Firefly Treating Women Cruely by twinklestar146

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Firefly Treating Women Cruely

POSTED BY: TWINKLESTAR146
UPDATED: Sunday, November 3, 2002 09:18
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 8030
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Friday, November 1, 2002 2:09 PM

Hi, I'm new to the show and I wanted to know if this post is true or not...

1. On FF we have a woman who is a prostitute and this is considered to be the most honorable profession a woman can be in.
2. We have another woman that began the show being tortured.
3. We have another woman that was given away as a gift.

It was posted on another board. Was a woman really being tortured????? Can anyone explain??

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Friday, November 1, 2002 2:22 PM

THESKINWALKER

True but out of context.

Also not gender specific.

The concept of the "Companion" (Space Hooker) is a respected hired consort. They deal with only high society, choose thier clients themselves and there are both male and females. They are held in high regard and their profession is very ritualistic and includes much more than sex....it includes music, conversation, and other things people desire from a true companion.

The girl being tortured was not being tortured because she was female. She was being experimented on for her extrodenary mental abilities. She is supergenius, is able to predict events before they happen, and has insite into the minds of others. Evil badguys would have performed these experiments on anyone or thing that had these abilities.

I dont want to spoil the "Gift" thing for you....but I will say that no female has been given away as a gift on the show.

Also one of the strongest most formidible members of the crew is a woman. The character Zoe is an intellegent first officer and the feircest warrior on the ship.

Even the "Space Hooker" has an increadible sense of dignity and indepedant strength.

I think Firefly portrays women in a very respectable way.

You also might say

1) a Man was kicked into an engine intake

2) a Man on the show is a habitual criminal and is well respected for it.

3) a Man was brutally beaten and his arm slice by a rather large swinguard stiletto folding bowie.

you will also find non-violent, comedic, and touching moments on the show as well. Envolving both genders

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Friday, November 1, 2002 2:34 PM

MUDDER999

There was a woman who was supposedly given away as a wife in trade. This act, however, was deplored by the main character, Captain Mal.

Saffron: Are you gonna kill me?
Mal: What!? What kind of crappy planet is that? ... Kill you.
Saffron: In the maiden's home I heard talk of men who weren't pleased with their brides...
Mal: Well, I ain't them! And don't you ever stand for that sort of thing. Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back! Look, wife or no, you are no one's property to be tossed aside. You got the same right as anyone to live and try to kill people. I mean, you know...people that are...that's a dumb planet.

FF is an extremely women-friendly show.

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Friday, November 1, 2002 2:47 PM

AVALON

Quote:
Originally posted by twinklestar146:
1. On FF we have a woman who is a prostitute and this is considered to be the most honorable profession a woman can be in.

I'd just like to add that while it's indicated that Companion is a honored profession, there is NOTHING in the show to indicate that this is the MOST honorable profession a woman can be in.

Personally, I'm very pleased with the portrayal of women on this show. As The Skinwalker said, Zoe is a strong soldier fully capable of kicking the gluteus maximus of pretty much any guy who crosses her. Kaylee is a fantastic engineer and a woman who is utterly comfortable with her own sexuality. Inara, the Companion you've referred to, is a sharp businesswoman and a true force to be reckoned with. River is amazing in her own right; brilliant beyond words.

Please watch the show. It would be the best way to understand what's happening on FIREFLY.

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Friday, November 1, 2002 2:50 PM

MALCOLM

Quote:
Originally posted by Avalon:
Quote:
Originally posted by twinklestar146:
1. On FF we have a woman who is a prostitute and this is considered to be the most honorable profession a woman can be in.

I'd just like to add that while it's indicated that Companion is a honored profession, there is NOTHING in the show to indicate that this is the MOST honorable profession a woman can be in.

Nor is it said that only a woman can be a companion.

-MBS

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Friday, November 1, 2002 2:54 PM

YEAHITSME

Quote:
Originally posted by twinklestar146:
Hi, I'm new to the show and I wanted to know if this post is true or not...

1. On FF we have a woman who is a prostitute and this is considered to be the most honorable profession a woman can be in.
2. We have another woman that began the show being tortured.
3. We have another woman that was given away as a gift.

It was posted on another board. Was a woman really being tortured????? Can anyone explain??

the people who said those things out of context are only pissed off Dark Angel fan(and I heard some of them were Tara from BTVS fan) and they say that cause they decided to get Firefly canceled to make themselve feel better

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Friday, November 1, 2002 3:34 PM

GWENNIE

Oh come on. Get over this Dark Angel Vs Firefly crap (sorry Haken tell me if i cant swear)
I am sick to death of people like you accusing others of being Firefly haters cause of Dark Angel's cancellation.
It was Fox's decision. Not the fans, not the cast or crew of firefly, but Fox who made the decision. People may still be upset but why would they come to fireflyfans.net if they weren't firefly fans??????????????

Love me

or hate me

Your going to find what I think either way,so learn to deal.

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Friday, November 1, 2002 3:51 PM

YEAHITSME

I didn't say he was really one of them but read this http://dafans.proboards9.com/index.cgi?board=S3&action=display&num=103
6110214 and you'll see that everything he said come from there

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Friday, November 1, 2002 4:21 PM

TWINKLESTAR146

Alrite well I want to thank all of you for giving me that explanation! It really clears some things up for me.

I'd like to tell you all something else as well.

I'm a devoted Dark Angel fan, and basically, I'd like to clear some things up to. I have never bashed any FF fans or done anything bad on the boards, I came here to see if I could clear some things up and find out a little more about Firefly.

At first, Dark Angel fans were extremely angry at Firefly. That was because there was really no one to take their anger out at. But then the fans got organized and now we've been working on our campaign to save the show. The majority of the fans working on the campaign really don't care about letting their anger out at Firefly fans. It isn't important, and it certainly doesn't do anything to save Dark Angel.

I'd also like to let you know, a lot of the information posted is from Web Warlock, who is NOT a Dark Angel. Web Warlock gave the Dark Angel fans that information and, knowing it would probably be biased, I came here to clear it up and see what the REAL story is.

Again, thank you very much. Good luck with your show staying on the air and I hope it does, it sounds like a good show and it definitely proves the 'woman cruelty' part of the show wrong.

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Friday, November 1, 2002 6:33 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Well, I never thought I'd see the day when a Joss Whedon show was accused of sexism. In fact, I'd say that every one of Whedon's shows is feminist in the pureist sense of the word. By that I mean that one of the underlying principles of each show is that women are not inheirently lesser--or better--than men.

Check it out:

Willow - Grows more and more powerful as the show progresses, and I'm not talking about her ability to flay people alive with the power of her mind.

Cordy - Kicks serious bootay, and that's not even counting in her ability to verbalily evicerate a person at will, or even her power to vaporize a building full of baddies.

Buffy - needs no explaination. hopefully.

Fred - Ok, so she's not alowed to use the words "dawg," "bro," or even "word" in certain contexts, AND art is not her best subject. But, she is still a genius that can kick vamp behinds and spout witty dialogue.

Lilah - I'll give her this. She may be evil, but she also inteligent, brave, cunning, and has more than her fair share of political acumen (sp?). And she knows one thing: if she's running errands, they better be evil errands. So she's also a woman of principles.

Dawn - a work in progress.

Tara - to know her was to love her. And let's not forget her masterful handeling of Spike in "Older, and Far Away."

Anya - does not take any

off her men. Anyone that thinks that Anya is anything but cool, obviously missed last episode.

This is obviously a far from completel list, but you get the idea. Now compare this to the list of weak, pathetic female characters:

Harmony - was always a moron, even in the first draft of the pilot. Some people are just stupid.

Dawn (every season but this one) - at least she's getting better.

Riley - gets honorable mention ever though he's technically male.

Apart from these, I'm drawing a blank...

________________

At first it's just a place, and then you start to make memories and then it's like... that's where Spike slept, and there... that's where Anya and I drowned the Separvo demon and right here, here's where my heart got all ripped out... I really hate this place

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 6:40 AM

ESME

Please at least try to spell correctly when you post, re:'Cruelly'. Look it up!

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 6:54 AM

EVANS

Spelling doesn't count here, I don't think.

My boss's spelling skills aren't worth beans, but he is still one of the most brilliant optical test engineers in the world, I do not exaggerate.

m.

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 6:55 AM

NOVAGRASS

Quote:
Originally posted by twinklestar146:

I'd also like to let you know, a lot of the information posted is from Web Warlock, who is NOT a Dark Angel. Web Warlock gave the Dark Angel fans that information and, knowing it would probably be biased, I came here to clear it up and see what the REAL story is.

And Web Warlock is a major creep with serious reality issues. He's one of the more vocal of the fans scorned by the death of Tara, and has been out to destroy everything Joss Whedon since the big incident. He's somewhat detatched from reality, and nothing he says should be considered rational.

And I think it's hysterical that Joss Whedon has been accused of being some huge mysogynist, when in reality, he is one of the biggest feminists in the entertainment industry. His development of "Buffy, The Vampire Slayer," was as a feminist statement, as he's repeatedly said, and his major intention with that show was to stir culture to respect women as strong individuals, as he has also repeatedly said. Even the female writers of the show, known feminists in their own right, have been consistantly shocked by Whedon's respect for women, with Marti Noxon saying "He's more of a feminist than I am" when refering to Whedon's plotting of season 7.

Whedon should be getting a big kick out of all of these absurd anti-feminist agendas he's been accused of, I know I am.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 7:19 AM

ESME

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 7:22 AM

ESME

Quote:
Originally posted by Evans:
Spelling doesn't count here, I don't think.

My boss's spelling skills aren't worth beans, but he is still one of the most brilliant optical test engineers in the world, I do not exaggerate.

m.

Incorrect spelling makes posts hard to read.
It's like being neat- nothing to do with professional skills or intelligence! I wasn't saying you're dumb.
End of topic for me.

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 8:47 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
Quote:
Originally posted by Evans:
Spelling doesn't count here, I don't think.

My boss's spelling skills aren't worth beans, but he is still one of the most brilliant optical test engineers in the world, I do not exaggerate.

m.

Incorrect spelling makes posts hard to read.
It's like being neat- nothing to do with professional skills or intelligence! I wasn't saying you're dumb.
End of topic for me.

Spelling is much like writing, singing, flying an airplane, and lots of other things in that you can study till your face is blue, but a portion of your performance always boils down to the "knack." Some people have a gift for it, some can study to get pretty good at it, and others will always be abysmally horrible at it no matter what they do to improve it. According to my Senior English teacher, she read that if a person wasn't a good speller by the time they were in high school, then odds are they ain't never gonna be.

WARNING! WATCHING FIREFLY MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR GRAMMAR!

________________

At first it's just a place, and then you start to make memories and then it's like... that's where Spike slept, and there... that's where Anya and I drowned the Separvo demon and right here, here's where my heart got all ripped out... I really hate this place

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 9:32 AM

TWINKLESTAR146

Ok, the whole thing about spelling, message boards aren't exactly known for being the best place if you're a perfectionist about spelling. Just letting you know not everyone here keeps a dictionary handy to look up words so they can keep their posts neat and tidy!

I just want to make it clear that the Dark Angel fans to not appreciate the people going over to the Dark Angel Reflections boards and trying to kill the hopes of our fans. I'm just trying to make peace between both groups of fans.

Kyley Statham
www.geocities.com/kyleystatham
The ultimate fansite for Dark Angel's Jondy!

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 1:43 PM

JAYNELOVER

wow I had no idea that there was some war between Firefly and Dark Angel fans. How silly. I never liked Dark Angel but I feel bad for you guys having to lose your show. And if it's any consolation (I'm sure it's not), us FF fans are probably going to know how you feel before long. Which depresses me so much.

But anyway, I'm new here. Seriously in love with Firefly. Thought I'd chime in re: Web Warlock. That nutjob has been doing all he can to attack Joss ever since the death of Tara. WW, as a previous poster said, is very removed from reality and should never be taken into consideration. I feel sorry for him, but I get sick of his insane rants too.

And for the record, I think Firefly has wonderful female characters. The show neither exalts nor puts down it's characters whether they are male or female. Rather, the characters are treated as human, with many levels, faults, and strengths.

I love this show.

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 3:16 PM

NOVAGRASS

Quote:
Originally posted by jaynelover:
wow I had no idea that there was some war between Firefly and Dark Angel fans.

It was a mostly one sided war. Some horribly immature Dark Angel fans took it upon themselves to "crush" the developing Firefly fanbase. It was their belief that Firefly canceled Dark Angel or some such nonesense.

These fans began trolling the Firefly message boards, throwing around horrible insults and whatnot. But the best part is that the show hadn't even aired yet! It was a pretty irrational tirade.

We had some encounters with Dark Angel trolls here, and the official message board was saturated with them. Thusly, an image of immaturity and irrationality was associated with the Dark Angel fanbase, and some of the early Firefly supporters tend to attribute all Firefly bashing to the efforts of the scorned DA fans.

I'm really proud how maturely *most* of the Firefly fans reacted to the situation... but there were a few who inevitably wanted to strike against the unwarranted provocation by the DA fans. Fortunately those people are few and far between, and most of us realise that the Dark Angel fans with so much time on their hands, who dedicated such intense efforts to trolling, do not represent the whole of Dark Angel fandom, simply the rabidly immature, socially handicaped "children" who wanted someone to blame for the cancellation of their show.

It's mostly over by now. Every once in a while we'll get a troll raising half-baked complaints and throwing more irrational insults. But yeah, whatever, it happened months ago and it pretty much over, like I said earlier.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 5:41 PM

SENSOU

Quote:
Originally posted by Evans:
Spelling doesn't count here, I don't think.

My boss's spelling skills aren't worth beans, but he is still one of the most brilliant optical test engineers in the world, I do not exaggerate.

m.

Spelling counts everywhere, because if you spell a word wrong, people could have no idea what you're saying, or a totally wrong idea. But as long as what you're trying to say comes out alright, I think it's OK. Then again, I've been known to spell my own name wrong.

Sensou
Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Curel is love when all is hell

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 6:02 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Spelling does count most of the time. That's why there is spell check.

However, with the Internet, trying to enforce spelling rules is skiing uphill. Unless you're talking about a business e-mail, or something else formal--and there isn't much of that on the Net--then spelling does not count.

________________

At first it's just a place, and then you start to make memories and then it's like... that's where Spike slept, and there... that's where Anya and I drowned the Separvo demon and right here, here's where my heart got all ripped out... I really hate this place

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 6:11 PM

TWINKLESTAR146

Wow we definitely need to clear some things up here!

Because this board is mainly Firefly fans (obviously), I think a lot of you might be getting the wrong side of the situation.

Dark Angel fans DID come here (or to other message boards) and probably did bash the show. But they do not account for the thousands of other Dark Angel fans, who have never gone to a Firefyl board. If you'll visit the board that I come from, the same that Web Warlock posted that message on, you'll see how the fans there aren't angry at the Firefly fans at all.

http://dafans.proboards9.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&nu
m=1036142892

This is the link and shows how the Dark Angel fans there aren't exactly killing the fan who posted on our boards.

It's really important to see that Dark Angel fans weren't the only ones lashing out, Firefly fans have come to our boards and posted messages meant to destroy our hope and other things like that. It's not just a one-sided ordeal. You may say 'Dark Angel fans started the fight' but the fans that came and started flames on our boards are no better. And just like those fans, they do not represent the whole.

Fans that hate Firefly don't even watch the show, they just hate the idea of having another show in the place of Dark Angel. They don't hate the people that watch it.

I just wanted to clear all of that up to make sure everything is ok between both boards!

About Web Warlock, I definitely realize that what he says is put out of proportion a lot. And it's a good thing I came here to get the real side of the story!

Kyley Statham
www.geocities.com/kyleystatham
The site for the girl behind Dark Angel's Jondy!

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 6:15 PM

TWINKLESTAR146

I also wanted to add, about the Dark Angel fans thinking Firefly canceled their show, it can be seen it that way. Dark Angel was cancelled for Firefly, it was a last minute decision made by FOX. The originial pilot of Firefly was not liked and Dark Angel was going to be renewed, but then the writers came out with a new pilot, only one hour long, and that was favored over Dark Angel. So that's the whole grudge-against-Firefly deal.

Kyley Statham
www.geocities.com/kyleystatham
The site for the girl behind Dark Angel's Jondy!

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 6:31 PM

THESKINWALKER

Kyley

I think it is cool you even went to the trouble to seek the truth. A lotta people wouldnt have even bothered if they saw a post like that. You got my respect

I have no sense of politics so I dont understand the whole fans vs. fans caca. But I can say I was mucho skeptical about Firefly when I first heard about it. I am not a big western fan, I grew up on a cattle ranch in CO and rebelled against anything "western"....heck I dont even have TV. But (as you may find out from the official Firefly site) I got involved and once I actually saw it I am now a super-ultra-mega-fan.

Even with all the aparent rubish about DA Vs. FS Vs. FF Vs. BVD . It represents a small yet noisey part of the fan population. Personally I dont take offence, I just chalk it up to the fact that there's always gonna be some bone-heads if you gotta big enough group. You had more brains and decided to think for yourself.

Nice website too.

Also (having seen your post while I was posting) I have worked for FOX going on 3 years.....I have stopped trying to understand thier corporate decisions, I just try to make the best out of em.

Hope if they read that they take it the right way

.............................
I am gonna put the barfing smiley down here just cause it makes me laugh and I wanna see it. Doesnt have anything to do with the post.

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 6:57 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Personally, for my two cents, I kind of think it's beautiful how we can all put aside our petty differences and get along in love and harmony... and Ok, now it's getting so muchy I'm making myself yak.

Seriously, it's cool though.

________________

At first it's just a place, and then you start to make memories and then it's like... that's where Spike slept, and there... that's where Anya and I drowned the Separvo demon and right here, here's where my heart got all ripped out... I really hate this place

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Saturday, November 2, 2002 7:32 PM

MOPBUCKET

Hello all,

This is my first post, but I must admit that I was and still am a fan of Dark Angel. Alba and Weatherly's chemistry lit up the screen, which, I guess, is why they are still together today. Let's face it, though, the 2nd season of DA was a let down after the 1st. Personally I'm glad it was canceled. I'd rather see Jessica Alba in a good show or movie then one that is going downhill.

As for FF and it's treatment of women. If you think Whedon or this show is sexist against women you're barking up the wrong tree. Simply watch the show and you'll see what I mean.

PS-I don't know about ya'll, but I think Jessica Alba would make a great guest star on the show. How about a role as Jayne's sister (who can kick his ass) or a rival companion of Inara's (for reasons central to the plotline of that episode). Come on, who doesn't think that would rock?

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Sunday, November 3, 2002 12:00 AM

JAYNELOVER

twinklestar146, I think it's really cool that you did come here to investigate WW's comments. A lot of people wouldn't have thought to actually seek out the truth on their own. Add me to the list of posters here who respect you for it.

I wasn't here to experience any DA Firefly-bashers, so I can't really say much on that subject. All I can say is, I think most people are rational enough to realize that the fanatics (of every fandom) are a sad, small few. I went to the link you provided and was happy to see everyone exchanging opinions with such maturity. Why can't all people be like that...

I'll admit it makes me kind of sad when people won't give the amazing show that is Firefly a chance, but I don't blame them for it. I just love this show so much, and I know it could find an audience if FOX had the balls to stick with it.

And about the spelling, yes it's important. It's also kind of ridiculous to fault someone for one typo (like you don't ever make them? I know I do) when the rest of her spelling is perfect.

---
Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Sunday, November 3, 2002 2:17 AM

KITHKILL

Quote:
Originally posted by twinklestar146:
Hi, I'm new to the show and I wanted to know if this post is true or not...

1. On FF we have a woman who is a prostitute and this is considered to be the most honorable profession a woman can be in.
2. We have another woman that began the show being tortured.
3. We have another woman that was given away as a gift.

It was posted on another board. Was a woman really being tortured????? Can anyone explain??

The next most rabid fan of FF that I know personally is my ex, who still comes round every week to watch the show. She loves the way the female characters are portrayed. Kaylee's a down-to-earth girl in the traditionally male role of engineer (she's into that 'cos she's a sound engineer herself, and thinks it's nice to see a gal giving the blokes a run for the money). Zoe's just nails (she's into that, too, and is currently deciding whether or not she'd get too many stares if she took to wearing long overcoats - and a shotgun, but that's a whole diferent story). River's a super-genius, and Inara's obviously not in a particularly submissive role.

Come on, this is from the guy who brought us Buffy, where a young girl kicks ass every week and has saved the word from approximately twelve separate apocalypses. No, the show isn't treating women cruelly - certainly not any more than the men...

Cheers,
Kithkill

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Sunday, November 3, 2002 3:57 AM

BULBUS

I can see how someone can take Inara's "Companion" status as being derogatory, but really you have to take a step back from modern day thinking, and view it in another perspective. Prostitution is hardly a "new concept", it's been around for ages. And in certain society's there have been levels of it that have been quite well respected. In Japanese Feudal times, you had people called Courtasans (sic?) that were quite sought after and admired. Prostitution was a part of their jobs, but equally so were entertaining the clientelle through conversation, music, dance, or even jokes. This evolved to the point where you had Geishas, who were completely dedicated to the entertainment portion of the job, and only slept with a client on their own decision, you couldn't pay them too.

The idea of a Courtasan is actually the closest to the idea of Companion. Even the name implies itself, "Companion" which focuses more on a close relationship, rather than a purely sexual arrangement.

Somebody mentioned that there were male companions out there, which is probably quite accurate. I've missed one or two eps. so I can't say if the show mentined that.

(Using this emotote because it seems funny with the topic

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Sunday, November 3, 2002 6:34 AM

EVANS

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Sunday, November 3, 2002 9:18 AM

TWINKLESTAR146

Thanks for all of your support! I'll be sure to spread the word around to Dark Angel fans. Good luck with your show and how it does through its season!

Kyley Statham
www.geocities.com/kyleystatham
The site for the girl behind Dark Angel's Jondy!

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