GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Question about the planet Miranda

POSTED BY: NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN
UPDATED: Sunday, December 28, 2008 14:47
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Tuesday, December 23, 2008 6:01 PM

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN


No, sorry. There are so many holes in the theories being put forward here that it is becoming tedious to respond to them all, and this will be my last post on this topic.

To address one point made here, the Pax was not only extremely toxic (99.9% death rate, a tenth of a percent of those exposed being Reaverized) but also very fast acting (by the time the rescue ship got to Miranda, which would not have taken long as we have discussed travel times in the Firefly solar system, there were only corpses and Reavers). So even brief exposure would have provided data about the compound's effects.

Another point made here is that only people of Kaylee' socio-economic status would be recruited as colonists. But obviously, a society of 30 million people would need not only mechanics, but lawyers, doctors, political and business leaders, etc. So that argument seems weak as well.

As for the person who thinks questioning the plausibility of arguments is something a three year old would do, I just have to say that if three years olds are routinely questioning your reasoning perhaps you should re-evaluate your positions.

Folks, just admit that you are doing mental gymnastics to justify the major plot holes of Serenity, rather than admit your dear Joss did a shoddy job in writing the second half of the script. It would have made far more sense to keep Miranda on the charts with a warning to keep away due to toxins or radiation, etc. that resulted from a terraforming disaster, and to come up with a more believable reason for the planet's population crash.


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Tuesday, December 23, 2008 6:13 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Dude, you asked a question, and possible answers were postulated to you. Questioning is fine, and disagreeing is fine, but screaming about how foolish anyone is to think this could ever happen and saying there's no worth in any of the thoughts on the subject, that is what a three year old does. You started the discussion, and though it's a valid discussion to start, I can only assume from your behavior that you started the discussion for the express purpose of yelling about our particular fandom, which is never a likable way to behave.
I like the story for the characters and the dialogue. The setting is interesting, but not why I like it. The premise is also interesting, but never wholly realistic. This is how most Whedon premises I've seen are, and they are not the reason I admire his work. Every work of fiction I admire has holes in it somewhere, it's one of the unfortunate facts of fiction. The story is usually making a point about humanity or something else I find interesting, or it might just be written in an enjoyable way, and that's why I like the things I like. Suck it up.

[/sig]

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Tuesday, December 23, 2008 7:49 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
I guess I didn’t notice these things the first time through because I was nicely toasted by the time I reached the second half. There were several things that puzzled me, but the big one is below. I would be interested to get responses that might point out the errors of my thinking.

I didn’t buy the fact that the entire population of Miranda, 30 million people, could die out or become Reavors, and just 12 years later absolutely no one would remember that either they or the planet Miranda had even existed. I know that the Alliance deleted all information about Miranda from the databases, but didn’t any of those people on Miranda have relatives on other planets who would remember them? This scenario would be like a country with a population of around 30 million people (say Canada or Iraq) disappearing off the face of the Earth and 12 years later no one would remember that Canada or Iraq had ever existed.


A lot to wade through in this thread.
I do not find the premise implausible, at least in the points mentioned by the original post and the direct replies to it.
Kaylee recalled reqeusts for "workers" IIRC. The upper crust folk were from another strata that hers, and were dealt with differently - become landowners, businessowners, cushy jobs, big money, somesuch. These would be the Alliance toadies, from the core planets, and all their friends and relatives would meekly settle down and swallow whatever story the Alliance told them - the government would never lie, right? Look how easily and willingly the Tams wouldn't even believe their own offspring when the Alliance could spread platitudes.
The problems the alliance might have to worry about were the outer world people, watching like hawks with wary and disbelieving eyes. Best way to not only clearly identify these troublemakers, but also rid the verse of them? Why, start a War For Domination of course!!! The untold multitudes of wary and watchful killed in the War likely included those most likely to object to the stories of Miranda dying. Most who avoided the War were the same types who won't care what stories the Alliance tells.
Thus it is very reasonable that the first person to find out the truth about Miranda AND do something about it is Mal, who fought the War on the only Just side, and lost everything in it.

German children are not taught about their country's role in WWI or WWII, or the Holocaust. Nipponese chidren are not taught about their country's role in WWII, or the end of the Imperial armed forces.
The Alliance citizens would allow most Miranda lies to be spread unchallenged, no problem.

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Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:04 PM

MRSUNIVERSE832


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:

Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
I guess I didn’t notice these things the first time through because I was nicely toasted by the time I reached the second half. There were several things that puzzled me, but the big one is below. I would be interested to get responses that might point out the errors of my thinking.

I didn’t buy the fact that the entire population of Miranda, 30 million people, could die out or become Reavors, and just 12 years later absolutely no one would remember that either they or the planet Miranda had even existed. I know that the Alliance deleted all information about Miranda from the databases, but didn’t any of those people on Miranda have relatives on other planets who would remember them? This scenario would be like a country with a population of around 30 million people (say Canada or Iraq) disappearing off the face of the Earth and 12 years later no one would remember that Canada or Iraq had ever existed.


A lot to wade through in this thread.
I do not find the premise implausible, at least in the points mentioned by the original post and the direct replies to it.
Kaylee recalled reqeusts for "workers" IIRC. The upper crust folk were from another strata that hers, and were dealt with differently - become landowners, businessowners, cushy jobs, big money, somesuch. These would be the Alliance toadies, from the core planets, and all their friends and relatives would meekly settle down and swallow whatever story the Alliance told them - the government would never lie, right? Look how easily and willingly the Tams wouldn't even believe their own offspring when the Alliance could spread platitudes.
The problems the alliance might have to worry about were the outer world people, watching like hawks with wary and disbelieving eyes. Best way to not only clearly identify these troublemakers, but also rid the verse of them? Why, start a War For Domination of course!!! The untold multitudes of wary and watchful killed in the War likely included those most likely to object to the stories of Miranda dying. Most who avoided the War were the same types who won't care what stories the Alliance tells.
Thus it is very reasonable that the first person to find out the truth about Miranda AND do something about it is Mal, who fought the War on the only Just side, and lost everything in it.



Exactly!

Plus, if I'm not mistaken, I think I heard someone in the movie say he'd heard that the planet died from a terraforming event or something. If a story's been spun, and the sonambulant public (to well quote Mr. Universe) are used to believing whatever the Alliance government tells them.....then that story is "gospel".



Mrs. Universe

MR. UNIVERSE----> <----MRS. UNIVERSE

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Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:48 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Yes, Terraforming didn't take hold, or similar from Mal in that discussion.

Also, the Core denizens considered Reavers to be campfire stories like boogeymen, not real and not related to Miranda although they occupied the same space. For the past 12 years, the Reaversn had to live on something for food. Perhaps all the friends and relatives who disbelieved the government story, and wanted to find out for themselves (investigate) and could wrangle the transportation, supplied the Reaver buffet. The war years likely provided some supply of Reaver food without undue alarm, and the past 6 years (post-war) the friends & family have supplied more, but now, 6 years later the buffet is running thin and now Mal finds the Reavers spreading farther out from Miranda, crowding his space, because the Friends & Family supply has dwindled. Not to mention that when friends & family repeatedly do not return and are never heard from again, suggest to the rest that it is unhealthy to further investigate, regardless whether the reason is Alliance interference, or actual terraforming failures, or Reaver munching - the remaining relatives become more disinclined to make undue fuss.

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Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:31 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:

As for the person who thinks questioning the plausibility of arguments is something a three year old would do, I just have to say that if three years olds are routinely questioning your reasoning perhaps you should re-evaluate your positions.




It had nothing to do with your questioning and everything with your condescending, rude language. Just the fact that you would even try to pretend that this was aimed at your "daring" defiance of other people's choice to explore possibilities... well, it makes you look incredibly vain.

Merry Christmas, though, if that floats your boat.

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Sunday, December 28, 2008 2:29 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

It was an experiment, obviously. They used the settlers for guinea pigs.

Mind, I think it's a big plot hole, as they would certainly have been intelligent enough to test the PAX on smaller groups before. Maybe it was a dosage issue they didn't plan for.


Maybe they did test it on smaller groups, but they weren't exposed long enough?

Anyway, I think Miranda was an ideal rock: just one of them settler planets (of which the folks back home expect typical pioneering troubles). Besides, it's located 'ideally' remote: not even Alliance ventures to go there if they can help it. But mainly, as has been stated above, I think nobody really cares about a few settlers on some distant rock. So, terra-forming didn't hold or some such? People just shrug and go about their business. 30 million settlers, though, that's a lot. Perhaps those numbers bother me the most, if anything.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, December 28, 2008 2:47 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:

To address one point made here, the Pax was not only extremely toxic (99.9% death rate, a tenth of a percent of those exposed being Reaverized)


There's no evidence at all to suggest the Pax was even remotely toxic. Rather the opposite: people ere died of an extreme form of lethargia:

"The people here stopped fighting. And then they stopped everything else. They stopped going to work... they stopped breeding, talking, eating. There's million people here, and they all just let themselves die."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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