Would a New Firefly/Serenity Work With Only Seven Crew-Members? by Schism

It's not like the other crew members wouldn't be an important part of their lives, even if they're gone. Way I see it, it's still nine crew, always.

Although River as pilot... It works for now, so long as Mal can keep an eye on her if she starts having any trouble. And it gives her focus and a feeling of being important, useful. Long term it might help her be better, but if not, they really need a professional. River might be good at the astronavigation, but I don't see her having the natural talent Wash has as a pilot in atmo and with maneuvers.

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Saturday, February 14, 2009 5:04 PM

If they simply made do without Wash, it would be an insult to his memory and his abilities.

If they replaced him with another pilot, even if he was likeable, it would seem cold.

I like River as a pilot. Sure she's not trained, nor second in her class from pilot school (wash was technically first, but Mr. Universe cheated him out of that), but she simply knows things, and that's a good enough plot lead to get her in there. Perhaps give her a shakey start, but her intuitive nature helps her get the hang of it.

Again, putting another shepherd in would be too convenient. So i would not even try to copy his characteristics. Just another crew member with a unique set of skills and characteristics.

And someone somewhere mentioned occaisional run-ins with the Operative. The man deposed, setting up some sort of life for himself, would be interesting. Maybe not an ally. Maybe not a foe. Something interestingly and complicatedly in-between the two. Like a man with a religious experience hell-bent on cleansing a planet of evil and uniting (and converting) it's people.

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 1:13 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

from my POV, you'd need to replace Book-- you need somebody to voice the moral themes.

Not necessarily. If Inara stayed and didn't continue to be a Companion, she could fill that role.

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

But you need somebody to step up as the smart Plucky Comic Relief.

I completely disagree. There's enough comedy produced by the other crew members that this isn't necessary. Not to mention the fact that any Wash replacement will feel artificial. It would really work against the show/movie if they tried to do that as every time a comment would be made, it'd be compared to something Wash did/said and it'd always fall short.

That being said, they could turn up Mal's level of funny (in various ways that makes sense for the character). I'm sure Nathan would appreciate it and it'd make sense for Mal if Inara stayed on board and something, anything started between them. There'd be less tension between them and that new relationship could be a nice place to put some funny and other types of tension in so that things change but don't at the same time.

It's just a new balance would have to be achieved in that and that takes a fine touch to do. It'd take some time to develop though. Not that that would be a bad thing.

That being said, I'd really like to not see that explored. That is, if the movie was any indication, they'd be even more off and it just wouldn't be pretty.

Still, an interesting thought experiment.

EDIT: I don't see River as the new pilot. After all, her stability is still questionable. Having someone at the helm in that state isn't exactly a reasonable thing. So, yah, a new pilot would be necessary. But, someone possible in a dual role on the ship? Don't know what else though.

EDIT 2: Having someone else as pilot might be perceived as "cold." But, that could be worked with. And if done right, could produce some interesting story-lines, etc. So, it could be of overall benefit to the show.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 2:47 AM

INSTANTKARMAGIRL

Not that anyone could replace Wash, but I think a professional pilot would need to be found.

River, while better after Miranda, might get too focused on one thing and the Captain would wake up to the proximity alarm going off as they nearly crashed into an Alliance cruiser...

I don't think the pilot needs to be Wash-like.

While I love Book and the role he filled, I don't think he needs to be "replaced" to cheapen his character.

I agree the Inara could take his place as the moral guide of the crew. She is a woman of stature, brought up on the Core, who does like to bring up right and wrong from time to time.

I think River having a function on the ship would be good for her, but I think her going on jobs and acting as a sensory guide is probably the best one for her.

Perhaps they add someone else besides a pilot to round out the cast...who would they need though...especially if this person were to get a cut of the pay?

Perhaps another Merc? Maybe Saffron, that would be hilarious! But no....

I can't rightly think what they would be missing after the addition of a pilot.

Maybe rotating characters who know of their activity but just need safe passage from here to there from time to time? Then you can have several "new faces" that aren't there all the time.

~**~
"How come you're flying about with us brigands? I mean, shouldn't you be off bringing religiosity to the Fuzzie-Wuzzies or some such?"~Cap'n Mal

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:07 AM

ADS

Bloody oath there should be new crew members, eventually.

In a series Joss was always going introduce and kill off characters, even important ones eventually. That's why I like him so much. He makes you fall in love with a character and then kills them in a way that both suprises you and affects you emotionally.

Maybe not Wash or Book, maybe not at that time or place in the story, but if the series had of continued as it should have then some crew would have died and new characters would have been woven into the show and opened up new possibilites of character interaction as well as story direction.

The movie is a different story because you are allot more limited when it comes to having the time to introduce a new character, defining his/her/its place in the crew as well as weave the character meaningfully into the story.

Personally I would love to see new characters in a series but in a movie I would just prefer that they concentrate on the characters that have already been defined and we already love. A series of movies, well thats a different story :)

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:26 AM

Just because we lost two characters, doesn't mean we have to bring in two new characters.

The universe does not balance itself out so accurately.

The only prime function left vacant that's required is a pilot. I like the idea of River as a pilot because now that she's less of a mystery, she needs a function. Not to say she's all better, but she's better-ish. So in that respect they could say they don't need anyone else.

However, the idea of a new pilot is an option. yes, as I said, it would seem cold, but yes, as someone else said, that could help explore new storylines - like Zoe automatically not liking the new pilot.

How about a former Alliance pilot?
Would Mal EVER trust him?

How about another fugitive turned pilot?
Have we over-done it on the fugitive harbouring?

How about a male companion (boy whores, how thoughtful) who wanted to leave the guild and be a pilot?
Do we have enough sexual philosophy on the ship enough with Inara?

How about a recent graduate from pilot school who has NO idea that he's now working for a thoroughly illegal operation and is a bit too naive to realize?

.....yeah that could work. He could provide a new kind of comic releif....because he doesn't realize that he IS being funny.

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:35 AM

MAKINGVISIBLE

Not that two new characters would be NEEDED, but they may help provide a new, long-term story arc, as the previous one - the truth about RIver - has been wrapped up.

I realize there's the whole "Shepherd's Tale" comic in the works with Book's back story, but I always thought that if Firefly were brought back, a cool thing to do would be to add a character of someone who turned out to be Book's son, or Book's partner or something. They could tell the Book story that way and maybe reveal that the crew is/was more tied to Book than we all thought. Could be an interesting arc.

Also, if there were a new pilot, I'd like to see someone of Chinese descent. I agree with the the common criticism of "If this whole culture is half european, half asian, where are all the asians?" I also think this would round out the crew nicely.

Not that I have given it any thought or anything! ;)

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Monday, February 16, 2009 5:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

In a series Joss was always going introduce and kill off characters, even important ones eventually. That's why I like him so much. He makes you fall in love with a character and then kills them in a way that both surprises you and affects you emotionally.

The love of killing fictional characters seems to be the predominate theme of this thread. It is my LEAST favorite Joss Whedon attribute.

So I break out my tired old series continuation from my viewpoint:

In my mind, until a film or series continuation says different, the crew put Wash in River's cryo-box to take him home for burial. Along the way, they are informed by Simon that the same medical tech that produced Tracy's hopped up internal organs ("million credit meat" in Tracy's words) are accessible at Government research facilities. Using a bit of improvisation and Book's ident card, they sneak Wash in place of a politico who bumped a deserving recipient (ala PA's governor Casey who bumped everybody down the list for his transplant). Alliance bashing, witty dialog and some gunplay ensues. The Firefly 'verse returns to normal.

I will miss Book but his death was a more acceptable fit than Wash's.
One: Books death was important to the storyline and character development because Book was the catalyst to Mal regaining a little bit of his "rudder". Book's casual murder by the Operative and his dying wish, nay, DEMAND that Mall "believe" again made Mal and crew confront River's Miranda secret, rather than just run. Wash was sacrificed meaninglessly as a plot gimmick to create peril.

Two: Book was an individual who interacted with the crew but Wash was half of a married couple who as such made up an important ingredient of Firefly's unique-ness. To destroy that couple as a plot device is a cheap shot at all those who reveled in a mature, married couple as part of the cast ensemble. Which ties into,

Three: Book is a more easily replaced character. If another character with deep-seated religious beliefs were to join Serenity, (not a Shepherd but perhaps a person who wouldn't be stereotypically devout, say a blue-collar industrial worker who knows why he trusts in his Christian faith) the conscience-character would not replace Book but add to his legacy.
But if some "guy" just jumped into Zoe's heart and bed, it would be creepy and an insult to both Wash and Zoe.

Four: Also, Book's mysterious past could be explored in flashback, which would keep actor Ron Glass involved in the series without quite the level of sadness that showing widow Zoe's dead husband would cause. Wash is the "funny" character and there is little funny about being reminded of his death.

The dynamic has been needlessly shifted from all the things Firefly used to be about (do the job, keep flying, found family) to life without Wash. Mal has no pilot (and making River skilled at Wash's level is a farce of a fiction if ever there was one), Zoe has no husband, Simon has no friend and advocate, Jayne has no light-hearted counter-point and the ship has no smart-assed comic relief.
Book's role is replaceable, Wash is NOT.

Also, Wash being saved by Simon adds exciting new dramatic tension for the characters. Zoe would now "owe" loyalty to two people; Mal for saving her and Simon for saving Wash. A viable plot/character development would be her journey to her not owing anybody, which would strengthen her relationship with her husband, Wash. ("What this marriage needs is one less husband") And Mal would have less of a subordinate and more of a partner. And Zoe would be an even stronger female character; but dramatically MADE stronger thru growth, not contrivance.

I LOVE the potential storylines and character development that grow out of Wash being saved. I am disheartened and depressed at the downward spiral that is inevitable if Wash is removed from the Firefly equation.

I don't think at the end of Serenity that River is truly "cured". Functioning with more clarity, perhaps, but still working with surgically created psychosis and abilities. I see dramatic potential in the crew relying TOO much on River's insight and her mis-interpretation getting them into trouble. I also see the government pardoning her and Simon in the wake of the Miranda revelation. Their attempts to re-enter society would surely be rocky. Simon is a doctor accused of multiple criminal offenses and River is akin to a psychologically damaged Special Forces soldier returning from too many tours of Vietnam. Especially for River, trying to find her place in the "real" world would be a great way to explore the obstacles that face unusual people (Geeks?) trying to fit in with regular folk (Mundanes?).

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Monday, February 16, 2009 8:36 AM

INSTANTKARMAGIRL

All really good points.

I do think that Book was more expendable than Wash.

So at the end of Serenity, do you think they didn't bury bodies, they just lit memorials for their fallen commrades? Yes, that makes more sense, considering that they most likely did NOT go back for Book's body, possibly having buried him on Haven as they were strapping other people's body to the ship.

I agree that bringing Wash back in such a fashion is not only doable in the Sci-Fi 'Verse of Firefly, but also would lead to quite a lot of dramatic impact.

Would he be the same? Being dead probably has an affect on someone (Buffy died for a whole summer...). I mean, I can see him regaining some of his humor, but he would be a changed man, perhaps a little sharper and jaded when it came right down to it. So while we got Wash back, he would be a forever-changed-version of Wash...which wouldn't be a bad thing.

As far as replacing Book, I don't think they would need to. I think that after Miranda, the crew has a pretty good moral compass all on their own...some will always have more than others.

As for River, She's not "Sane" and I don't think she'll ever been sane. I've never understood why Miranda would be the last of it. The Alliance didn't fill her head with other horrible secrets? Why just stop with Miranda? Not to mention the fact that if Miranda ate River up inside, imagine what knowing the the Academy is still in operation is doing to her. There are other kids out there going through the same thing as she did.

Plus, with out a touch of the crazies, is River even that interesting? Yeah, she's got dancer's feet, and has an interesting point of view, but if she wasn't pickin' up guns, thinkin' they were sticks or cutting on poor lil Jayne or talking about strange things, would she be appealing?

Her brain is missing parts. New connections can be made, but she'll always be off.

I don't ever see Simon or River going back to "society," not after what they've seen and experienced. Besides, they have true connections with the people on Serenity.

Simon is a doctor who wants to help people. I think he would feel guilty going back to a surgical practice making big bucks while his friends are getting shot at and possibly dying.

Could you imagine the wave he'd get with Mal telling him that lil Kaylee got hit and no one was there to save her. Because before Simon, I'm sure they got on okay patching up where they could, but a bullet in the belly and a bullet grazing your shoulder are two completely different things.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

Done, now.

~**~
"How come you're flying about with us brigands? I mean, shouldn't you be off bringing religiosity to the Fuzzie-Wuzzies or some such?"~Cap'n Mal

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Monday, February 16, 2009 8:49 AM

Book's secrets are going to catch up to them; unfortunately, I think his being dead is necessary for that to catch them by surprise. I think his memory will continue to have a big impact on the crew, though, and he'll live on in a lot of ways.

But I hope they do pull some unexpected plot twist to bring Wash back. He's a good candidate for that, he was the guy without a secretive past or a whole lot of troubles. Some chilling Alliance intervention or maybe somehow the crew's own efforts (which would then get the Alliance's attention) would allow Wash's character to develop when it really didn't have much of anywhere to go before.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 8:55 AM

I appreciate your points, esp. Wash and River observations.

Wash would still be sarcastic, but with a bit more "bite" in his humor.
The Wash/ Zoe discussions on whether or not to have a child would amp up a notch.
The whole "how long can we stay in the crime business" discussion would get more intense.
Mal and Wash have both been killed.
Mal brought back by Niska's torturer; in my scenario, Wash by Simon, who is the only reason Kaylee isn't dead after getting shot by Dobson.
Book is gone, killed by the Alliance.
"Zoe, honey, I think we need a new line of work."

I think River and Simon would travel with the crew a while longer, but they would end up settling on the Rim somewhere.
Simon would be able to really help in a Rim world hospital, esp. if a general practitioner was all they had. River could grow and heal, away from hi-tech intrusions.

Really that is the appropriate end for Firefly as I see it.
The crew sort of dissolves over the last few episodes, settling down on different worlds, losing touch with one-another.
Sorta sad, seeing the found-family break up;
but not TRAGIC and depressing.
More like real life when people leave a job and lose touch with co-workers they considered friends.

Mike

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Monday, February 16, 2009 9:32 AM

I think that the show would work with seven characters, especially when you look at Gilligan's Island which only had seven characters who each represented one of the seven deadly sins. I don't think the show would work anymore though, no matter how many crew members returned because on Youtube I saw an interview with Joss in Australia where he said the television series would no longer work because the necessary elements are no longer there. Joss did not say that there is no future television show about Serenity or set in the Serenity 'verse, but said it would not be the same show as was cancelled, and that the show would have to be somehow derivative of the first series.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 10:15 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

River is highly talented, she would be pilot.
Simon would be freed up now that River is improving. He could provide much comic relief - geek jokes galore.
Inara can now provide moral compass - she helped give it to Book in Pilot.
Reavers and Alliance still provide antagonists and friction, even without Hands of Blue or Operative. Maybe the BDHs will run across or track down the "antidote" for reaverness.
Other new, temp passengers could provide some excitement - remember several episodes barely touched upon Simon/River fugitive status.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 10:41 PM

I think if it went on it is possible that Saffron could join the crew, even though I cannot figure out what it would take to get Mal to accept her. I don't know what she would provide for the crew but for the show she would provide a new element where Jayne would still be the brunt of jokes but he would no longer be the dark horse who might turn in the Tams to the authorities. I suppose Saffron could try to involve the crew either in another heist, or maybe some other mission of special interest to her and the crew, secretly hoping to join Serenity because the idea of belonging to a crew where others actually look out for and do for one another intrigued her during her jail time. I think during the show that Saffron wouldn’t do anything to compromise the crew, but she would still be perceived by the others as a threat, and she wouldn’t be exactly a saint either which would fuel the other’s suspicions.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:47 AM

I have to say, stepping back a few posts, that I would probably stop watching a new series or movie if they miraculously brought Wash back to life.

One of the reasons I like Firefly when I normally don't like sci-fi is that it takes a realistic approach (given, of course, the variables of uninvented technology).

Wash is dead.

Joss killed him for a reason - impact.

There's no impact in bringing him back.

There's impact in him being dead.

Death is like that - you don't expect it, you wish it didn't happen, you theorize ways to undo it, but ultimately it is what it is and you need to learn to deal with it.

Don't cheapen the event with a Marvel Comics-esque back-from-the-dead story.

He was one of my favourite characters.

I can't imagine the series without him.

But he's gone.

Joss has made us hard-core fans experience death, in a fashion. Don't cheapen it with dreams of bad science fiction.

;p

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:16 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I could easily see it with just seven crew members. We only had seven for most of the movie anyway with Book settled on Haven and Inara off ship at the Companion House.

I don't see why River, being the genius she is, could not assume the pilot role moving forward. Sure she doesn't have Wash's experience, but she is intelligent, intuitive, and seems to have developed an affinity for Serenity surpassed only by Kaylee's.

Fewer characters would give the writers more time to explore the remaining crew as well.

__________________________________________
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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:25 AM

The fact that there was only seven of the crew on board Serenity for most of the movie does not alter the dynamics that there were all nine characters involved in the movie. If a Serenity 2 ever came out they would have to find at least one more crew member to fill the void of Wash's character. In my opinion Joss would have to bring back Ron Glass in a Serenity 2 movie because his character had so much intrigue that an entire movie could be shown with just his past, and his past has to be explained. Lots of great rock songs have three or four instruments in them, but in some the most dramatic use of an instrument is to not use it. I heard an AC/DC song live version once on the radio where if I remember it correctly was a little drumming in the beginning and maybe some at the end, but through the other parts of the song the drum was noticeably absent. I thought the song rocked just as it was, and a few days later I was listening to another rock radio station when another rock musician from a different band said that the drummer for AC/DC was one of the best drummers of all time because he not only knew how to play his drums but more importantly he knew when not to. I believe Joss most effectively used his characters in the movie Serenity by not having Inara and Book in certain parts of the movie, and for killing off Book and Wash for effect.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:
I have to say, stepping back a few posts, that I would probably stop watching a new series or movie if they miraculously brought Wash back to life.

One of the reasons I like Firefly when I normally don't like sci-fi is that it takes a realistic approach (given, of course, the variables of uninvented technology).

Don't cheapen it with dreams of bad science fiction.

;p

Just to ask a silly question: do you think the U.S. Navy could support a nuclear-powered submarine by selling energy bars? Even if they were salvaged?
Maybe if they smuggled some cattle, too.
And yet, here we stand, Browncoats happily buying into the premise that a nuclear powered spaceship is paid for and maintained just like that. Author, Orsen Card Scott, said that Firefly was the most realistic SF show out there. But, I think really the realism was in part realistic characters reacting realistically in an often not quite real world. The idea that a single person can keep up after the maintenance on a space-going vessel, especially an old one prone to breaking is unrealistic in the highest order, even in projecting future developments from where we are now.

If Firefly were truly realistic, every one of the crew would be in jail or dead. The success of their criminal enterprises, and the fact that they never hurt or kill innocent people while committing crime is far more "Unrealistic" than Wash living through Serenity.

Also, this is a crew of identified "cop-killers".
In Ariel they broke into a highly secure core-world Alliance medical facility and stole a bunch of medicine.
Mal, Zoe, and Wash were almost certainly caught on camera and identified.
Jayne, Simon and River were actually apprehended.
Jayne personally killed one of the Alliance Feds and I'm sure the half dozen other cops' deaths were hung on the Serenity crew, not on duly authorized, Blue Hands, Alliance officers.

Think in Trash; when Saffron was hauled out of the trash container and the priceless Lassiter was gone, do you think she said "I don't know WHAT happened"?
Or do you think it is more likely she identified every one of Serenity's crew as having stolen a priceless artifact from a high-ranking, obviously wealthy Alliance officer?!

Think the 'verse is realistic far as people coming back from horrendous wounds in the 'verse? Jayne got a 3/4 inch diameter spear through the calf and was walking
around on it.

But the ALL-TIME-WINNER?

Has to be Dobson,
He got shot in the head with a pistol that Mal used to
DROP A HORSE IN IT'S TRACKS!
And Joss brought him back in the comic book.

So don't be givin' me this baloney that it's too unrealistic to bring
Wash back!

If we are going to pick and choose our un-realistic-ness, lets pick and choose what makes for the most entertaining story. I stand by my point that Wash's death didn't make the story any better, and that pretending to be "real" in such an "unrealistic" (but very fun) scenario isn't a benefit.

Mike

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:41 AM

INSTANTKARMAGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
Quote:

Don't cheapen it with dreams of bad science fiction.

;p

Just to ask a silly question: do you think the U.S. Navy could support a nuclear-powered submarine by selling energy bars? Even if they were salvaged?
Maybe if they smuggled some cattle, too.
And yet, here we stand, Browncoats happily buying into the premise that a nuclear powered spaceship is paid for and maintained just like that.

I enjoyed this post, quite a bit. As fans of ANY show that walks the line of Sci-Fi, we have to engage our Willing Suspension of Disbelief. Hell, even shows like House and Grey's Anatomy, of which I've only seen a few episodes, whole and bits, require the viewer to accept the unrealistic. Sitcoms do the same with annoying out of shape men scoring super model wives.

So, while I don't know that bringing back Wash would be the RIGHT thing to do or if Joss would want to do that, I don't think it cheapens the death (Buffy died twice and as an avid BtVS fan, each time was meaningful and each time changed her and the playing field) nor would I call it "Bad Sci-fi" and if entrusted to Joss and team, I would doubt that it would come out anything less than wonderfully written and extremely moving.

But the show is gone. And we, as Browncoats, are left with our thoughts.

And I think someone wanting Wash back is a valid thought, just as all the fanfic hosted on this site is valid. If something isn't your cup of tea, that's cool. Doesn't mean that it's outside the realm of possibility inside a universe with established rules that are outside the realm of "realistic" possibility.

That's why Sci-Fi is so popular.

~**~
"How come you're flying about with us brigands? I mean, shouldn't you be off bringing religiosity to the Fuzzie-Wuzzies or some such?"~Cap'n Mal

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:51 AM

And he was shot in his ONE REMAINING EYE like five minutes after he showed up again. That was PRICELESS. I love that scene.

Unrealistic ain't all bad, sometimes. XD

As for the upkeep and maintenance of Serenity the prices of fuel and parts right now would make it unfeasible, but we're led to understand that space travel has become a mite more affordable 400 years from now. With 70 different inhabitable planets and moons in the verse, the people probably have a lot more access to the resources necessary to produce those parts and fuel. I get the impression the spaceship industry is kind of like the ocean nowadays. Sure, you get the rich people with their yachts, and you get the very impressive military ships, But you also get the dirt cheap, somewhat poorly maintained ships with small crews. Like fishing boats. Normally, using this same analogy, a big corporate frieghtor would be more likely to replace a small business transport like Serenity... But we're given to understand that that's more in the Core, and on the border worlds and rim people aren't able to afford shipments like that, or even service those freightors.

Good point on their criminal record though.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:
I have to say, stepping back a few posts, that I would probably stop watching a new series or movie if they miraculously brought Wash back to life.

One of the reasons I like Firefly when I normally don't like sci-fi is that it takes a realistic approach (given, of course, the variables of uninvented technology).

Don't cheapen it with dreams of bad science fiction.

;p

Nobody ever said that Serenity was a nuclear ship, and that is just your lack of imagination which labels it so. I honestly think that Serenity probably runs on Hydrogen Anti-Matter which at this time in reality is very difficult to make, but it could be easy in the future to make and the scale of economy could make the hydrogen anti-matter cheap enough. I think it was addressed in the show that a heard of cattle was a very expensive commodity in the ‘verse. BTW if Serenity were a nuclear ship that would actually mean that the ship wouldn’t need refueling but about every thirty years, sort of like our nuclear carriers. If the ship were a nuclear fusion ship it would be even cheaper to fuel.

Just to ask a silly question: do you think the U.S. Navy could support a nuclear-powered submarine by selling energy bars? Even if they were salvaged?
Maybe if they smuggled some cattle, too.
And yet, here we stand, Browncoats happily buying into the premise that a nuclear powered spaceship is paid for and maintained just like that. Author, Orsen Card Scott, said that Firefly was the most realistic SF show out there. But, I think really the realism was in part realistic characters reacting realistically in an often not quite real world. The idea that a single person can keep up after the maintenance on a space-going vessel, especially an old one prone to breaking is unrealistic in the highest order, even in projecting future developments from where we are now.

If Firefly were truly realistic, every one of the crew would be in jail or dead. The success of their criminal enterprises, and the fact that they never hurt or kill innocent people while committing crime is far more "Unrealistic" than Wash living through Serenity.

Also, this is a crew of identified "cop-killers".
In Ariel they broke into a highly secure core-world Alliance medical facility and stole a bunch of medicine.
Mal, Zoe, and Wash were almost certainly caught on camera and identified.
Jayne, Simon and River were actually apprehended.
Jayne personally killed one of the Alliance Feds and I'm sure the half dozen other cops' deaths were hung on the Serenity crew, not on duly authorized, Blue Hands, Alliance officers.

Think in Trash; when Saffron was hauled out of the trash container and the priceless Lassiter was gone, do you think she said "I don't know WHAT happened"?
Or do you think it is more likely she identified every one of Serenity's crew as having stolen a priceless artifact from a high-ranking, obviously wealthy Alliance officer?!

Think the 'verse is realistic far as people coming back from horrendous wounds in the 'verse? Jayne got a 3/4 inch diameter spear through the calf and was walking
around on it.

But the ALL-TIME-WINNER?

Has to be Dobson,
He got shot in the head with a pistol that Mal used to
DROP A HORSE IN IT'S TRACKS!
And Joss brought him back in the comic book.

So don't be givin' me this baloney that it's too unrealistic to bring
Wash back!

If we are going to pick and choose our un-realistic-ness, lets pick and choose what makes for the most entertaining story. I stand by my point that Wash's death didn't make the story any better, and that pretending to be "real" in such an "unrealistic" (but very fun) scenario isn't a benefit.

Mike

Nobody ever said that Serenity was a nuclear ship, and that is just your lack of imagination which labels it so. I honestly think that Serenity probably runs on Hydrogen Anti-Matter which at this time in reality is very difficult to make, but it could be easy in the future to make and the scale of economy could make the hydrogen anti-matter cheap enough. I think it was addressed in the show that a heard of cattle was a very expensive commodity in the ‘verse. BTW if Serenity were a nuclear ship that would actually mean that the ship wouldn’t need refueling but about every thirty years, sort of like our nuclear carriers. If the ship were a nuclear fusion ship it would be even cheaper to fuel.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:16 AM

From what I remember reading (and this is from the Serenity RP manual, which I understand some people don't consider canon), Serenity's engines have three essential components. She has a fusion engine, which is what lights up when she fires, and which if the core containment is not properly maintained can leak radiation (Reaver ships). She has an electric engine which I think might draw power from the fusion engine and a hydraulic system associated with it, which I think in turn runs the electrical systems and possibly the vertical take off and landing engines on her wings. And she has an anti-gravity system which can be used to move somehow and which also helps make things nice and non-fatal for the crew. Algae (gas exchange) based life support is also built into the engine and apparently recieves power from it in some way, but is not a component of engine function.

I'll check my book when I get home for any mistakes and for more specific information.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:39 AM

The technology side of things I won't get into realistic or unrealistic, cos who knows where we'll stand in 50 years time, given the technology explosion of the last, hell, TEN years.

Point in case (or is that case in point?), I was watching an episode of Star Trek TNG (no, i'm not a trekkie, i was just bored), and the captian was with some chick and they were playing instruments. The captian had a whistle or something lame, and the woman he was with unrolled a keyboard. It was rolled up like a long narrow blanket, but once unrolled, it played like a keyboard.

My mum, walking by at the time, said "oh how unrealistic is that??".

That was in '94 or thereabouts.

Skip forward to '08, there was one in the Sears Wishbook and I almost bought it for my daughter for Christmas.

;p

A 'nuclear' ship that can be patched up to run through space may not be realistic, or could be plausible in 100 years. It's not the validity of the unknown that i call unrealistic, but rather those unknowns in the real world (like light-speed, for example).

Anyway, my point is, bringing someone back from the dead is not realistic. If we found a technology for that then the world/universe would be in trouble, the population boom would be impossible to control, and the moral implications of knowing one's time would be...well...quite interesting really.

Let the dead rest.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
From what I remember reading (and this is from the Serenity RP manual, which I understand some people don't consider canon), Serenity's engines have three essential components. She has a fusion engine, which is what lights up when she fires, and which if the core containment is not properly maintained can leak radiation (Reaver ships). She has an electric engine which I think might draw power from the fusion engine and a hydraulic system, which I think in turn runs the electrical systems and possibly the vertical take off and landing engines on her wings. And she has an anti-gravity system which can be used to move somehow and which also helps make things nice and non-fatal for the crew. Algae (gas exchange) based life support is also built into the engine and apparently recieves power from it in some way, but is not a component of engine function.

I'll check my book when I get home for any mistakes and for more specific information.

I could see a fusion engine being used, which would be very easy to get fuel for, even if one wasn't near civilization, because all you would need to do is gather up hydrogen from either water or atmosphere. If an anti matter engine were used it would be trickier but not impossible to get fuel from the wilds because if in the future the making of anti-matter was easier the crew could probably be able to convert their hydrogen fuel into hydrogen anti-matter fuel.

I am familiar with a bussard fusion engine and have always wondered how it would propel a starship forward. I imagined it would probably provide energy to another type of engine which would take that power and convert it to some form of propulsion like maybe a rocket or maybe something else. What do you guys think?

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:49 AM

Schism: That's one of the reasons that'd be an interesting storyline for Wash. The Alliance would want to control any mechanism by which people can be brought back to life.

I honestly think one of the reasons Joss killed Wash off is because he doesn't HAVE any deep scary backstory or secrets, apart from the POW doing shadow puppet plays idea that Alan suggested.

Rallem: good point about the actual PUSH for Serenity. Unless they're actually releasing the super-heated plasma to give them forward propulsion in a controlled fusion reaction, they can't go anywhere. That might be one of the things I'm not remembering.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:
The technology side of things I won't get into realistic or unrealistic, cos who knows where we'll stand in 50 years time, given the technology explosion of the last, hell, TEN years.

Point in case (or is that case in point?), I was watching an episode of Star Trek TNG (no, i'm not a trekkie, i was just bored), and the captian was with some chick and they were playing instruments. The captian had a whistle or something lame, and the woman he was with unrolled a keyboard. It was rolled up like a long narrow blanket, but once unrolled, it played like a keyboard.

My mum, walking by at the time, said "oh how unrealistic is that??".

That was in '94 or thereabouts.

Skip forward to '08, there was one in the Sears Wishbook and I almost bought it for my daughter for Christmas.

;p

A 'nuclear' ship that can be patched up to run through space may not be realistic, or could be plausible in 100 years. It's not the validity of the unknown that i call unrealistic, but rather those unknowns in the real world (like light-speed, for example).

Anyway, my point is, bringing someone back from the dead is not realistic. If we found a technology for that then the world/universe would be in trouble, the population boom would be impossible to control, and the moral implications of knowing one's time would be...well...quite interesting really.

Let the dead rest.

I know in the 'verse Joss said that the light barrier hadn't been broken and no ships can travel as fast as light. I know this begs the question how did mankind get to another galaxy without light travel, but he answered that question by saying something to the effect that it doesn't really matter, and let it go.

I don’t remember the episode you were talking about where Piccard was playing the tin whistle with a woman exactly, but I do remember him crawling into a Jeffries tube to play with that woman, and I do remember the episode where he got that whistle.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 1:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
Nobody ever said that Serenity was a nuclear ship, and that is just your lack of imagination which labels it so. I honestly think that Serenity probably runs on Hydrogen Anti-Matter...

Its not my lack of imagination, but my interpretation of my licensed Serenity blueprints, that leads me to believe that Serenity is nuclear powered.
But that's not what the thread is about.
You are trying to undermine my reasoning

Quote:
"your lack of imagination"

on the point on whether the crew dynamic is better with or without Wash. I'll accept that some folks prefer the darker turn in storytelling of killing characters, but I stand by my assertion that in an already unreal world, better storytelling is more important than audience manipulation.

A discussion of the nuts and bolts of the reality of Firefly/Serenity tech is a whole 'nother thread topic. I only mentioned it as an example/point as to why keeping Wash in the crew dynamic (7 vs. 9) was a reasonable thing within the reality of the 'verse.

And hydrogen anti-matter...were'd THAT come from?
Neither the dialog, production notes nor the officially released info alludes in any way to that.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 1:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
Nobody ever said that Serenity was a nuclear ship, and that is just your lack of imagination which labels it so. I honestly think that Serenity probably runs on Hydrogen Anti-Matter...

Its not my lack of imagination, but my interpretation of my licensed Serenity blueprints, that leads me to believe that Serenity is nuclear powered.
But that's not what the thread is about.
You are trying to undermine my reasoning
Quote:
"your lack of imagination"
on the point on whether the crew dynamic is better with or without Wash. I'll accept that some folks prefer the darker turn in storytelling of killing characters, but I stand by my assertion that in an already unreal world, better storytelling is more important than audience manipulation.

A discussion of the nuts and bolts of the reality of Firefly/Serenity tech is a whole 'nother thread topic. I only mentioned it as an example/point as to why keeping Wash in the crew dynamic (7 vs. 9) was a reasonable thing within the reality of the 'verse.

And hydrogen anti-matter...were'd THAT come from?
Neither the dialog, production notes nor the officially released info alludes in any way to that.

You're right and I apologize for my confrontational stance earlier.

"Mid-bulk Transport. Standard radian accelerator core class code 03-K64, Firefly.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:33 PM

Neat.
Yeah, this was all getting rather confrontational.
Now that we're all friends again, we can get back to concentrating on the fact that you're all soulless dorks for wanting to bring Wash back from the dead!

;p

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:45 PM

I have no depth to speak of, meaningful poignant dark turns in storytelling just roll over my back like passing thunderstorms.

Let's bring back Wash! :D

(Seriously, the dude is awesome. Bring him back, pretty please, and to heck with random killing off of characters as a dark story-telling mechanism)

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:46 PM

I'm not a soulless dork who wants to bring back Wash, and am only a soulless dork who thinks his character will need to be replaced with a minor modifiaction to another member already in the crew like Jayne to keep up the dynamic of the crew.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:09 PM

Quote:
You're right and I apologize for my confrontational stance earlier.

The Browncoat community continues to impress me with the quality of folk this fandom attracts. I'd likewise apologize for any piss-y-ness in my response.

At some point these things come down to taste.
I feel betrayed by authors who kill characters for effect.
Some folks enjoy the storylines that grow out of those losses. While I understand that, I feel the original premise of the show, (the loss by the Independents to the Alliance), is enough loss and challenge to overcome for our plucky band of good-guy criminals.

Now, where was that "souless dork" post...:-)

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:
...we can get back to concentrating on the fact that you're all soulless dorks for wanting to bring Wash back from the dead!

;p

I beg to differ!
I'll admit to "geek" and my belief in my having a soul is the whole reason I can't sing along to, "I'm on a highway to hell", or "running with the devil".
But, it's your thread (shrug);
I guess you can clasify those who disagree any way you like.

Just remember, tho', Star Trek IV was the best fun Trek movie ever; and it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't brought back Spock.

Just sayin'...

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:41 PM

GORRAMITGIRL

I think a movie could be made to work.

Whether or not I want it to happen though, I'm not sure.

I know that as a writer currently exploring the idea of a Post-Miranda world for the crew, the idea of how to bring in a new character and how it would affect the crew is an interesting thing. I've seen other writers do it and it's always interesting to see how they go about making it work in regards to how they view the Firefly/Serenity 'Verse.

Usually, when a character dies, I may grieve a bit, but I eventually accept it and get over it. In my other fandoms, where other fans would be wailing over the loss of so-and-so, I would be okay with it.

I never had a problem until Serenity when Wash was killed. THEN I found it incredibly difficult to write fic with him dead. And I still do, to an extent.

But I wouldn't want him brought back in another movie, simply because if he was, I honestly doubt that Joss would keep him the same Wash that I knew and loved.

GG

"We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same."

- Carlos Casteneda

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:01 PM

STINKBUG

This is my first post.

I agree with other posters that they would need to hire a pilot. I'm sure River could handle the job when her mind is clear, but I don't think she would ever be completely stable. Also, it makes more sense to take advantage of River's abilities as a reader and a fighter on jobs rather than serving as the getaway driver.

I think Inara could serve as the character providing a moral viewpoint if she chose to remain on Serenity. She did this well in the past. I think they would have to add another character if Inara chose to go back to the training house or leave her profession and start a relationship with Mal. In the movie Serenity, the crew's situation seemed to have become more desperate. The ship was falling apart and no one had been paid in quite some time. Mal would have to take on a new tenant for Inara's old shuttle just for the coin. The directions that character could take are endless.

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Wednesday, February 18, 2009 2:46 AM

VERASAMUELS

I'd like to see an Oriental on the crew. Maybe a female Buddhist monk? She could have handy martial arts skills as well [GGG].

Pilot - a different ethnicity. I suggest Maori, bring another flavour on board.

Cliff Curtis [Whale Rider], Lawrence Makaori [Lord of the Rings] or Temuera Morrison [Star Wars - Jango Fett] are all recommended :-).

Devout Keeper of Jayne's Lunchbox

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Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
Quote:
You're right and I apologize for my confrontational stance earlier.

The Browncoat community continues to impress me with the quality of folk this fandom attracts. I'd likewise apologize for any piss-y-ness in my response.

At some point these things come down to taste.
I feel betrayed by authors who kill characters for effect.
Some folks enjoy the storylines that grow out of those losses. While I understand that, I feel the original premise of the show, (the loss by the Independents to the Alliance), is enough loss and challenge to overcome for our plucky band of good-guy criminals.

Now, where was that "souless dork" post...:-)

I understand how you could feel betrayed by the loss of a character for effect, but I think that is the author's right & responsibility to do so, and I really cannot think of another way I would want a character to be taken away.

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Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:02 AM

Hi and welcome, Stinkbug!

The only problem I can see with taking on new passengers (or really, any more crew) is that River and Simon are probably still fugitives (the Operative said their troubles wouldn't be over yet) with a 100,000+ credit price tag. And Mal's not overly known for trusting people.

But, there could be ways around that, so it's not outside the realm of possibility. And it would bring them some coin/fill in a needed role. I'm not against new characters, per se'.

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Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:55 AM

They rent the other shuttle!

Someone Mal used to know, and thus he trusts.

This guy is impressed that they're harboring fugitives.

This guy rents the shuttle for some of his own work.

What they start to realize, and what Mal tries to turn a blind eye to, is that he's using it to smuggle drugs, or some form of cargo that Serenity normally wouldn't handle.

The others don't like it because;

a) it's wrong. wronger than normal smuggling

b) it could bring MORE unwanted alliance attention.

Mal doesn't like it either, but he turns a blind out because;

a) loyalty

b) the coin he brings is just too damn good

Now THERE is a source of conflict.

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Wednesday, February 18, 2009 6:40 AM