, but here:

SIMON
I can't really tell... they don't seem to be playing
by any civilized rules that I know.

INARA
Well, this far out, you kind of make your own.

the metaphor in how this relates to Reavers is obvious. They've done this to themselves over generations of abandoning their former civilized nature and adopting a different, more "savage" one. You're probably right, Browncoat1, but it was a fun theory that floated around in my head while it lasted.

Still, I have to say again...props to the writers on the absolute meticulous crafting of this show. Anything that can be analyzed as deeply as Firefly after only half a season...well, it boggles the mind.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 10:24 AM

BIBSY

Quote:
Originally posted by JerseyBrowncoat:
And I am a Browncoat from New Jersey who’s raked in a few converts, some of whom have begun to lurk here.

(Whoop, whoop! Jersey represent!)

A fellow Jersey Browncoat! Woo hoo! But the real question remains--North or South Jersey? Or somewhere between?

Quote:
I’m not sure if this has been discussed, but I tried doing a quick look-up of Shan Yu in a quickie Google search and found nothing but Mulan sites, links back to this site, and the shooting scripts over at Brownoats.com.

There was a thread about this back in February that you might want to check out:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=3834

I never would have thought of a connection between Shan Yu and the Reavers. Interesting. Just to clarify, is your theory that the Reavers are people who possibly went savage because, as Shan Yu or Nisska would have put it, someone tied them up and held them over the volcano's edge in order to meet the real them?

Though I personally don't think there was an intended connection between Shan Yu and the Reavers in the Firefly verse, it's an interesting way to look at Reavers. A scary look too. If Reavers are humans who have been stripped of their civility to the point where we have met "the real them", then that suggests that what we all really are as humans is something brutal, bloody and savage.

"Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?"

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:38 AM

JERSEYBROWNCOAT

Quote:

Bibsy wrote:
A fellow Jersey Browncoat! Woo hoo! But the real question remains--North or South Jersey? Or somewhere between?

Pleased to make your acquaintanceship.

I think of it as a specific between-land that I've dubbed "West Jersey," namely that odd strip that runs up from Princeton to Somerville (I'm nearest the latter) that doesn't fit in the traditional descriptions of either area, and isn't shore-related, and thus gets shunned by the self-dubbed "Central Jersey." A close friend likes to call it the "Somerset-Hunterdon Bubble," and I'm inclined to agree, though I take pride in Somerville, mostly for Main Street and the overall feel of the town. It somehow escapes being just another local Yuppietown.

Many thanks for the link to the Shan Yu info. And thanks to SuperFly for beating me to the research! So since Shan Yu was simply a title according to this info, he could very well have been a future dictator in the Firefly-verse.

And to clarify, my personal belief is that assuming this whacked-out theory would be the case, what Shan Yu would have ultimately stripped away is the core that would make someone human, leaving only the animal homo sapien. Joss has a fascination with the "primal" in all his works. The most prominent example elsewhere I can think of is the First Slayer as used in "Restless." I would never think of Reavers as the "real anyone." I mean, my world view might be dark, but not that dark.

If nothing else, Reavers have to actively do things to themselves to strip away their humanity - desecrating their own flesh by splitting the tongue down the middle seems the most distressing, as for many of us, it's language that we use to define ourselves as human. (I keep remembering how disturbed I was when I saw "Titus" for the first time.)

Anyway, far-fetched notion on my part on there being a connection, but it's a fun one to theorize and speculate over, at least for me.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:32 PM

HIGHIRON02

There is no record of a Chinese or Mongol dictator named Shan Yu. From this we can assume that he is a dictator sometime in the future. History tells us that all societies and governments ultimately fail (even Rome fell). From this we can assume that the western society (i.e. United States) will also someday fall. Democracic Governments are a relatively new innovation and have been called an "Experiment in Democracy."

We can know that the United States and China greatly influence the future society in the form of the Sino-Anglo Alliance. For this occur, there would have to be tremendous political upheaval for such an alliance to occur. As societies fail, new governments rise up ususlly in the form of warlords and dictators. The current example would be Afganistan and the Baltic States.

I would surmise that Shan Yu would be such a warlord. We do know that he was described as a "psychotic dictator," by Simon and Book said that he wrote volumes on torture and suffering. He would have gained this experiance by brutally overtaking various territories and subjegating all of it's people.

Why wouldn't the US or China intervene? Interstellar spaceflight permitted travel and allowed for terriforming of new planets. By observing the earth, the US and China knew that the other contries (China and US) weren't worth fighting over due to depleting resourses and sought to find new colonies to provide resourses and perhaps ultimately to move to them.

Since the governments efforts were toward space travel and terraforming, they did not have the resourses to intervene in domestic issues, thus allowing Shan Yu to become the third rival superpower and begun to launch attacks that severly crippled both superpowers. Thus the conditions were right for what major political upheaval for the US and China to form an alliance.

Shan Yu being defeated took many of his followers in transport ships. His followers being the viscous cutthroads and villians that kept Shan Yu in power, headed off into deep space, never to be seen again. Ultimately the war for earth was won only to have the earth die in the process. War having raged for 40 years, further depleted resourses, poisoned streams and fields. Runnaway greenhouse effect began to raise the temperature of the air and all things began to die off beginning at the equator and moved toward the poles. The Sino-Anglo Alliance used the remaining resourses to move the government officials, persons of wealth and status to what would become the Core Planets. The would abandon the remaining population of earth to suffication and death. Only 1% of the living population ever left planet earth.

In this secenario, I would suggest that the reavers are descendants of Shan Yu, having gone into the black and lost their remaining humanity. Having only known brutality and torture, it is what they become. They are so elusive, the people of the Core Planets do not acknowlege their existance instead tell of them as stories much like we use Mother Goose today. For the people on the rim, they are much more real although no one has ever seen them. They leave nothing alive. Village here one day and gone the next.

There aren't to many pieces to connect this story together and a lot of open air between them.

We got you partially surrounded.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:59 PM

KUGELBLITZ

Shan Yu came along after the diaspora (you would need a fantastic amount of resources to independently colonize another world BEFORE the major powers did). He (Or she) could have been a local planetary leader who managed to get quite a reputation after he was either put down by someone more ruthless than he, or he died a peaceful death and was worshipped by his followers.

Efficient systems tend to replace less efficient ones. In the hierarchy of Shany Yu's creation, there could very well be superior people who cleave very closely to what tenets we know about hisn philosophy and some we don't know that hypothetically involve ritual torture, scarification and some abstruse forms of bonding and warfighting.

Given his absence or fall, any new regime or chnage could have either alienated these select few individuals (which, if this was a planet could still be a HUGE number of people and their resources-like tally up all the special forces soldiers in all of the world) and thereby caused them to leave for blacker pastures. OR their cult/religion could have become accelerated enough to really cause a problem for other planets, which would involve a local conflict. There are plenty of fine examples of religious fundamentalism creating frictions enough to generate a war.

In either case my theory means that the Reavers are scattered, or there would be this big NO GO place on all of the nav charts where this culture was existing.

Here Be Reavers.

"We are exporting democracy because we have all of this unused democracy lying around at home. Why not make some money doing it?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 27, 2004 5:20 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Welcome and wow. Nice 1st post. In the spirit of Capt'n Tightpants - you're my kind of an obsessed fan. :)

To the point, in regards to Reavers, I would say there's little if any connection w/ Shan Yu. Per Bushwacked, we're told that Reavers were just men, but driven to madness from being on the outter rim of the galaxy. ( Why that wouldn't instill wonder and humility but instead turning men into blood thristy killers, is kinda confounding. )
Remember Book tries to offer up the idea that, no matter what we think of Reavers, they're still men. Mal replies that Reavers might take exception to that philosophy, if they had a philosophy. Now, while we did see the lone 'survivor' in Bushwacked mutter something about - 'open up, see whats inside' could be a vague reference to the teachings of Shan Yu ( meet the REAL man ), I doubt Shan Yu would make such references to men as being cattle. His "teachings" display a far more intricate and devious intent behind what our pals the Reavers are all about.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 4:28 AM

CYBERSNARK

Also welcome.

It's possible that Shan Yu's philosophy might've degenerated along with the Reavers themselves. Certainly, there'd appear to be some sort of connection between the two, and where Joss is involved, I no longer believe in coincidence.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 11:04 AM

SOPRANOSBROWNCOAT

Hey all, first time posting on this board. I'm one of Jersey Browncoat's converts, also hailing from our weird state, and just thought I'd throw my two cents in on the whole Reavers thing. I was reading one of Garth Ennis' "War Stories" comics the other night from about a year or two ago. It was titled "The Reivers" (note the spelling.) The story focused on a British platoon who made guerilla-style attacks against the German Afrika Korps; the title came from the main character, who was of Scottish descent, mentions a Scottish tribe known as the Reivers, who pillaged the English-Scottish border for centuries until England and Scotland became one and the border no longer existed. According to the comic, most of the Reivers settled down, but some went to the Americas and may have participated in the slaughter of American Indians. (I don't know if any of this is historically accurate, I'm just going by what the issue said.) If Joss Whedon came across this in his research, perhaps "Firefly's" Reavers are meant to be the last remnant of an ancient conflict that no longer exists, and are a problem for everyone, everywhere, but without a specific homebase. So they may very well be what's left of Shan Yu's army.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 11:17 AM

LIZ

try searching "Xian Yu"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 9:53 PM

MANTHEYCALLJAYNE

Hi all, first time/long time.
From the other thread posted on this forum about Shan Yu, it seems that "shan yu" is a Hunnic title for chieftains, transliterated into Chinese. There appears to be outside support for this, including even the mythical Secret History of the Mongols, according to the following link:

http://dragonfly.cox.miami.edu/Tian/hun.html

Anyway, it seems highly unlikely that Shan Yu is an actual historical figure, mainly because there are no volcanoes in China. There may be a few in Japan (Mt. Fuji being a dormant example), but Shan Yu is a decidedly un-Japanese name. My guess is the writers wanted to make up some "ancient Chinese text" about torture, but were unable to find any that suited their purpose, so they just made it up. I doubt much historical research went into this show.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:26 AM

LIZ

so, i would first like to apologize for my abrupt comment yesterday -- i was on my way out the door but had found some info on the "real" Shan Yu when i google searched "Xian Yu." "Chan Yu" is good too. i found a couple things, but nothing that connects the Xian Yu and torture:
http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/e-rekihaku/119/

and i found this quote "...202 BC, right before the feudal overlord Xian Yu commits suicide while bidding farewell to his concubine, surrounded by his soldiers gauntly singing their anthem." on this website: http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?5/45666
but it's a passing reference and i haven't found any other info.

for more info on historical reivers, i found these sites helpful:
http://www.nwlink.com/~scotlass/border.htm

http://www.rootsweb.com/~sctbew/history/reiver.htm

http://www.keystothepast.info/durhamcc/K2P.nsf/K2PGlossary?readform&GL
OSSARY=Reivers

... as you can see i much prefer presenting primary sources rather than reading and spitting out my chewed up versions.

I kinda like the idea, cinematically, of a society of Reavers... a group of people who have read the "ancient teachings of Shan Yu" and have chosen to create a society that bases itself in torture and finding the true self.
then again i could just be sick and twisted. this is entirely possible.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:02 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

I don't think reavers have much interest in "meeting the man" i think they are just interested in MEATing the man.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Here's to Jayne, the box dropping man-ape-gone-wrong-thing"
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:48 PM

WYDRAZ

Can't say as I understand those that have posted that there is little or no connection between Xian Yu and the Reavers. Violence and Torture. Seems connection enough for me.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 29, 2004 6:13 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Good point Wydraz, but there's not much information to say that the connection goes beyond the violence and torture either. It's like asking if there is a conenction to Sun Tzu (the Art of War) and Deacon from Waterworld?

I doubt Joss intended the two to be related, but who knows maybe one day we'll get to ask him.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 30, 2004 12:07 AM

FLAMETREE

Hello,

This is a very interesting discussion.

For whats its worth I think J Weardon is a fan of Dr Who.

Remember the story "Talons of Weng Chiang". This had a mythical general/ dictator with a chinese name whatever. He was notorious for his cruetly. I think Joss remember this and just slipped in a similar idea when he wanted interesting dialogue for the relevant episode.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE