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Originally posted by Gilead:
So, we've established a couple of things:

1) Wash and Book are dead.
2) Any plot-device perceived as fan-born is a copyright risk, and thus also... dead.

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Originally posted by out2theblack:
2) Fallacious conclusion ! Anything fan-born is no copyright risk at all , because the fans do not hold the copyrights...The copyrights belong to the respective copyright holders , which would be Universal in the case of the BDM , and the F-network in the case of the Firefly series...And , of course , contractually , Joss Whedon , as the creator of the characters and situations...

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Anything 'fan-born' is derivative ... And , because it doesn't originate with the creator or a copyright holder , is naturally non-canonical...

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Originally posted by micjwelch:
Well, I had my own theory, but apparently Joss has specifically said that Book was not an Operative. He may have been a "duplicate" though.

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Originally posted by Gilead:


Perhaps we have a semantics issue here. But an interesting topic nonetheless. Of course the actual copyrights/rights reside with Joss (and/or various big wigs). What I meant is that, from what I've come to understand, if a fan comes up with an idea, concept, or plot device related to series and documents it (eg. with a posting), and a similar idea is later used in a similar context in the series in question... it can make lawyer-types get all queasy-like. There is at least an perception of burden of proving that the idea was not taken from the fan without just compensation...

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Originally posted by Gilead:
Perhaps we have a semantics issue here. But an interesting topic nonetheless. Of course the What I meant is that, from what I've come to understand, if a fan comes up with an idea, concept, or plot device related to series and documents it (eg. with a posting), and a similar idea is later used in a similar context in the series in question...

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Originally posted by Gilead:


1) I'm not really talking about fans making legal claims. I'm talking about writers/creators avoiding us and our ideas for appearance's sake. Bummer (or neat, I guess) about the person who actually had their idea appear on screen unexpectedly. Was that an idea/fanfic that you'd posted?

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Originally posted by micjwelch:
Here's what bugs me. We have so many people that say this ain't Buffy, and we can't just go resurrecting people. Uh, we already have. Two examples:

"You died Mr. Reynolds."

and

"What'd y'all order a dead guy for?"

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Originally posted by BrownCoat2007:
Wait, wait, wait... so your saying that Wash and Book dieing ISN'T just some terrible, reacurring nightmare that I'm having??


Awww, hell....

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Originally posted by tyrantkiller:
True, but Tracey was no more dead then Simon and River in "Ariel" and Mal dieing under torture is like someone dieing on the operating table and being revived via defibrillator. i haven't watched much Buffy, but i understand that's a different kinda resurrection. you know, a kind that mite bring back a guy who a reaver spike shoved through their chest.

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Originally posted by micjwelch:
Here's what bugs me. We have so many people that say this ain't Buffy, and we can't just go resurrecting people. Uh, we already have. Two examples:

"You died Mr. Reynolds."

and

"What'd y'all order a dead guy for?"




"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

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Originally posted by pennausamike:


In my mind, until a film or series continuation says different, the crew put Wash in River's cryo-box to take him home for burial. Along the way, they are informed by Simon that the same medical tech that produced Tracy's hopped up internal organs ("million credit meat" in Tracy's words) are accessible at Government research facilities. Using a bit of improvisation and Book's ident card, they sneak Wash in place of a politico who bumped a deserving recipient (ala PA's governor Casey who bumped everybody down the list for his transplant). Alliance bashing, witty dialog and some gunplay ensues. The Firefly 'verse returns to normal.

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Originally posted by annuette:

I'd be intrigued to see how that could be done in a non-AU verse setting.

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Originally posted by Agatsu:

1) We SEE the burial. I know you're gonna say all we see is a memorial, but it would make no sense whatsoever to do a memorial service and THEN fly somewhere to actually bury Wash.

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2) You can put as many healthy organs into a dead body as you want, it's still gonna be a dead body

3) A telephone pole through the chest and spine is really, really deadly, and I mean instantaneously (he's been sitting there with that thing in chest for at least half an hour, too).

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I'm sorry that you personally don't like things like that to happen in entertainment, but that doesn't really mean anything.

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That being said, I agree that Wash will be sadly missed and FF will never be the same without him.
Then again, it might never "be" again, so until there's new material and we know for sure, don't let me piss on your parade.

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Btw, I always wondered why they cut the fireworks at the end of the burial scene, which would have made for a nice transition to the welding that starts the repair montage that follows.

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Only Joss can piss on my parade.
I keep hoping he doesn't.
I'll reassess my fandom if he does.

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Originally posted by Gilead:

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Originally posted by annuette:

I'd be intrigued to see how that could be done in a non-AU verse setting.

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Joss alludes to the idea in Those Left Behind.

Gilead

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Mal: Is it bad that what she said made perfect sense to me?

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Originally posted by pennausamike:

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Originally posted by Agatsu:

1) We SEE the burial. I know you're gonna say all we see is a memorial, but it would make no sense whatsoever to do a memorial service and THEN fly somewhere to actually bury Wash.

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We don't SEE the burial, ONLY the memorial service.
Why would they bury Wash on some strange rock?
I think they'd fly him home or to a site of Zoe's and Wash's choosing.

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I see Simon injecting Wash with the same chemical as used on himself, River and Tracy.
Something that mimics death could also logically stave off necrosis.

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And a pole in the chest isn't as mortal as a bullet in the brainpan.
We saw Mal's pistol drop a horse.
That same bullet, introduced into a human skull, would penetrate and the hydrostatic shock would turn everything inside Dobson's skull to jelly.
But for CONVENIENCE sake, Joss wrote him back to life for "Those Left Behind".

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If Joss can justify something as FRIVOLOUS as resurrecting Dobson, he should have more compelling reasons to resurrect Wash.

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Yes it does. Entertainment is business combined with art.
If a piece of entertainment turns me off, I won't support it. If enough people share my opinion, it really starts to mean something.

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Fortunately for "keep Wash dead" supporters, there seem to be lots of folks who like to see noble deeds rewarded with tragedy.
Jurrasic Park II, The Mist, 3:10 To Yuma, Gone,Baby,Gone; and many more; see noble characters commit noble deeds, only to be handed ignominious deaths or soul-crushing twists.
Humanity and life is filled with un-fairness.
I don't support it in the name of entertainment.

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Only Joss can piss on my parade.
I keep hoping he doesn't.
I'll reassess my fandom if he does.

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Btw, I always wondered why they cut the fireworks at the end of the burial scene, which would have made for a nice transition to the welding that starts the repair montage that follows.

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Because test audiences thought it was corny...

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....I don't mean this to say that I'll pout, take my toys, and go home.
I mean this like how many view the Terminator Series, including the creators of the new Sarah Conner Chronicles.
Which is to say, like T3 never happened.
T3 undercut the whole point of Cameron's Terminator movies, and was something of a character and narrative detour as well.

The Sarah Conner Chronicles creators chose to advance the story from T2 and ignore T3.

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Much like the seamstress who sewed the Browncoat patch on upside down, just cuz' it's canon doesn't make it so...

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I see Simon injecting Wash with the same chemical as used on himself, River and Tracy.
Something that mimics death could also logically stave off necrosis.



Bodies have to be alive to be put into stasis.
With your logic, you could bring poisoned people back from the dead if you inject them the antidote an hour after they died.

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SNIP I really ruttin' love Wash, but I like consistency more. SNIP

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It's not fair, but only bad things happening make a good story in the first place. There is no really good story without really bad things happening.
It's entertainment with unhappy endings that really STICKS as opposed to Hollywood's apparent rule that you can't let movies end on a downer.
The conditions the BDHs have to live in and are treated by almost everyone are not fair, the Independents losing the war isn't fair, what has been done to River wasn't fair, good people dying isn't fair, but it is what makes the story.

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I don't think you'd have prefered a 50's-sitcom-style Firefly where the BDHs live wealthy, happy lifes on a beautiful private moon in an independent and death-less 'Verse.

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Josh: No one said Wash's wounds were fatal.
Eli: I'm going to bet his burial was.

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Originally posted by annuette:

Does he? I haven't read the comics.

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Uplifting franchises create active and energetic fan-bases that costume and raise money for charities and throw conventions; people don't wish to thrust themselves into fictional worlds that mimic the harshness of real-life.

If Serenity's crew just-died-one-tough-death-after-another, there would not be a fan Browncoat movement. No happy people thrilling to the next adventure, throwing Shindigs to celebrate the BDH's latest great escape.

People might say, "Wow, that story really hits ya where you live", but they would then move on to the next movie/TV series/book/whatever.

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Originally posted by annuette:
*grins* I'll have to look out for the hints then. I just brought the first comic at the con this weekend but I'm unsure where to get the others so may have to shop around :)

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Anything 'fan-born' is derivative , and not able to claim copyright as a result...And , because it doesn't originate with the creator or a copyright holder , is naturally non-canonical...

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Originally posted by futchfactor:

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Anything 'fan-born' is derivative , and not able to claim copyright as a result...And , because it doesn't originate with the creator or a copyright holder , is naturally non-canonical...

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...fan-made works may only copyright the portion of original material and original ideas contained in the derivation. the original copyright owner retains ownership on the universe, characters, names etc. and may prevent their use or request royalty.

for a fan to retain 100% intellectual copyright, the original design must be transformed such that it can no longer be recognised as the original.

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