Objects in Space - Question by Schism

...tell her what?

more likely River hearing something from Inara's past. She's looking right at the camera when she says it...more about her "secret" and what she keeps away from Mal, to spare him, rather than what she wants to hear him say.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:26 AM

OIS is, IHMO, the greatest single episode of Sci-Fi ever written. As such, I have spent countless days analyzing it.

This subject has been debated for 5 years on this forum, but I will maintain my strong belief that river's visions in the episode are:

Other Peoples Secrets

River is not actually walking through the ship, she is psychically projecting. As she looks to people she hears what they hide in their hearts. Jaynes comment is obvious: "I got stupid, the money was too good" related to his betrayal on Ariel. Simon's also fairly obvious: "I'd be there right now" refering to his thoughts that had he not attempted to save his sister, he'd still have his rewarding career.

In the commentary for OIS (I Highly Highly recommend listeining to it) Joss refers to the crew's statements as being "Things we've seen before and also things we do not yet understand" Mal, Inara, and Books' comments fall into the latter category. What follows are my personal speculations:

Book: "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not, so where does that put you?" A reference to his days as an alliance opperative, and something horrible he did. Perhaps leading to a desire to attone.

Inara: "I'm a big girl, just tell me" A day she was on Sihnon in front of a doctor, learning something very very bad. Something that drove her away from the guild and into the black.

Mal: "None of it means a damn thing" A strange, mysterous statement that I speculate is related to the Unification War.

Wash and Zoe: River feels their secret love for each other. While it's obvious they are married, in the sequence they think they are alone and are therefore being more intimate in thought and deed than they ever would in public.

The most interesting thing of all is that Kaylee says nothing in her sequence, but rather stares emotionless towards river. The theory behind that subject I like is that Kaylee is a free spirit that wears her emotions on her sleeve and therefore has no secrets at all. (Recall from the film "I ain't had nothing twixt my nethers weren't run on batteries") Because of her emotional heart and subsequent lack of secrets, when River looks at her, she sees a blank slate.

Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:31 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:
I have a question.
Maybe it's dumb.
Maybe it's not.

At the beginning of the episode, River is overhearing conversations, and then hearing what she THINKS she hears (such as her brother's "I'd be there if it weren't for you" comment).

Inara's comment was "Tell me. I'm a big girl."

........tell her what?

It's a mighty fine question - one that playfully haunts me for several days every time I watch the episode. It's also a question that's been raised here before, but I can't remember the answer...or if there even was an answer, beyond some folks' educated speculation (and with some questions, that's all the answer there is

). Keep checking the thread - maybe one of the Firefly scholars will stop in and address it. In the meantime, for more food for thought on the matter, below is a link to Wikipedia's Words of Wisdom on the subject (tho' it didn't help me much...).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objects_in_Space

ETA BSCM's post (above) appeared while I was composing my post. I think he's hitting the nail pretty gorram squarely on the head. And now I'm having an especially acute attack of remorse over Firefly's demise...

It was like that when we got here!

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:35 AM

SCHISM

Oh Wiki, why did I forget you?
:p
Hey, that brought up a good question.
Did she hear what she THOUGHT they really thought?
Or was she actually picking up REAL thoughts that they subconciously tucked away?
I have to say, while watching it, I thought it was her poor self-conciousness getting the better of her...

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:

Or was she actually picking up REAL thoughts that they subconciously tucked away?
B]

That one.

Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:50 AM

River picks up real thoughts, she is telepathic, in case you missed the memo.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:19 AM

SCHISM

Well yeah, i knew that from watching the movie (watched it first, unfortunately) but they hadn't clearly defined that in the series yet (later that episode, actually).
So with that in mind, I just assumed she heard what she thought they were thinking based on her fear that they all secretly hated or feared her.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:51 PM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:
Well yeah, i knew that from watching the movie (watched it first, unfortunately) but they hadn't clearly defined that in the series yet (later that episode, actually).
So with that in mind, I just assumed she heard what she thought they were thinking based on her fear that they all secretly hated or feared her.

Hey - thanks for bringing it up! Otherwise I'd have likely never read BSCM's explanation, and who knows if I'd have ever thought it through that way myself. I'd got about as far with it as you had, but hadn't even considered the idea of some of these "unheard" remarks relating to things from the characters' pasts.

I've gotta start doing logic puzzles in my spare time or something - my brain's getting flabby!

It was like getting whacked in the forehead by a 2x4 named Serenity when we got here!

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:26 PM

FREEBROWNCOAT

BSCM's comments are right on. Secrets is what River was manipulated into reading.

Mal, looking back on the war, the pivotal point in his life, finds the results of the war wanting. All those lives, all those emotions, privations, and he is struggling just to keep one smuggling ship in the black.

Once again, right on!

"She feels everything. She can't not!"

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:45 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
OIS is, IHMO, the greatest single episode of Sci-Fi ever written.

I'm right with ya on the same page, BSCM. It's up there with City On The Edge Of Forever (Trek), Demon With A Glass Hand (Outer Limits) & And Jesus Brought A Casserole (Dark Angel), but better'n all of 'em!!! It's so beautiful I can't even believe it ever got made.

Definitely Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:57 PM

And then was River even traveling from room to room and actually seeing the others? After all she just suddenly has one of Jayne's pistols in her hand an we never see her enter his cabin. What we do see is her picking up off the floor of the ship's hold, that is also covered in leaves and branches. So was she also visualising the scenes we are watching? And if she was, did she interpret them accurately? Just like Simon's words were probably his true thoughts, but they did not go so far as to blame River, even though they seem to imply it. We are left with River's interpretations of other's thoughts that are not completed.

This may be what really hurts her. She only gets fragments of peoples thoughts and this creates stress. I can see why she has fits and gets sick on Simon's bed. At least she proves her intelligence buy not getting sick on her own bed. I would be screaming and throwing things to. Then Mal would get angry and the cows would stampede in the ship's small hold and make a mess. Not good.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 6:19 PM

good questions, travelar, I can't answer those, but I have one to add.

Mal and Inara, are having an extremely private conversation about Inara's plans. River is standing right there and they don't even see her, how is that possible? Is she not there? Wouldn't they naturally keep moving, away from her?

And BSCM, I think you got everything right, except Book...maybe law enforcement instead of Alliance Operative.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:03 PM

Hello Platonist:

I think if FOX had only aired this one episode we would still have this forum. I think more people bring up "Objects in Space" more then any other episode.

And that is an excellent point about Mal and Inara. Why did they not move away or simply split off to return to their private discussion later?

If River was not really there, and only saw them by using her powers, then they would think they were still alone.

Even though everyone looked directly at her when she heard the statements, they never acknowledged her. Not one person said "Hi River," to her. And as soon as they finished their statements they went right back to what ever they were up to before she entered, I use that term loosely, their presence.

My impression is her mind was floating through the ship and her body was elsewhere. Phsyically she was getting Jayne's pistol and loading it. I do not believe Jayne would keep a gun loaded. He is very professional about his weapons and I don't see him leaving a gun loaded. I think River loaded the gun. It even had a round in the chamber. Not good.

In all I like the ending. The way Mal not only worked with River to deal with Jobal, but how he spoke to her as she returned to Serenity. He was welcoming her on board. Not just to enter the ship, but to say you are part of this crew. I actually had tears in my eyes as I watched that scene. I know. I'm being foolish, but that is how I felt.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:32 PM

Yeah, definitely agree this was a show defining episode, it's all played out there from Simon's implied blame he's not sure is justified, to Mal's defeat that keeps him from being whole, Jayne's guilt with an explanation, Book's former life he's atoning for, and Inara's life shattering news she keeps hidden from others. All the little skeletons they hold near and dear.

And your theory of River being elsewhere is thought provoking. What was she going to do with the loaded gun?

And, I love the snowsuit scene (cause that’s what I call it, have you ever had to get your kid out of one of those when it’s wet?) with River and Mal. It’s really the first time he smiles at her… so sweet.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:47 PM

Now I have that image from "Christmas Story" where the younger brother is so bundled up in winter garments by the mother he complains because he can not lower his arms. It is so cute watching the mother trying to push them down and they keep springing back up. They just stick right out like a scarecrow. Well now I know the next film I'll throw in the old VCR.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:02 PM

Christmas Story, is that the one where the kid wants a gun from Santa? I vaguely remember it.

How perfect is that for a Firefly Christmas!

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:19 PM

That is the one. One of the funniest Christnas films ever made.

Now that you mention it, the gun is loaded and dangerous. I am sure Jayne probably started his career with a BB rifle. Wasn't Jayne discussing his marksmenship with Book just as River enters the dining room? Something about a bent sight.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:36 PM

Yes, Jayne was talking on his celebrated marksmanship, good catch.

I'm not a gun enthusiast, but I come from a family of hunters and gun collectors with lots of brothers. Our family fire evacuation plan always included a rescue the guns and ammo component first before even the family photos. And, yes Dad always started us with a BB rifle, so I hear your connection.

My question is what was she doing in Jayne's bunk?

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Friday, November 21, 2008 6:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I'm right with ya on the same page, BSCM.

Wow! Did we finally just agree on something Chris?

Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Friday, November 21, 2008 7:50 AM