Imponderables: Waiting For Sundown by nvghostrider

FIRSTIES!!!

NV

And no I had no secret knowledge by which to obtain firsties...just lucky ( in more ways than one)

Ok hey how about a ponder...

What is the one item from your school career you will or have kept and why??

I kept a bunch of pictures and a few dresses but the big thing I kept is a jewelry box given to my by two friends:) It was a really sweet gift and it reminds me of them

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."
Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.”-Dave Barry

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Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:49 AM

Firsties hacker!

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Tuesday, September 23, 2008 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MSB:
Hmm yeah yearbook lots of fun to look at years later...

And is helpful when you get friend invites on facebook and for the life of you can't remember who they are.

I'm currently wracking my brain to remember who a few people were and wishing my yearbook wasn't in a closet at my mom's house.

Class rings: I've found out recently they are good at embarrassing your sister a gazillion years after they mean anything. I "virtually" ran into one of my brother's friends from High School. The guy is between my age and my bro's and I had always had a crush on him. He actually went to high school with me and not the bro (bro and I went to cross town rivals. I think it summed up our relationship). Well, turns out my brother stole his class ring. Loser. Heh.

Gorram: that makes sense now. They stop doing class pictures after elementary, right?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:

In an age were everyone and their pets have a digital camera, I'm not sure what the big deal is about going to a "professional" photographer to "capture the moment". Take your own photos, they'll be better than a pro's.

But maybe I'm just overly not-sentimental. ((snerk))

Well, with your photography skills, I see no problem. However, most people aren't even half as talented as you are with a camera. For example:

An okay snapshot I took of my horse:

which I didn't discover the potential of until I cropped it to this:

Compared to a similar, albeit 90x's better, shot from a pro (it was scanned from a wallet size so the scan quality is poor...not the photo):

For some of us, a pro shot really is worth the $$.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 3:31 AM

HELL'S KITTEN

...I'm not sure I see your point.

I like your photo much better.

(I see the rich, warm browns and an actual spark of life in the horse's eyes captured in your photo, as opposed to the broken necked look with the dark muted tones the professional captured.)

It doesn't take a professional to capture a genuine moment in time for you and your family. Families do that all the time - and have since the advent of affordable personal cameras - and it actually means something to them. Do kids remember their professional photographer sitting(s), or do they remember that vacation to Hawaii where you made them put on those lame shirts and a hula skirt? My 'rents took pictures of us against a plain wall so they could fill up their own yearly photo doohickey. I guarantee I didn't look any different in their photos than I did when the school photographer came around for the yearbook.

PS> I am so very not a professional photograph. I'm an absolute hack. I take pictures and eventually get one not-half-bad. Skill not required.

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 5:28 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER

You may be, but perception and position have a lot to do with it. Sneakyness has it's advantages.

Good morning people.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Being an artist means not having to avert one's eyes.
-Akira Kurosawa

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 6:18 AM

ah fire drills. Add in nap time and I'll feel like I'm right back in school. My laziness fought my boredom and boredom won. So, instead of wait for an elevator behind the whole building full of people I walked the 6 flights of stairs. Now I'm all winded. Stupid exercise.

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 6:26 AM

We had a fire drill yesterday

Rugbug your baby is GORGEOUS!!! What a beautiful coat and his confirmation is excellent!!

HK you're a great photographer and I'm betting even pros take a ton of shots to get one perfect one

Ok off to an elementary to get spit on and kicked:) oh happy day

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."
Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.”-Dave Barry

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 6:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
...I'm not sure I see your point.

I like your photo much better.

(I see the rich, warm browns and an actual spark of life in the horse's eyes captured in your photo, as opposed to the broken necked look with the dark muted tones the professional captured.)

It doesn't take a professional to capture a genuine moment in time for you and your family. Families do that all the time - and have since the advent of affordable personal cameras - and it actually means something to them. Do kids remember their professional photographer sitting(s), or do they remember that vacation to Hawaii where you made them put on those lame shirts and a hula skirt? My 'rents took pictures of us against a plain wall so they could fill up their own yearly photo doohickey. I guarantee I didn't look any different in their photos than I did when the school photographer came around for the yearbook.

PS> I am so very not a professional photograph. I'm an absolute hack. I take pictures and eventually get one not-half-bad. Skill not required.

HK: you're definitely not a hack. You take very interesting pictures. Your framing and lighting are intriguing. Whether you're doing that with Photoshop after the fact or have the knowledge to set it up for the actual picture, you've got an eye for what makes an interesting picture. I don't have that. A lot of people don't. It's probably one of the reasons I don't even own a camera.

I can take decent pictures with my friend's $20K Canon set-up (whoo boy is that a nice camera). I can even take professional quality action shots of horses...because those shots are pretty set and you don't need to do much other than know which moment is important. Make sure the sun is in the right place, set the shutter on burst, focus on the horse's shoulder, and your golden. A monkey can take a decent shot. But the truly artistic and "wow" shots take some knowledge.

I would say that in capturing moments, there's no need for a pro. For interesting, inspired pictures that deviate from the norm, a pro is necessary for some of us.

I've got myriads of other examples of good pro shots vs. ammie vs. bad pro shots. I don't agree with your assessment of the pictures I posted. ;) I LOVE the one I took...but it wasn't any good until it was cropped. I have an 11 x 14 of the pro one that is amazing. 'Course a lot of that comes down to personal taste.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that a pro really can be worth it, depending on your goal. If you want to capture the moment, they're not necessary. If you want interesting pictures, they may or may not be necessary depending on the ability of the amateur, and even the camera they have available. I watched the quality of a friend's photos improve by leaps and bounds by spending a bit of money on a nice camera($300-500 range). If you want experience and knowledge of what makes interesting photos, a GOOD pro is the way to go.

Now, all that might not even be pertinent to a discussion about senior portraits. I do know that my senior portrait was the first time in my life that I actually felt pretty, like I measured up to the popular kids. It was an ugly duckling/swan moment for me and it probably tempers my feelings towards getting nice senior portraits. Is it necessary? Nope. But it can be worth it. :shrug:

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 6:51 AM

HELL'S KITTEN

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
I don't agree with your assessment of the pictures I posted. ;)

Well... that's because you're WRONG! BWAAAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahaaa!! XD

Seriously, I really do like your picture better, even taking into account that it was cropped and the other was scanned. (I'd bet one whole US dollar that the pro took at least a couple shots and ended up cropping those, too?)

And thank you for such a compliment.

I see your point about professional versus amatuer in certain circumstances. But when it comes to a generic portrait (sorry if that sounds harsh) for a moment-in-school-time, I think $250 (starting price?) is insane. There really is no magic involved in sitting someone down in front of a cheesy backdrop, taking a dozen or so photos from slightly different angles, and printing out a digitally captured image onto different sizes of archive-grade photo-worthy paper. It seems to me to be more that both the school and the photographer know they have the parents over a barrel, so to speak, so they're going to squeeze them for every penny they can.

...and you have a beautiful horse, by the way. Makes me miss my uppity old nag (feisty appaloosa / quarter horse who hated the farm kittens). XD

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 7:01 AM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Morning all.

Hm, what did I keep from high school? My actual diploma and my year book from my senior year, and not much else. I think all my prom dresses (that I made by hand

) are in my mother's house somewhere still. I think I got rid of most everything else. But then, I had a boyfriend in high school who turned out to be a bit of a slime later on, so a lot of my high school keepsakes were dumped because of that.

I didn't get a school ring. The gown for graduation was rented but the cap was bought (nice splitting of the fees with the school, IMO), but I'm not sure I have the cap anymore either. I think I have my tassel and the decorations I put on my cap around here somewhere, not sure.

I got the professional photos my senior year, because if you didn't you couldn't get into the yearbook. Which kind of sucked, but at the same time I can see the argument on the school's part -- that way the photos all came from the same photographer, and looked cohesive. It ended up being a fairly nice picture of me, though sitting for it was horrific. All the girls had to wear this black wrap sort of thing around our shoulders, and push our bra straps down our arms so they wouldn't show. It looks awesome in the yearbook, but I was probably already in 30GG range by then, but was wearing the wrong size and generally hated my body, so having to sit for professinal photos basically not wearing a bra was a really uncomfortable experience.

As far as hiring a professional photographer for other events, the only one that makes any sense to me at all is at your wedding. I hired a pro who took everything in digital (in 12 megapixels, which was pretty impressive 5.5 years ago ;) ), and it allowed me and the hubby and our guests to just relax and not think about the photos and stuff. We only did a couple of posed ones immediately after the ceremony, but the rest of the time she was able to really blend into the background and get these really great candid shots. Totally made the day.

But for everything else, I agree with HK: invest in a good camera, maybe take a photography class at the community center, and just relax and take fun pictures. Your life doesn't have to look like you have a professional television crew following you around at all times. Your own pictures are more real, and will mean more, I think.

But fwiw, if I were to ever have portraits done I think I'd rather splurge on a professional make-up artist and skimp on the photographer.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 8:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:

...and you have a beautiful horse, by the way. Makes me miss my uppity old nag (feisty appaloosa / quarter horse who hated the farm kittens). XD

Thanks! I have an opinion about Appaloosas that involves them often being worth their weight in gold. Although one that hates kittens...How can that be? (my horse hates goats...and mini donkeys. That's about all of the wild kingdom he's been introduced too. :D)

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 11:46 AM

My wife and I to this day regret NOT getting a professional for our wedding. We had a family member recommend a friend, and since we were (and still are) poor, we said sure. What a fiasco that was. Not the pro he was made out to be.
And yes, schools have parent's over a barrel, but it's not their fault. They have to use whatever company they can get to take the photos, and the companies know this, so they totally shaft everyone on the price of the pics.
As far as other photos. I've always enjoyed the candid photos here, as much as the posed/art/pro photos. Only for major events should a pro be needed.

'Who are you and how did you get in here?' 'I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.'
Police Squad

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:27 PM

u took stills *and* vid at my cousin's wedding :-P but it was kind of a last minute thing XD

professionals are definitely worth it if they do the job right. they can screw up too. ive heard stories

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 1:28 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Ok seriously pissed now! Bossbitch and HRbitch are trying to tell me that time I take for physical therapy and the time I had off cause the workers comp doctor said to stay home come off of my personal leave and lunch hours!

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 2:50 PM

HELL'S KITTEN

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Ok seriously pissed now! Bossbitch and HRbitch are trying to tell me that time I take for physical therapy and the time I had off cause the workers comp doctor said to stay home come off of my personal leave and lunch hours!

Unfortunately, that's common practice. With FMLA, time off work comes from PTO before any other benefits kick in....

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Wednesday, September 24, 2008 3:46 PM

FMF i can make them disappear...:evil grin:

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:19 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER

Good morning Ponderers.

I can be a dick when I don't want to talk about stuff. Seems like it's little stuff, but there is usually a whole lot of it.

Is anyone else like that?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Being an artist means not having to avert one's eyes.
-Akira Kurosawa

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:43 AM

It's Thursday! The light at the end of the tunnel is beginning to shine in. This is enough for me today.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Ok seriously pissed now! Bossbitch and HRbitch are trying to tell me that time I take for physical therapy and the time I had off cause the workers comp doctor said to stay home come off of my personal leave and lunch hours!
Unfortunately, that's common practice. With FMLA, time off work comes from PTO before any other benefits kick in....

Yep...although it does matter how the PTO is designated. If you get a lump sum as "PTO" it doesn't have to be used. If you get 'sick', 'personal' and 'vacation' you have to exhaust sick and possibly vacation. I can't remember if it is both.

I got lucky in that when I was out of work for four months (non-work related injury), I didn't have to use my PTO. I had 9 weeks accumulated when I was injured. I came back to work four months later with 4 weeks left. That was pretty awesome. (I also got lucky because my company held my job and continued my benefits for that extra 4 weeks...and more lucky because we have LTD, so when I returned to work Part Time, the LTD made up the difference in my salary to full time.) I guess I should be happy with where I work, instead of griping about the 0% raises and the cutting back of paid holidays, and the other tightening up we are facing.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:08 AM

*sigh* My happiness for light at the end of the tunnel is quickly dissipating. I have a meeting at noon on Thursdays so I try to eat at 11:30 and make it to the meeting. Today a manager stopped by and ate up 15 minutes of that before I could go grab a few minutes and then he interrupted me in the middle of eating to talk more...I finished a little of my lunch and called into my meeting late and I'm trying to quietly munch the rest of my lunch now. grrrr

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
*sigh* My happiness for light at the end of the tunnel is quickly dissipating.

Poor Zeek and his quietly eaten lunch.

Our HR manager is extinguishing the brightest parts of our Fridays: Department breakfast. Grrr. Seems she got her feelings hurt because tomorrow we are having a company wide meeting to which she brings bagels, cream cheese, and yougurt. Our breakfast fairy put around an e-mail to our dept. asking if we wanted to partake in that or for her to bring in breakfast pizza. Most people responded breakfast pizza and the HR manager is all 'they don't appreciate me.'

We are now officially limited to one big dept breakfast per month. Fart on that.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:23 AM

What is this breakfast pizza you speak of?

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:18 AM

If true to form, it is cream cheese, sweetened, on a sweet pie crust with fruit for toppings. Very nummy and bad for you, except the fruit.

'Who are you and how did you get in here?' 'I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.'
Police Squad

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:37 AM

She killed breakfast pizza??? what a bitch

FMF...sigh ah the joys of corporate. You shouldn't have let the boss's favorite push a stack of boxes onto your head( I still think you should have dropped the little wenie off a building for that)

FMF boss

Ok back to observing kids... hey the little pee boy peed on the carpet instead... and when he went to pee on the teacher...he'd already emptied his bladder so he couldn't tee hee hee. Lucky for us he didn't think of any other toilet related possibilities:)

Am now off to deal with a 5th grade girl who keeps stripping off on the bus... male teacher freaking out and doesn't know what to do

CK -big hugs for the icky semi nude uncomfortableness ( no way they'd allow that these days)

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."
Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.”-Dave Barry

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 1:34 PM

breakfast pizza sounds good. who killed it and why?

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 1:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
What is this breakfast pizza you speak of?

I don't know...and now won't for a few weeks. :(

Gorram, I don't think it's what you posted. We have that as birthday dessert around here quite often. So yummy.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 2:24 PM

ODDBODSKINS

I always thought breakfast pizza was cold takeaway drowned in mayonnaise?

____________________
'That torpedo hit us hard. We've got serious damage to the thrusters, heat warping in the secondary camshaft and the right side emergency jets completely knackered. We can't thrust, our shafts bent, and we'll probably never shoot off from the right hand again!'

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:19 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Quote:
Originally posted by MSB:
CK -big hugs for the icky semi nude uncomfortableness ( no way they'd allow that these days)

Lol, MsB, it was only, what, 10 years ago this month, I guess. And in California no less!

I did have a shirt on though, or a towel or wrap or something, can't quite remember. But nothing enough to support the boobage, with the bra straps pulled down. So it wasn't so much semi nudity as it was massive lack of support while trying to sit still and look pretty, hehe.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:26 PM

AIKO

I've always though breakfast pizza was like breakfast burrito fillings (sausage, eggs, maybe ham or peppers?) on a pizza crust.

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Friday, September 26, 2008 5:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Aiko:
I've always though breakfast pizza was like breakfast burrito fillings (sausage, eggs, maybe ham or peppers?) on a pizza crust.

I googled. It sounds like this is pretty close. They used crescent roll dough as the crust. I'm sure that type of stuff just varies.

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Friday, September 26, 2008 7:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
Quote:
Originally posted by MSB:
CK -big hugs for the icky semi nude uncomfortableness ( no way they'd allow that these days)
Lol, MsB, it was only, what, 10 years ago this month, I guess. And in California no less!

A lot of the schools still use the wrap thing for the girls and the boys have to be in a dark jacket, white shirt, dark tie combo. My brother's school was like that. Mine wasn't. :D

'Course his yearbook pictures were in color. Our's were in black and white. I guess they got the cohesiveness that way.

After asking some questiong, Aiko is right about breakfast pizza. I also think Odds is on to something as well. ;)

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, September 26, 2008 7:21 AM

MAGDALENA

"No power in the 'verse can stop me!"

Breakfast pizza for me is whatever is left over from the previous evening, heated up if you can wait, eaten cold if you're too hungry/lazy to care...

Hey there Jailbait!

{{{hugs}}} MsB... LOL about the pee pee kid!

Glad he had exhausted supplies before he attempted to pee on the teacher... though I know it's genuinely not funny!

{{{{hugs}}}} NVG & I know what you mean about going quiet, sometimes I need to work out what's bugging me before I vocalise it, but I have learned that it's not healthy to do so for too long... better to broach a subject, however small, even when it's still forming in your mind, than to cause concern and frustration in yourself and your loved ones by 'clamming up'... not that my Mother ever quite noticed when I did, but others have and it bothered them more than I realised at the time! Sometimes the very 'verbalising' helps you to work it out in your mind...

Hello & {{{HUGS}}} Gee, FMF, Rugbug, CK and all my long-lost friends from the 'verse! I have been slack lately - sorry about not dropping in more often, life gets in the way and I am a very busy nanny!

Got to run! It's good to see you around!

CPT Magda Martin, CO of India Co. (Australasia)
www.myspace.com/lady_magdalena
www.crazypurplewombat.blogspot.com
www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=603506986

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Friday, September 26, 2008 8:40 AM

SQUEEEE!!!! HUGS Magda

CK- I was just thinking 'cause nowadays a phtographer saying he needs all the teenage girls to take off their shirts, wrap fabric around themselves and lower their bra straps is likely to get arrested

I make breakfast pizza on biscuit crust with sausages, eggs, and a sauted mix of potatos, onions, peppers, and tomatos and then cover the lot with sharp cheddar and bake:)

OK deperately trying to stay awake... not a lot of sleep last night

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."
Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.”-Dave Barry

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Friday, September 26, 2008 8:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MSB:
not a lot of sleep last night

Well done NVG!

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Friday, September 26, 2008 9:08 AM

You owe me a new monitor Zeek! Dripping Dew right now.

'Who are you and how did you get in here?' 'I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.'
Police Squad

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Friday, September 26, 2008 9:10 AM

Damn I love you guys... I really don't know why, but I do

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."
Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.”-Dave Barry

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Friday, September 26, 2008 9:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gorramgroupie:
You owe me a new monitor Zeek! Dripping Dew right now.

I thought Dew + anything makes the anything just that much better? I think your monitor is just improved now.

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Friday, September 26, 2008 9:46 AM

Sticky ,but improved???

ok we all need a laugh
http://www.northcountrygazette.org/2008/09/24/impaired_cooler/

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."
Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.”-Dave Barry

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Friday, September 26, 2008 10:58 AM

Given what has been said, I will not touch the obvious response, my brain is dirty enough without corrupting you innocents.

'Who are you and how did you get in here?' 'I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.'
Police Squad

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Friday, September 26, 2008 11:01 AM

LOL...

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."
Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.”-Dave Barry

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Friday, September 26, 2008 11:33 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER

Happy Friday Ponderers!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Being an artist means not having to avert one's eyes.
-Akira Kurosawa

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Friday, September 26, 2008 11:35 AM

AIKO

new shoes are AWFUL! bleah... blisters no es bien!

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Friday, September 26, 2008 11:38 AM

I take your greeting and substitute my own:
Hene cheechee thppt!

'Who are you and how did you get in here?' 'I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.'
Police Squad

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Friday, September 26, 2008 7:15 PM

Ok cherry martinis are good... ( am preventing myself from a long diatribe on NV's virtues as you are all sick of hearing me go on and on about him... but he is the greatest ever)

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."
Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.”-Dave Barry

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Saturday, September 27, 2008 4:31 AM

You made NVG into a cherry martini?!!

'Who are you and how did you get in here?' 'I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.'
Police Squad

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Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:27 AM

Oh ha ha ha...

The cherry martinis were excellent:)
NV continues to be the most wonderful and amazing man in the universe

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."
Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.”-Dave Barry

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Sunday, September 28, 2008 6:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GorramGroupie: I take your greeting and substitute my own:
Hene cheechee thppt!

isn't it i *reject* your greeting and substitute my own? :-P jk. adam savage rocks

wtf is hene cheechee thppt?

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Monday, September 29, 2008 2:47 AM

ODDBODSKINS

Huhm, morning all, and hey Magda! s'good to see ya xD

So, I'm betting a good few of you lot have been taking in heroes season three, starts here weds, opinions? (spoilery free please!) 'Cos I wouldn't want to think I just marathoned seasons one and two for nowt.

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'That torpedo hit us hard. We've got serious damage to the thrusters, heat warping in the secondary camshaft and the right side emergency jets completely knackered. We can't thrust, our shafts bent, and we'll probably never shoot off from the right hand again!'

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Monday, September 29, 2008 3:24 AM