New Series by SpaceGeneral

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

New Series

POSTED BY: SPACEGENERAL
UPDATED: Friday, May 28, 2004 16:29
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VIEWED: 13275
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Thursday, May 27, 2004 8:17 AM

SPACEGENERAL

What about the worms, weren't they "ALIEN" although we would've been the aliens in that film ?

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 8:41 AM

JIMNIGHTSHADE

Quote:
I have to say, I like me my science. We use it to disprove theories of the Bible that suggest Earth is not billions but thousands of years old.

You might want to take a second look at your science. Science will prove that the earth is *not* billions of years old. It has been proven already, just not accepted. The big bang theory has also been falsified and scientists are scrambling to come up with another theory. If one *without bias* seeks answers in science, one must conclude that the earth can not be billions of years old.

But I agree with you about aliens... :)

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 8:51 AM

GHOLA

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceGeneral:
What about the worms, weren't they "ALIEN" although we would've been the aliens in that film ?

Okay I assume you're still talking about Dune (which was a book first by the way) and yes the sandworms were aliens (although not sentient) but I don't really understand why you're saying that as in the post before yours AnthonyT said "There were aliens in Dune, so that's a bad example.". I also don't understand what you mean by "although we would've been the aliens in that film?". Please explain.

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 9:01 AM

BADGERSHAT

Not to stir nuthin up.... but is this dude related to Ghoulman?

--Jefé The Hat

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 9:28 AM

BUDGIE

Im not sure anyone in the posts previous has actually read any of the Dune books and understood the cycle of human ecology with regards to the worms. Perhaps comprehension of story arcs in Sci Fi is beyond many IQ's now.

As for Spacegeneral, the concept of Firefly is not unique in Sci Fi there are many hundreds of good examples of character driven Sci Fi with no aliens, perhaps as your post suggests you have little or no experience of the very wide genre of Sci Fi beyond the few paultry 'flash' shows on the TV or in movies.

Maybe you need to get out more, and perhaps given you dont like Firefly one has to ask why join a site entitled 'Fireflyfans.net' is there any part of that sentence you dont understand??

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 3:20 PM

ZOID

Ghola wrote:

Quote:
Okay I assume you're still talking about Dune (which was a book first by the way) and yes the sandworms were aliens (although not sentient) but I don't really understand why you're saying that as in the post before yours AnthonyT said "There were aliens in Dune, so that's a bad example.". I also don't understand what you mean by "although we would've been the aliens in that film?". Please explain.

First, I will say that I suspect SpaceGeneral is either: 1.) A troll, or 2.) A non-English speaking prepubescent. On the off possibility that number 2 is the case, I'll respond in his(?) defense; in the more likely case (#1), this will be the last time I respond on this thread. Always remember: Don't Feed the Trolls!

Okay, Ghola -- or should I call you 'Swordmaster Idaho'? -- you've obviously found a connection with Herbert's works to a depth that has eluded others. But there's no need to get upset about it. SpaceGeneral is clearly having a hard time wrapping his available intelligence around nine characters, without lovable, cuddly Toys'R'Us figurines milling about the set to make him(?) feel secure ('Meesa luvsa Jar-Jar!'). To her(?), CGI characters suitable for immortalization on a McDonald's collectors' cup are what sci-fi is all about. No Ewoks, no Romulans, no dice. (Although I, myself, have often thought how cool it would be to have Jayne try to mesh his "man parts" with a suitably green or purple femaloid, ala Kirk)

As to the 'alien' reference -- and again assuming that SpaceGeneral is not a troll, only a little deficient in the vocab -- I believe it(?) was intending to say 'extraterrestrial'. In Dune, the sandworms are alien (which only means 'strange') to humans; but since they are the native lifeform on Arrakis, humans would be the ETs on that planet. See how easy it is when you translate it into English?

Assuming for the last time that we're not talking troll from the get-go (and I'm betting we are, for the record), I believe SpaceGeneral is in fact -- with his limited grasp of our language, which is understandable due to his very young age and cultural differences -- trying to point out what he believes to be very important issues: 1.) That the Universe is not so large a place, and certainly full of living organisms, like the ones that have been repeatedly probing his 'fudge factory' after he falls asleep on his fishing boat in the Ozarks; 2.) If we go into Space, we will invariably find intelligent Live, perhaps as close as Europa, a moon of Jupiter or Saturn (depending on what day of the week it is); and that (3.) ALIENS like us must respect those other livevorms wherever they may be, whether we can see them or not, and irregardlesslyful of whether they are as cute and cuddly as those found by Luke Skywalker when he saved the Universe back in 1984.

C'mon, y'all! Where's the love? SpaceGeneral has a point! And if he wears a big enough hat, maybe nobody will notice...

Respectfully,

zoid
P.S.
He's a troll...
_________________________________________________

"I'm telling you right now. When all's said and done, that little girl's gonna change the world. Not just this little bit she's done here, neither; big things. I couldn't be prouder if she was my own daughter."

- Malcolm Reynolds, owner-operator of Firefly-class transport, "Serenity"; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 3:57 PM

GUNHAND

Well most of y'all have already said stuff I would have said in response so...good work.

There is one little appendix I'd add to all the responses though. If Joss decided to put in aliens, and that is a big 'if', then I think it definately would be done in a way that not only wouldn't make the 'normal sci-fi' people happy but would, in fact, piss them right off.

Joss is a complicated guy who writes about deep-ish stuff. So if aliens appeared they wouldn't be cut out cardboard aliens with bumpy foreheads or CGI cuddlies that we go "Howdy, let's live long and prosper together" to, no I don't see that happening. What I see if he'd do it is we'd encounter a basically peaceful alien race and then...we (humans) would beat the everloving crap out of them just for existing. Why? Because that's what we (humans) do. We've done a damn good job of wiping out other humans that were just a mite different than us over the centuries and I really do not see that changing.

Hell the Alliance would loooove if there were aliens. What better way to actually unite humanity than to kill the go-se out of those green/pointy-eared/furry guys over in the next system? The 'Verse ain't a galaxy far away or some bright shiny place where you get a nice jumpsuit and all your cares in the world taken care of, it's a mean and nasty place inhabited by the meanest and nastiest people ever put down in the Universe. Us.

It wouldn't be a nice and happy,"First Contact", that day would go down in their history as the day we started wiping them out and taking their land. If they get really really lucky we may let them have a reservation or two on some of the less scenic planets we took from them.

Now back to the Spacegeneral saying it's crazy to think there isn't other intelligent life out there. There probably is, but with the distances in space our chances of meeting 'em are slim to none. And the aliens can thank their lucky stars that that's the case.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:10 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

Just to let ya'll know, I'm agreeing with Gun' here. I have nothing to say to "Gomer-Space-Pyle".

You know, I always had a nagging idea that the "hands of blue" were actually aliens. You don't need cheesy prosthetics to be alien. Just a cool stick that makes the human body bleed out of every possible orifice. And your gripping description of the human race is the perfect reason why they'd be doing what they're doing. What that was, we may never know, but I have faith that Joss'll wrap it up for us in one medium or another.

And was Inara the "heart" or "mother" of the crew?

That's all I got to say about that.

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:10 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:20 PM

GUNHAND

There's a good series of books called "Vampire Earth", now don't let the title throw ya because it's mostly post-apocalyptic stuff and nowhere near as corny as the series title would lead one to believe.

Not to be spoilish if any of y'all plan on picking it up but one thing that's pretty appearent from the start sorta dovetails with the Hands of Blue being aliens argument a tad.

It goes something along the lines of why aliens chose us to fight their war: "Ants can plan, work together and make war with a singular purpose but individually they're nothing to be feared. A tiger is the most fearsome beast in the jungle but 8 tigers together are no smarter than one. With you humans you have the viciousness of the tiger and the organization as ants. That is why you are the perfect warrior race of any we have ever found. Some may be stronger, some may be more organized, but together you are as a plague."

That's not word for word but gets the point across. I even used something similar with a short story I wrote since I've believed something like that for a good long time, but never saw it spelled out so well as in those books. Makes you wonder about alien abductions where the abductees are never seen again and that missing battalion at Gallipolli now don't it?

So I can see Blue Hands as being alien. Another thing about Joss is that he seems to me the sort that can grasp "alien" and "non-human" as seperate concepts. Not every Sci-Fi writer can do that, there are some people on Earth right now that are completely alien to you or me, would make a Klingon seem not all that strange, but they're not non-humans. Just alien in mindset. For that reason I think the Reavers [o]are aliens. But not some alien race from a distant star, but humans who have become so different that they may as well be aliens. And that since they are 'born' from us, have all our darkest tendencies but amplified. That's scarier than anything that is 'alien' just because it has 6 legs, glowing eyes or bumps on it's head.

At least that's my opinion, and we all know what they are like.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:39 PM

RKLENSETH

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There were aliens in Dune, so that's a bad example.

There weren't aliens in Dune. If you read into Herbert's work it is explained that everything comes from Earth. Over time things evolved due to natural evolution and the enviroment of a planet. Plus, spice on Arakis(sp?) is one of these things that make people evolved faster which is one reason why it is theorized that the worms on Arakis are so big and powerful. Remember that the spice allows humans special abilities such as allowing them to travel through space and many other cool things. Plus remember that Dune is set in the century of 10,000. That is a long time down the road.

I also like the bit about how humans became slave to machines but then eventually overthrew the machines which might explain the reason why they use spice to travel through space rather than machines like warp drive and stuff. I also thought that was a cool original take on sci-fi. It is obvious that sci-fis like the Matrix and Terminator take that idea from.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Friday, May 28, 2004 2:32 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

I always thought the worms in Dune were native to Arrakis. Since you've read the book in more detail, tell me about how the worms came to be. I'd be fascinated to learn of it. Was it a terraforming effort gone awry? "These worms will help make rich topsoil... OH MY GOD!!!"

--Ant

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, May 28, 2004 9:10 AM

SHIKSA

Perhaps Spacegeneral would be happier watching a Reality TV Series: there are precious few humans on them, and they tend to get whittled down with each episode.

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Friday, May 28, 2004 11:01 AM

TIGERLILY

spacegeneral, the show was cancelled prematurely. much information about the firefly universe did not have a chance to trickle down to the viewers.

that being said: you claim to enjoy science fiction. are you aware of any hypothetical terraforming in any other science fiction story that would allow the survival of anything on the planet before terraforming took place? because i don't.

i assume that these worlds in the firefly universe did at one point support alien "life" in probably the sense of grass and algae and whatnot. however, all indigenous life was destroyed in the terraforming process. that is what terraforming does. every science fiction story i know that hypothesized terrforming admits that it destroys everything that was originally there. including any alien "cattle" or intelligent beings.

now if you want to actually be serious, there is an obvious and good reason for a lack of aliens in this story. besides the above, which more than anything is an explanaiton within the story framework of why not, the real reason is this:

this story is about people. human beings.

relateable characters who, when put in an unfamiliar, new, original setting, remain realistic. in fact more so. the idea behind all science fiction, all fiction in general, is to reveal through story thruths about the human condition.

now, other stories have chosen to invent aliens as one tool to reveal truth of the human condition, in a sense expanding the idea that not only are all genders, races, and ages of humans beings fundamentally alike, and therefore all intelligent life forms must also share these fundamental truths.

i find this foolish, personally. science fiction is allowed one great leap of imagination and then must constrain itself within its own universal rules. usually scifi claims to be based on science. ok. a future, obeying all the laws of science.

we may not be alone in the unverse. given. what are the chances these others will be bipedal. have two eyes. breathe air, no! breathe at all? close to none, in my opinion.

this leads to "aliens" being makeup-heavy metaphors for peoples we are actually already familiar with. this is a shame. romulans aren't the japanese from world war 2 nor should they ever have been. the klingons aren't the russians from the cold war nor african americans of today nor should they ever have substituted for them. it's false. jar jar binks should never have been made into a jamaican. it's superficial. it's cliche. it's not "true".

a firefly universe with no aliens is a truth. both within its own fictional framework, and the truth that is communicated to the audience through story.

i, personally, don't choose to relate to the green, voluptious alien macking on captain kirk. i do relate to human beings circumventing authority, trying to make a living, falling in and out of love, battling mental illness, trying to keep secrets, etc.

maybe that's me. you like aliens. good thing for you you have plenty of other choices in today's world saturated with fiction of all kinds, including the science variety.

a wise man once told me, through a device in my living room, that the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. amen, brother.

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Friday, May 28, 2004 3:52 PM

DELIA

All I have to say is that when Joss, in his infinite wisdom, sees fit to give us a "new" show, (and when some network is run by people with even a little bit of wisdom who see fit to actually air it), I suspect quite strongly that it will have none of these characters in it. That it will not be set on a space ship. That it will not be a watered-down redo of Firefly, but something new and different and wonderful, that none of us can begin to predict, and that we will embrace none the less, as we have with Firefly, Buffy, and Angel. Because if there is one thing I have learned from a collective 12 1/2 seasons of Joss TV, it's that I'm never going to be able to guess what he'll come up with next.

Equally, I believe that when Firefly returns to us, in the BDM and beyond, that it will still have Zoe and Wash, Book, Inara, Simon and River, Kaylee, Jayne and Mal. And that there will be no aliens, bovine or otherwise.

BTW, Shiksa, I love your description of "Reality" TV.

Delia

___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER: Please, she-- Really?
ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.

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Friday, May 28, 2004 4:29 PM

RKLENSETH

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I always thought the worms in Dune were native to Arrakis. Since you've read the book in more detail, tell me about how the worms came to be. I'd be fascinated to learn of it. Was it a terraforming effort gone awry? "These worms will help make rich topsoil... OH MY GOD!!!"

--Ant

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

You have to read the books after the original. There are quite a few. I'm not sure if they mention anything about the past that leads up to Dune in the original. Its been a long time since I read it. But the Dune books afterwards go into more detail about the universe that Dune is set in.

But I believe it has something to do with the spice that makes the worms what they are and that help the spice reach the top of the soil and it was later found out that spice has these special properties. I'll have to read up on it again. Give me a few days.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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