Imponderables: Oh Mama! by nvghostrider

Hey it's ok HK was asking a legitimate question..and I'd like to answer it. First I'd like to say there are no guarantees in this life. Nothing is for certain. Yes lots of marriages end in divorce ( including my first one) and lots don't. May parents have been married for over 30 years and are still happy.
I think personally that marriage is a promise you do your best to keep and that making that promise in front of family and friends can help strengthen that promise. Also I like the idea of the legal tie. It means something that you are willing to make a committment strong enough to be bound by law. But why am I doing this? I love NV with all my heart and am so truly happy that I want to be a part of his family in every sense. I want him to be a part of mine and I want us to be a family together ( yes with kids) and I honestly believe that our marriage will last forever ( which I didn't believe with my first marriage...long story I don't think you want to hear) So thanks to you all for your good wishes ( and those who are new please understand that HK was in no way not being supportive of me... I know full well that if it makes me happy she's for it 100% ...she just has different views on things and that's what makes her wonderful) and same goes for the other questioners... HUGS

____________________________________________

Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Sunday, August 3, 2008 8:59 AM

It seems I might have been a bit over-defensive on MsBs behalf. I was just thinking about how hurt I would have been about the negative tone of some of the posts. Luckily MsB is less thin skinned and more self confident than me and it seems her happiness cannot be dimmed!

I'm glad, and withdraw what might have been perceived as a lecture. It was not intended to be, my higher intellect and enjoyment of debate shuts down when I think someone is about to get upset (wrongly in this case I think!)

I have a question, on related grounds, which I shall try to express in a non-confrontational way. If someone were to happily announce that they were pregnant with a third child, is there ever a good time to debate with that person the problems of overpopulation and dwindling long term resources (subjects very close to my heart)?

___________________

Hissssssssss!

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Sunday, August 3, 2008 11:23 AM

r u saying that bringing a child in this world could coldly be considered an act of cruelty? XD *sry had to sneak in that quote* but srsly..

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Sunday, August 3, 2008 1:25 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Working backwards...

Quote:
If someone were to happily announce that they were pregnant with a third child, is there ever a good time to debate with that person the problems of overpopulation and dwindling long term resources?

I don't think I'm going to answer that one non-confrontationally, so my apologies in advance. I've heard a lot of this recently, and it's finally really really getting to me.

No, there is never a good time to bring up a heated topic on which you so obviously have conflicting views with this other person. Not during the pregnancy, not after, not ever. Having children is a right, not a privilege, and as long as this person isn't abusing her children, you have no right to tell her she shouldn't have more children. If she is able to care for, feed, clothe, and house her children without depending on government subsidies, then in my not so humble opinion it's wrong for you to even consider telling her she shouldn't have children.

I'm the oldest of six children. Except for the youngest who just turned 15, all of my siblings work, and none of us have ever been on welfare. We're all college educated. Only one of my brothers has children as yet, and he provides for his family. My four youngest siblings are interesting, intelligent, fantastic people with bright futures ahead of them, and I count them each among my best friends. What if someone had told my parents that having their third, fourth, fifth, and sixth child was "irresponsible"?

Furthermore, my father is a third child and my mother is a fifth child. My family literally would not exist if everyone thought like you, and bought into the myth of overpopulation ( http://www.euthanasia.com/popmyth.html ).

That said, you have a right to your beliefs and opinions, and I won't try to dissuade you beyond the above. But your friend also has a right to her opinions and choices. If she is happy about having another child, why can't you just be happy for her, rather than trying to cram your dogma down her throat??

Quote:
ask a married couple :-P

I've lost count, but I think at five and a half years happily married, I may be the best representative of married people in the thread these days.

First off, remember that marriage does not equal a wedding. A wedding is a party you can have if you want. A marriage is a covenant you enter into with one other person, that, because our country is a bit screwed up these days, is recognized by our government as different from all other relationships. Marriage doesn't have to change the nature of the relationship -- sometimes it just spells out in legal terms what already existed.

For me, I got married because I had found the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. We started dating in November 01, and in May 02 I informed him that whenever he wanted to get married I would be interested in it, but I wasn't going to wait for a party or a piece of paper to start actually spending the rest of my life with him. We moved in together in July 02, and in early September 02 he proposed. We got married in January 03, and have been attached at the hip every day since. It didn't change our relationship, and we still live like two teenagers with their parents out of town, just with wedding rings and the same last name now. In over six years since I informed him I was interested, I have never once questioned that decision.

But again, this comes right back to my point above -- if your friend happily announces that she is getting married, when is the right time to tell her all the reasons that marriage is a mistake under any circumstances? In one word: never. Keep your opinions to yourself, and respect others' rights to have conflicting opinions.

Sigh.

I have to say I don't like the direction the Imponderables is headed in -- HK having to defend herself, personal choices about marriage and family derided, even the most tame sex talk shut down. Call me when you guys get back to discussing fun stuff, like the good old days. Until then count me out.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Monday, August 4, 2008 1:02 AM

I'm not actually sure where to start responding to this post. I meant to ask a contraversial question but not to stir up so much anger.

ok, first I should make it clear that this was a hypothetical situation. I am a big fan of analogies and so rather than going on and on about how people shouldn't be expressing negative opinions about marriage at this time (something I don't really have strong feelings on and so can't empathise with HK and Aiko's P.O.V.) I tried to relate it to a hypothetical situation I considered similar in which I do have strong views.

This was for two reasons. One, so that we could have a debate without me worrying about upsetting MsB (I know, I'm a worrier, even though she said she wasn't upset!). Two, I could get a feel for what people feel is appropriate to discuss in sensitive situations without any one person being directly involved, thereby avoiding hurt feelings. This has obviously backfired and failed utterly.

So, after trying to clarify my motivations, can I now address some of the content of your post?

You started by saying that you didn't think you were going to answer that one non-confrontationally. This is a pity as you seem to have gotten so upset that you have completely misunderstood my intentions and what I actually said. The phrase:

Quote:
If she is happy about having another child, why can't you just be happy for her, rather than trying to cram your dogma down her throat??

is offensive to me. At no point did I suggest that this is what I would do in this situation. In fact I have been in this situation and kept my views to myself and said all the things she wished to hear. That was kind of my point in bringing it up. However, I really objet to the phrase:

Quote:
in my not so humble opinion it's wrong for you to even consider telling her she shouldn't have children.

Leaving aside my thoughts on the phrase 'in my not so humble opinion' (the verbal equivalent of a smug pat on the head), this sounds awfully like you are trying to control what I think about. Again, this was a hypothetical situation but also one I was in a while ago. At that time I did indeed consider what to say. I weighed up my thoughts and beliefs and decided that I still felt strongly that each person has a responsibility to think hard about the consequenses of adding a life and that this person, in her particular circumstances, was being irresponsible. I also weighed up what would be gained from telling her this and, as it was already a fait accompli all I would have achieved would be to hurt her feelings. So I kept my mouth shut and congratulated her.

I appreciate your inclusion of another source to back up your beliefs in this matter, however I have read similar reports before and their counter research and have not found them convincing. To me this article can be summed up as saying that there is enough food to feed everyone in the world (technically true but are you denying that millions are going hungry or starving to death? It is possible that if the developed nations had less mouths to feed they might spend more attention of redistribution of the wealth), and that 'overpopulation' probably doesn't contribute much to the major ills of the planet (key words to me being 'probably' and 'much'). I'm afraid that, despite your anger at my position I will continue to believe that there is no need for large families in our society and many good reasons against them. I'm sorry if that offends you but, sadly, I doubt my opinions will have much of an effect on your life, or anyone else's really, except my own if ever I decide to procreate!

Finally, I confess to being confused at your final burst of anger/ disappointment at the imponderables thread.

Quote:
HK having to defend herself, personal choices about marriage and family derided, even the most tame sex talk shut down.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? I started by saying that I thought people should keep their opinions to themselves to spare MsBs feelings (something she then said she didn't want to I climbed down off my soap box - well, kinda! I tried at least. That soap box is just so darn inviting!). I then tried to change the subject slightly inviting other people to express their views on a different topic and you tried to shut down my views.
I also haven't senn sex talk shut down. Admittedly I don't read this thread every day but I am on far more often than I post and this is the first time in ages that I've seen anyone told to shut up (in whatever form that takes). I'm all for the sex talk! Bring on the sex talk!

After all that was why Tristan started the imponderables threads, to discuss the differences between men and women in all their imponderable glory!

Hope I have vented in an understandable and polite way. I'd hate to start a hair pulling match! (I'd win by the way, I was a scrapper as a teenager!)

___________________

Hissssssssss!

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Monday, August 4, 2008 6:09 AM

Deep breaths everyone. I think these areas are just touchy subjects because they're things people feel strongly about.

CK, you know I love ya and all but I think you're not seeing things clearly here. You're biting Emma's head off just like others bit HK's head off. If you want people to be able to ask any question then you can't turn around and go off on someone else for asking a question. I'm sure you just need some time to calm down. I can understand getting a bit fired up at the suggestion that you and your family shouldn't even exist.

Really I think everyone's just stuck in a whole bunch of misunderstandings. The imponderables tends to be an open forum where we all just say what's on our minds. We're not being accusatory. We're just curious about other people's opinions. So, I can see where it might seem like some of us were questioning MsB & NVG's decisions. I don't think anybody was doing that though. We're all saying congrats and then we're asking questions we have about marriage and weddings and what not.

At the same time I know the people biting heads off are just trying to defend MsB cause they care about her feelings.

So, everybody just have a group hug (except for those of us who thinking hugging all the darn time is for crazy people). Everybody's happy for MsB & NVG and everybody is free to ask whatever they want here. Agreed?

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Monday, August 4, 2008 6:45 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER

Good morning.

I get the reasons against marriage. My mother has been married no less than three times neither of which happened until after I was born. I've seen the bickering and the drinking and even a murder/suicide befall my family thanks to the whole not wanting to be married anymore thing and I am the last person to be a proponent for such a useless and expensive ritual. Keeping in mind I've really been against marriage my whole life and simply wanted to be a free agent roaming the countryside as I pleased. Funny, I couldn't even get that right. I was even told by an ex that I could never settle and would be doomed to wander as I had for so many years already.

As nervous and burdensome this whole thing feels, it feels a hell of a lot better than callous regard for myself and others. It feels like I actually have a home and a purpose. I have been a bastard my whole life. This is one thing I could never wish upon my worst enemy let alone my child.

Yes, I said my child. It has not happened yet, but it will. Despite my prejudices toward marriage, having children and raising them to be healthy and happy is more important than my own petty discomforts.

This is all I can say for marriage. It is not the institution, it is the people that make it what it is. Is it the ideals behind marriage that bind it to certain doom? Probably not. I cannot take offense to those of you who speak your mind about your attitudes toward marriage because you are all right and I love you all for it.

It is those directly opposed to our being married that will taste the heel of my boot and will hear me laugh as I swollow their soul.

Love for all of you and prayers for "them".

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Being an artist means not having to avert one's eyes.
-Akira Kurosawa

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Monday, August 4, 2008 8:09 AM

WOW ok you all need to calm down... No grumpies ok.

Open debate is good, just try to keep the judgement out of your thoughts . Be as confident in your own beliefs as you want just realize that everyone else might be right too.. NOW you will all be nice or I'm going to hug the stuffin out of you:)

HUGS to you all

NV

____________________________________________

Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Monday, August 4, 2008 8:48 AM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Oh come on, if the question had been, “If someone were to happily announce that he was gay and was going to marry his life-partner, is there ever a good time to tell that person that he’s going to hell for being gay?” you all would have told that person how offensive it is to confront someone like that. But as soon as it’s anti-establishment and anti-traditional-families, it’s somehow ok to spout hate speech??

My point was simply this: we each need to realize when our dearly-held views are controversial and considered offensive by others, and then keep those views to ourselves. My intention was not to shut down discussion, but rather to point out that some people would find that point of view very offensive. The idea behind the Imponderables was that we could discuss things here we couldn’t discuss in the outside world, and my point was that the view expressed regarding children is very offensive to some in the outside world.

Unfortunately I see this thread going the way of many liberal communities online: anyone who holds a dissenting view about liberal topics is flamed and shunned, but holding dissenting views on traditionally conservative topics is encouraged and praised. I typically vote very liberal, but obviously I come from a traditional-family background, with large, religious families going back many generations. So I get sick of people putting forth offensive views on religion and large families and other traditionally conservative topics with impunity.

Anyway, I don’t have the time or patience for this. MsB and NV, I wish you many happy years of marriage, and many healthy children.

Enjoy yourselves.

~CK

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Monday, August 4, 2008 8:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
Oh come on, if the question had been, “If someone were to happily announce that he was gay and was going to marry his life-partner, is there ever a good time to tell that person that he’s going to hell for being gay?” you all would have told that person how offensive it is to confront someone like that. But as soon as it’s anti-establishment and anti-traditional-families, it’s somehow ok to spout hate speech??

My point was simply this: we each need to realize when our dearly-held views are controversial and considered offensive by others, and then keep those views to ourselves. My intention was not to shut down discussion, but rather to point out that some people would find that point of view very offensive. The idea behind the Imponderables was that we could discuss things here we couldn’t discuss in the outside world, and my point was that the view expressed regarding children is very offensive to some in the outside world.

That point is fine. I just didn't get that point when I read your post. I got more of a feeling of "your opinion is wrong and you should never state it because you're wrong. You shouldn't even ask that question because it's offensive. Now do as I say or I'm leaving."

It didn't come off well. I figured you were just upset cause the question hit home for you.

I only saw too people worried about the questions coming out about marriage and they were only questioning it because they didn't want anyone's feelings being hurt. We got one request to stop sex talk and really if we wanted to keep talking I'm sure we would have. I don't see the attitude's around here changing too much.

I hope you'll stick around cause your posts are always fun to read. You've got interesting views on things and you always speak your mind (when you have time to post).

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Monday, August 4, 2008 9:32 AM

Just a 'congrats' to MSB and NVG in the midst of the discussion. :D

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Monday, August 4, 2008 9:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Just a 'congrats' to MSB and NVG in the midst of the discussion. :D

Hey you! Pay attention to your ZeeBug signal. You had MsB all worried that you got earthquaked to death.

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Monday, August 4, 2008 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Just a 'congrats' to MSB and NVG in the midst of the discussion. :D

Hey you! Pay attention to your ZeeBug signal. You had MsB all worried that you got earthquaked to death.

Heh...maybe the signal was momentarily disrupted by the general earthquakeyness of CA. No need to worry...I'm forever north of the earthquake. I was like 'what? there was an earthquake?' Which really is the best kind of earthquake. The worst is the 'wait, why is the ground moving? Is this an earthquake? Oh crap, am I suppose to get under my desk or in a doorway, or run outside or look for the "v"s? Why don't we have earthquake drills anymore? Are those only for the little kids so they can ensure the future of the indigenious peoples of California? Let the old die off from stupid earthquake behaviour and the young, and apparently earthquake-savvy, will re-populate.' By which time the shaking is over (at least of the earth, I usually feel a bit unsteady for a few minutes after) and you've managed to execute a plan of inaction rather than action.

You guys got all talkie on me there for a few days. Even the tamest of tame talks of sex. Gone are the days of blushing while reading the imponderables.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Monday, August 4, 2008 10:25 AM

yay! rugbug's back XD

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Monday, August 4, 2008 11:18 AM

HUGS CK we love you and I don't think anyone meant disrespect to your way of life or your family ( especially not Em who is the tenderest and sweetest person) Come on sweety you know you and everything you say are always welcome here

RUGBUG!!!!!!!! You're ok. I've been worried. Glad to hear you were far away from the quake ( oh and thanks for the congratulations)

HUGS Zeek..well said sweety

HUGS FLT

____________________________________________

Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Monday, August 4, 2008 11:59 AM

*HUGS MsB back*

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Monday, August 4, 2008 12:12 PM

____________________________________________

Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Monday, August 4, 2008 12:32 PM

^_^ hugs all around lolz

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Monday, August 4, 2008 12:45 PM

My dress is here!!! ( my Inara costume dress) and it fits:)

____________________________________________

Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Monday, August 4, 2008 1:10 PM

TRAVELER

Hugs right back at you freelancertex and all above.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Monday, August 4, 2008 1:24 PM

HUGS Hey traveler...what have you been up to?

____________________________________________

Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Monday, August 4, 2008 1:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
But as soon as it’s anti-establishment and anti-traditional-families, it’s somehow ok to spout hate speech??

Whoa! Now I'm spouting hate speech?! How did that happen? Honestly, this REALLY upsets me. Please tell me CaliforniaKaylee or anyone else on this thread exactly what wording I used to be percieved as a vitriolic spouter of hate. I really need to know. Quickly, before I cry.

I thought that I expressed my personal opinions in a way that made it clear that I expect and accept others won't agree with them and that I would never intentionally upset people by discussing them (this kind of crept up on me). Now I'm left with the impression that I'm the lowest of the low on a par with a homophobic bigot. Please help me understand how this happened as I don't want to offend anyone accidentally again. I also know that once the hurt fades I will begin to get angry and so need help from others who have a dispassionate and objective view on the debate.
I may sound a bit whiney here, I can normally take a spirited debate with equanimity and have been called all the names under the sun by opponents and laughed them off. This just caught me off guard on a 'friendly'non-real world events thread!

___________________

Hissssssssss!

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Monday, August 4, 2008 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MSB:
My dress is here!!! ( my Inara costume dress) and it fits:)

Ok, shaking off the above and trying to move onto nicer thoughts.

MsB in an Inara costume? Now that's a MUCH nicer thought! Can we see piccies?!

I told my mum about forthcoming wedding of online friends today and she asked if it was going to be Firefly themed! Seems you already have the dress!

___________________

Hissssssssss!

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Monday, August 4, 2008 1:37 PM

NVGHOSTRIDER

I'm not sure if it will be that evident but we will definitely have some element involved since it kinda is what brought us together. I never really thought what it would be until now. Now I gotta use my brain. Thanks Ems (NOT!)

Thinky squishy stuff is sore now.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Being an artist means not having to avert one's eyes.
-Akira Kurosawa

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Monday, August 4, 2008 2:20 PM

HUGS Em..see this is what I said to CK you are very sweet and tender hearted and would never ever willingly upset someone. I think that some chance remark tapped a very sore spot ... I am sure we can all work it out

Oooh not really a theme, but definitely aspects should be included. Don't know why I didn't think of that... argh now I really have to think

HUGS EM you're such a sweety

____________________________________________

Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Monday, August 4, 2008 2:28 PM

Holy crap people! What a ta do. Now it appears as if I did not word myself well. What I was saying was that MSB and NV had only JUST made their announcement and could we just hold off on questioning whether or not marriage was a valid concept at LEAST until they had had some time to just feel the joy.

I didn't tell anyone they COULDN'T ask the damn question, I simply pointed out that it wasn't very appropriate time. But hey thats my OPINION and last I checked we were allowed to have those here. Anyone that was offended I apologise, but then I was offended for my friends.

As for EM, she was trying to assist me with my point, for which I thank her. She has not spouted hate speech.

Now don't make me call mother. She won't let us have milk and cookies if we can't play nice.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

"Yes-- Cheney are Bush are men of peace-- this we know. It is terrible that their good deeds are being thwarted, misinterpreted-- so much so that they are forced to direct others to torture prisoners." Professor Michael Levine

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Monday, August 4, 2008 2:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:

Thinky squishy stuff is sore now.

I hear that! Although mine is slightly picked by the bottle of champagne I have just drunk (birthday treat!)

Don't worry, I'm sure all the nice folks on here will provide ideas to help out on the Firefly related theme.

I have a friend who insists that he could build a life size model of Serenity out of sheet steel and two by four for under £10,000 in my parents' field. Honestly, he's worked out all the details and plans! Maybe that could be your chapel!

(P.S. Thanks for the sweet words MsB, you always pour oil on troubled waters. I'll accept that hugging now!)

___________________

Hissssssssss!

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Monday, August 4, 2008 2:29 PM

well, I am thinking loin cloths - but then I think I already mentioned that............

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, August 4, 2008 2:37 PM

Hhhmmm, is that in any way Firefly themed, or do you just want to see NVG in a skimpy outfit?!

___________________

Hissssssssss!

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Monday, August 4, 2008 2:39 PM

sssshhhhhh!

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, August 4, 2008 2:40 PM

seeing my lovely Em, I shall now be forced to write a fireflyish limerick for NV and MSB.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, August 4, 2008 2:43 PM

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!! You guys are hilarious. Hmm Em I think that might be over kill... plus we're doing it simple and quiet :)

____________________________________________

Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Monday, August 4, 2008 2:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
seeing my lovely Em, I shall now be forced to write a fireflyish limerick for NV and MSB.

Ha ha! Beat you!

I always go for speed over content!

Our Ghost Rider he hatched a plot,
With his girl he was to tie the knot.
She in a pink gown,
Him in coat of brown,
And they hope that the guests won't get shot!

___________________

Hissssssssss!

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Monday, August 4, 2008 3:02 PM

*applauds*

HUGS Em... so what big plans for the birthday??
and just how much champagne have you had?

____________________________________________

Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Monday, August 4, 2008 4:37 PM

TRAVELER

Hi MSB:

I am trying to find a reasonably priced copy of the first season of Farscape. It eludes me. I have ordered the other seasons, but the first season is no longer available. So people are selling copies at inflated prices. Gotta love free enterpise.

And I continue to go over to IMDb to search for films I saw many moons ago and forgot their titles. So I try to remember the cast and search through their filmographys until I strike the right one. Of course it helps if you remember the cast. Some of those films from the Fifties are hard locate, because the actors are no longer around and I have no reference. I found "Back Street" by pure luck. IMDb allows you to look for films by catagorys, so I went into Film Noir a searched through their list. Lucky for me "Back Street" begins with a "B", so it was not far down the list.
If it was titled "Zero Street" I would still be digging through their files.

The real problem is the more I search the more films pop in my head.

I just got found an Alan Arkin film called "Slums of Beverly Hills". See this one if you want a good laugh.

Now I just need the money to buy all these films.

But I promised myself Farscape after I finally saw the first season on FANCAST.COM. I don't have cable so this was the first time I got to see the episodes in proper order. Of course you have to go to Wikidedia to get the order because FANCAST.COM does not place them in order. I will never understand why FANCAST does that. Imagine my dismay when I realized I was watching Cleopatra 2525 in the wrong order. So never watch anything on FANCAST until you check with a website you trust. Maybe you knew that already. I just like to warn people.

Now are you glad you asked.
traveler

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Monday, August 4, 2008 4:58 PM

of course I am glad I asked.... oh and I saw the first season of Farscape as it aired... so I get it:)

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Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Monday, August 4, 2008 11:32 PM

WHITEFALL

Hi all... I've been busy as all for the past few weeks, thought I'd read the ol' imponderables while I have a moment. First off, my news, aside from I-went-to-comic-con-and-it-rocked-my-world... uh... yeah, I'm looking for an internship for the fall, and they havent called me back yet but I might end up working for FOX (if it's good enough for Whedon it's good enough for me) in their development department, which would be movies again, but I think it'd be on the same lot as Dollhouse, so I'd be happy.

I can hope, perhaps they shall call back. Maybemaybe.

At any rate, first things first... CONGRATULATIONS MSB AND NV!! WOOO!! I missed a lot of the exciting courtship time, I was gone for awhile and then Oh,hey, MSB AND NV, OMG. but I'm really really happy for you two. Really really. And I hope you two are (continue to be) really happy.

You lovable, wonderful folk, just... yeah. After the MSG days and the NV-ex rages... I'm so glad you two have each other.

That said, I want to put it out there that I, like some of my crazy liberal feminist friends, am rather against the INSTITUTION of marriage. I think it's awful that the government gives incentives to get married, but doesn't reward alternative lifestyles at all. And I think the INSTITUTION (i'm trying to clearly differentiate between the institution and the people who live in it, one of whom is myself who will probably get married some day but just in a slightly more liberal manner I hope) is horrifically sexist: the name-changing thing (my mother didn't change her name, go her, and I really wish I had her lastname lol, it's not as annoying), the proposal thing (huge major huge props to CK for just flat out telling your man that you were interested), that whole bachelor party thing, the father giving away daughters thing, the list goes on and on.

That said, I'm totally cool with people getting together and saying "hey yall, this person is awesome and I'm going to be with them a long long time, get used to it and witness our kick-ass-ness" to their friends. But the marriage instiution has so many sneaky little patriarchal holes in it, argh.

So that's my marriage rant, and I'm still really happy for MSB and NV. Really really. But let me just point out, like someone said, long ago in the yonder days, Tristan started this thread so we could debate topics of mystery between men and women (and I'd now like to add "everything in between, down with gender binarism"), and well... marriage... is a big deal to us single folk. We want to know about it, we have opinions about it, we're worried about it, we're scared about it, the whole shebang. And I was so so happy when MSB came in and layed the loving smack-down on the debate by saying that... well... this is what we talk about, we have opinions, we have confusions, we voice them. Woo.

And as for the population thing... although I am one of those dreaded liberal snobs (who was in the earthquake, by the way

but on a bus and i didnt even notice it), I do think the issue of population growth is a contentious one and... well, has anyone ever read Ender's Game? I myself only plan on having two kids, but the day we start limiting family sizes to two is the day the government takes over our lives and... actually that'd be an issue as big as abortion, telling the government to get out of women's bodies.

But for the record (and because i just took a class on this stuff), CK was justified in her position, the overpopulation issue, while according to my professor last quarter it will be the biggest problem for human survival in the coming years, bigger even than global warming. (But America is currently in a slight population decline. For once, America isn't directly the problem, though we soak up far more than our share of gloabl resources.) But do you know what can solve population growth? (in my humble feminist opinion) It's not telling people how many kids they have (China does that, by the way, their one-child policy...) it's a question of family planning and economics. Give the world birth control, and they still might have lots of kids, that's fine, but on the global scale, people could have sex without having children they can't feed or don't want, and can decide how big they want their family to be. And economics, if people didn't need children to help on farms and suchlike and if infant mortality wasn't so high, people might not have as many children. So there's that, just my opinion of how maybe condoms can save the world.

So... CK I apologize if that was a bit western-biased leftwing-nutcase, but that's somewhat the situation as I understand it.

And Emma, I'm not sure anyone answered your question of what you did to get CK mad, but... as far as I can tell, it was just an extremely unlucky choice of issue i'm afraid. Ender's Game, seriously, good commentary on the evils of direct population control.

Ok that turned out more preachy than I wanted, but I went on a tangent because I liked what I learned, I'm a student, i do that. Let me close with... YAY MSB AND NV ARE GETTING MARRIED, HUZZAH!!! and... CK, NOOOOOO PLEASE DON'T GO, WE'LL MISS YOU SOMETHING FIERCE!

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon.

"All love is unrequited... All of it." -Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 5:22 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER

Howzit everyone.

Heya Whitefall. On the kid thing, I see it this way. In my families there were a ton more kids in the previous generations. So far it is just my sisters two and my brothers one and neither of them really want too many more. Even on the part of my next closest cousins they have one or two and that is it. It is a really wierd happening that my closest generation is very low on the procreation scale from before. Just a wierd realization.

only three weeks and a bit 'til D*C. YAYYYY!!!!

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Being an artist means not having to avert one's eyes.
-Akira Kurosawa

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 5:47 AM

I didn't want to bring it up yesterday with the emotions flying high, but I don't think the third baby thing is a good analogy to the marriage thing. If you don't like the institution of marriage and someone decides to get married they aren't harming you. You might be upset that they don't agree with you but they're decision has no impact on your life. With the over population issue if you really believe a third child is harming the ecosystem then that decision to have a third child is harming you to some extent.

That's where that issue will get more complicated in the future if it really does become a problem. The marriage thing should never get as heated.

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 5:52 AM

Whitefall!!! HUGS sweety I will keep my fingers crossed for you on the whole internship thing. Thanks for the congratulations :) Yes times have definitely changed for the better

Wow deep ponders.... on the whole ( looking at statistics) the US population is declining. So relax and just have the number of kids that's right for you and that you can afford...

Ok gotta go get the kids and do the alphabet

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Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 6:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Whitefall:
(who was in the earthquake, by the way but on a bus and i didnt even notice it

Hi Whitefall! Glad you got to experience the 'What? There was an earthquake?' earthquake. If you are close to it, I think driving is the only way to not feel anything. 'Cept of course if you are on some sort of bridge that can't withstand the shaking. Then you go from 'what earthquake?' to 'holy hell the road is collapsing' and that is even worse than plan of inaction earthquake.

Emma: I don't think you were spouting hate. I think you inadvertently hit the tip of an iceberg and CK was speaking, rather emphatically, to a "them" and not a "you". I hope that is correct, because I don't think you deserved the lashing.

Whitefall: Even easy access to birth control isn't going to change the birth rate all that much. For a lot of religions and/or cultures, even non-agrarian ones, having a large family is expected and desired. Until that is changed (and I'm not sure that would be a good thing), people are going to keep having babies, maybe even more than they can care for.

My opinions=

Marriage is good. It is not just an legal document. To me, it's becoming family with someone that doesn't share blood with you. It's making a, hopefully, lifetime committment to someone else. While I do believe you can do that without the paper, I'm not sure it happens as often. It's easier to let go of someone without that paper.

Kids: I always joke that my friends are taking my allotment of children. I have a number of friends with 4 children. My step brothers and sisters all have 3 children each. I don't want any, so they are filling my child-bearing obligations (it's a joke). I do hold the 'if they can support them, what difference does it make to me?' philosophy. Even so, I hear of another pregnancy and my first reaction is 'holy hell, another one?' I think people who have children they can't support are irresponsible, but I don't think having to share rooms or wear hand-me downs constitutes not being able to support children (in fact, I think that stuff is good for character development). These days it does seem that what is an acceptable level of support has become ridiculously high.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 7:10 AM

The kids thing is so complicated to me. I have not studied any of the info on it though. So, I really can't form a great opinion. I just now that it's way more complicated than just whether or not you can support your kids. If the world is running low on resources then you being able to afford your kids is great but it also means you're taking resources away from other poorer people than you. So, when does your right to have children infringe on other people's right to have children? Is it really fair to say only the rich can procreate? I sorta doubt that's where we're at yet, but I don't think it's as easy as just saying "have as many children as you can financially support". I also sorta doubt that over population is the only issue concerning the environment.

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 8:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
If the world is running low on resources then you being able to afford your kids is great but it also means you're taking resources away from other poorer people than you. So, when does your right to have children infringe on other people's right to have children?

I'm not sure it has anything to do with wealth, per se. Like I said earlier, I don't think being able to afford children means you aren't considered poor by some. If you can pay to fee them, clothe them and provide shelter, by all means procreate. If you are struggling to do those things for yourself, it's probably not all that great an idea to have children.

As far as burden on the environment. I really don't think you can judge that. One person may have a minimal impact on the environment while someone else is a walking environmental disaster. Do we begin judging people's carbon footprints and deciding how much impact their lifestyle has before allowing them to reproduce?

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 9:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
I'm not sure it has anything to do with wealth, per se. Like I said earlier, I don't think being able to afford children means you aren't considered poor by some. If you can pay to fee them, clothe them and provide shelter, by all means procreate. If you are struggling to do those things for yourself, it's probably not all that great an idea to have children.

As far as burden on the environment. I really don't think you can judge that. One person may have a minimal impact on the environment while someone else is a walking environmental disaster. Do we begin judging people's carbon footprints and deciding how much impact their lifestyle has before allowing them to reproduce?

It's the law of supply and demand though. For instance milk prices are on the rise right now. Just because bill gates can afford to have 100 kids and buy out all the milk in the store does that make it ok? Is it ok even if he pays for a private supply of milk to be delivered to his house and now the supply of milk is strained even more so the price goes up to the point where someone else can no longer afford to have children? Every body indirectly effects everyone else and if resources really become strained then it will get to the point where prices will rise and the rich will still be able to afford them while more and more people drop into the poor category.

As for measuring carbon footprints and stuff I doubt it will get to that. There will probably be a sin tax on things that hurt the environment to try to discourage them. As for children if it ever gets to the point where overpopulation is a major issue I'd guess that the government would institute child bans based on numbers that average out people's carbon footprints.

In the end we just need to get ourselves out into space :-) There's plenty more planets for us to colonize before the universe is over populated.

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 9:20 AM

HUGS Zeek and Rugbug

hmm well here's the thing...that's like saying making a big paycheck takes money away from other people who could use it... But the thing is, they wouldn't have it whether you had the paycheck or not. Yes resources are finite, but not completely so... vegetables are renewable as is milk and most other food products.. it's kind of the same as moms saying eat that because there are kids starving in Africa... you eating the food doesn't give them anything nor does it take away...

Oh and a totally unrelated note
www.heifer.org can really make a huge difference in a poverty stricken village:)

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Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 10:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MSB:

hmm well here's the thing...that's like saying making a big paycheck takes money away from other people who could use it... But the thing is, they wouldn't have it whether you had the paycheck or not.

A bit tangential, but I personally think Mr. or Ms. Bigpaycheck ought to be giving enough away so that bigpaycheck is nicepaycheck. Then 'notenoughtolivepaycheck' should be supplemented.

We're a country of unnecessary wants and extravagance. Who needs an 8,000 sq foot home and 6 luxury cars? It's become ridiculous, IMO. We're all victims of that mentality to a degree. I sit here and type away with sentiments like that when I have a 'goodenoughpaycheck' (not necessarily nice, but it works) that I stretch to pay for my one luxury item...my horse. And while I would tell you the I NEED a horse, I know I really don't and could get by without one if necessary. I get that someone who works hard to make money deserves to spend it how they choose. But when the biggest indicator of future wealth isn't how hard you work or your education level but instead the socioeconomic class into which you were born, we have a problem.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 10:07 AM

I couldn't agree more.... I love my sister dearly but her enormous house is silly for her, her husband, and one small child. I think having enough to eat healthy food, live in a comfortable reasonably sized house for your family, and pay all your obligations should be enough for anyone...

Also why I brought up the heifer foundation. I love what they can do with just a little money:)

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Love doesn't make the world go 'round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile.

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 10:32 AM