Post your coimments about tonight's Dollhouse episode, 'The Target' by Haken

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Post your coimments about tonight's Dollhouse episode, 'The Target'

POSTED BY: HAKEN
UPDATED: Thursday, February 26, 2009 13:55
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 18172
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Friday, February 20, 2009 4:13 PM

Likes to mess with stuffs.

Post your comments about tonight's Dollhouse episode,'The Target.'

Or if you feel like posting a review, you can do it on Shiny Universe.

Here's the SU URL for tonight's episode.

http://www.shinyuniverse.net/episode.aspx?eid=69

Also, if you want to discuss the episode on SU rather than here, you can visit the Dollhouse section on Shiny Universe.

http://www.shinyuniverse.net/planet.aspx?pid=24

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Friday, February 20, 2009 4:48 PM

SCHISM

Well it's not over yet, but I gotta say, I'm liking it.

As opposed to my "i HAVE to like it cos it's Joss, the guy who did Firefly" reaction to the pilot episode.

Lot of commercials though, dontcha think?

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Friday, February 20, 2009 4:59 PM

STOWEAWAY

Hell yeah!
Tonight's episode is way better than last week's.

-------------------------------------------------
Check out http://www.americasfunniesttshirts.com for hilarious shirts at a great price.

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Friday, February 20, 2009 5:11 PM

STOWEAWAY

Oh, did you guys see Mark Sheppard?

His American accent was a little loose tonight. Or maybe it's just 'cause I know he's English.

Still, good to see him.

-------------------------------------------------
Check out http://www.americasfunniesttshirts.com for hilarious shirts at a great price.

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Friday, February 20, 2009 5:43 PM

DEWRASTLER

When I saw Mark A. Shepherd's name in the opening credits I got pretty excited. Overall, I liked the episode and where the show is going. I posted a review over on Shiny Universe if you wanna read it. Let me know what you think of it.

It's the first time I've written a review, and I didn't proofread it at all. I just put down whatever thought's I had in whatever order they came.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Friday, February 20, 2009 6:28 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
"I have four brothers, none of them Democrats."
-Echo, Dollhouse, The Target

Joss is back!

But as a Democrat, I always hunted and killed animals with my Democrat family. Lots and lots of times. We even owned a farm to hunt "wild" boar in a pen. So beware sterotypes. James Brady is a Republican, shot by George Bushes' cousin. But the joke was still funny.

The script is almost verbatim from The Most Dangerous Game, a chapter from Cathy O'Brien's autobiography, TRANCE Formation of America, referring to Dick Cheney hunting naked girls with guns in the forest, then raping them - or killing them - as part of the brainwashing of CIA sexslaves and assassins in MKULTRA.
www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/most_dangerous_game.htm
www.trance-formation.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mkultra

THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME: Israeli Mossad agent's TV documentary about Cathy O'Brien on Guerilla News Network TV

-- NSFW

Quote:
youtube comment: brunthroath6912 (2 days ago)

holy shit is that apuss on y tube!! probably the first

Cathy O'Brien and her lobotomized daughter Kelly in CIA MKULTRA brainwash program
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=cathy+obrien&hl=en

I repeat my hyposthesis, Joss is either CIA or MI6, or his writers are. The only question is, what's his game? Is he trying to deprogram Manchurian candidates, recruit Manchurian candidates, predictive program the sheeple to lay down, cashing in on insider knowledge, or tryign to awaken the sheeple from their slumber, one scifi geek at a time?

Quote:
"We need a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated. The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. This lacks historical perspective. Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain. Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electrical stimulation of the brain."
-Dr. Jose Delgado, Director of Neuropsychiatry, Yale University Medical School prof and CIA mind control scientist, Congressional Record, No 26, vol 118 February 24th, 1974

"Why not improve the brain? Perhaps in the future, we can attach a little version of Google that you plug into your brain. We'll have to develop stylish versions, but then you'll have all the world's knowledge immediately available, which is pretty exciting."
-Brin, David Vise and Mark Malseed, The Google Story, page 292

"We are not scanning all those books to be read by people. We are scanning them to be read by an A.I."
-George Dyson, conversation with his hosts at Google

Real World news from TSCC:

Experts Warn of 'Terminator'-Style Military-Robot Rebellion - FOR REAL
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,496309,00.html
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article57413
34.ece
http://ethics.calpoly.edu/ONR_report.pdf

Expert: Robots Will Fight Wars of Future
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,489226,00.html

Rapid-Fire Killer Robot Passes Flight Test
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,464846,00.html

Einstein Robot Head Dazzles Tech Conference
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,490104,00.html

Robotic Mall Cop Unveiled in Japan
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,482084,00.html

"On Earth-That-Was, the two ruling powers were once known as America and China. And pot was totally legal, though I probably won't stress that. In fact, forget I said it."
-Joss Whedon, Serenity: The Official Visual Companion, A Brief History of the Universe
circa 2507A.D.

"As far as Chinese goes, I resented it."
-Adam Tudyk, The Making of Firefly
(video censored by youtube)

"Government control of communications and transportation."
-Communist Manifesto, 6th Plank

http://piratenews.org/fox-news-owned-by-communist-china.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendi_Deng

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Friday, February 20, 2009 7:10 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

JOSS IS BACK!

100 hundred times better than last week's ep.

The humor, the story, dialogue. Give me more interaction between Echo and Langton. Tonight's ep was a homerun. Now this is the Joss we know and love. There is no way Fox can screw this up. Oh yes, I said it.

I dare Fox to move this show to another night.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Friday, February 20, 2009 7:56 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

My registration on SU did not take so, I'm psoting my review here.

This ep made so much more sense than the so-called pilot. It gave much more history about the DH, all the while continuing the story and action, which, for me, gave a much better account of how Langton came into the picture. Also where the good doctor got her scars, and that there is a madman loose among the child-like operatives in the Dollhouse.

I'm beginning to think that our man Langton will have a "Book" kind of secret in the long run. JW also gave us another, more interesting, look at Topher (I wonder if he gave this character that named because of his resemblance to Topher Grace from That 70's Show). I predict that DH will have that 5 year run after all.

More later......................

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 3:09 AM

FREELANCERTEX

teehee, Mark Sheppard was on last week's episode of Burn Notice too XD it was great. The bf couldn't understand why I fell out of my chair screaming "IT'S BADGER!!!" when I saw him.

haven't seen dollhouse yet but glad to hear it's doin' better than last week >< gotta catch up on Hulu :P

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 4:44 AM

KATESFRIEND

I liked it - a lot. I liked last week also, but this episode had flashes of brilliance in it. The reverse storytelling was good, and not as ponderous as they do it in Lost. I'm really looking forward to more.

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:42 AM

ROCKETJOCK

A lot of people seem to be rushing to judgment on this show, especially as regards the pilot episode. It seems they want the entire premise spelled out solid and direct during the first ten minutes. . .

The problem here is that they're viewing these episodes as if they were short stories, intended to be read independently of each other. Instead, they are are chapters in what Joss obviously hopes will be a long, complex, and subtle novel -- or series of novels. . . Here's hoping he gets the time to tell the first volume's worth at least.

Okay,change of subject/random speculation: What if the Dollhouse is telling the truth to their employees about Alpha being dead -- the truth so far as they know, that is.

Consider that you're dealing with technology that can record/upload/download entire personality and memory gestalts. Given a supply of blank bodies to imprint, this is effective immortality. Alpha might have seen the loss of his first body as no more hindering than dumping a hot car.

What if Alpha isn't a person -- but a pattern?

"You can't kill a Ghost." -- Echo

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:58 AM

JONGSSTRAW

They seemed to throw the kitchen sink at us last night, and it did not disappoint. I really don't understand everything that came jolting at us, but it was beautiful to watch. I'm a fan.

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 8:39 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Hey RocketJ

I appreciate what you're saying but, no I don't expect for Joss to spell out the entire premise "during the first ten minutes. . .

What I was referring to was Joss's uncanny ability to set things up so we get the character's motivation, or, at least, what drives them. I actually look forward to JW's style of storytelling which is perfect for television because his strength is episodic storytelling.

He gives you clues as to the character's story and motivation and, like a jigsaw puzzle, it is fun to figure out. This ep was more interesting because it wasn't treated like an episode of CSI:Miami (which blows chunks).

BTW, interesting theory on the Alpha character.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:32 PM

TRAVELER

The base plot of the manhunt is taken from the short story "The Most Dangerous Game" made into a film in 1932. I forgot the title, but our Embers knew it. I give Embers ten stars for knowing that one.

But the relationship between Echo and Harry Lennix is getting interesting. I think we are going to slowly learn about Caroline's and Harry's past as the series moves forward. They may never have known each other, but they are building a bound. In only the second episode Echo says to Harry, "Do you trust me?" Evidently he did. So I am going to keep an eye on Harry, because he going to go through changes alongside Echo.

Echo is proving to be very smart and also a survivor. They may have erased her memories, but the her personality is still there.

They next thing is Alpha. A lot of questions there.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:34 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

What if...

Select to view spoiler:

Echo is Alpha, or rather, Alpha is a ghost in the machine that downloads itself...

Sort of the Angel goes Evil-Then-Back-To-Good Theme?

Or rather Faith goes Deja Vu?

Eliza Dushku advert for Hulu:

Quote:
"It'll simmer your headmeat down to a bubbling brainy fondu."

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:29 PM

RALLEM

So you owned a farm to hunt wild boars in a pen? It seems like a real democrat's sport where even a democrat could hit an animal trapped in a pen.

http://www.swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:54 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:
teehee, Mark Sheppard was on last week's episode of Burn Notice too XD it was great. The bf couldn't understand why I fell out of my chair screaming "IT'S BADGER!!!" when I saw him.

haven't seen dollhouse yet but glad to hear it's doin' better than last week >< gotta catch up on Hulu :P

Right there with you, I sat up a little straighter when I saw him and was half expecting a Dyton colony/cockneyed accent.

The last thirty seconds of this episode: EXCELLENCE. Just that one gesture. So much to be drawn from that and wondered about, as tying in to the greater over all plot.

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 2:51 PM

ASARIAN

Lemme just repeat what I said in the other Dollhouse thread:

Yep, it was pretty good. :)

As expected and hoped for, round two weren't just Echo on another assigmnent: that would make our doll dull. Also, would appear Joss found a neat (and necessary) way to develop and deepen our understanding of who Echo is. The, erm, echo of River's "What am I?" seems hard to overlook.

Echo -- and I think I already mentioned this -- is very attractive. And a damn fine actress to boot (or reboot, as the case may be). Still, I hope we get to see some of other 'Actives', well, active. :) For now I'm perfectly happy with Echo, though.

From the get-so I've endeavored to think nothing but good of the show, because Joss, I believe, deserves our support on this. After all, like the man said, "Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:31 PM

LISSA

Was anybody else reminded of SlayerFest '98? And I mean that in a good way:)

Props to Steven DeKnight (writer and director). He did some great work on Angel, and looks like he will be doing the same on Dollhouse!

~lissa

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 4:18 PM

FREELANCERTEX

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
What if...

Select to view spoiler:
Echo is Alpha, or rather, Alpha is a ghost in the machine that downloads itself...

lmao, dude, are you referencing Red vs Blue there, or did you seriously just think of that on your own? XD

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 6:56 PM

SIRI

I liked this last episode better than the first one. I'm curious to see how the show develops hope it is given enough time to evolve. It seems as if clever, slightly-off kilter-make you think shows (like our Joss likes to give us) are frequently not given that time. Perhaps it's our nature to want to have it all now.

It seems as if Echo is imprinting differently than planned. There was mention made of the mistakes in attempting to program the doll/people. I did enjoy seeing Eliza kick-butt.

So I haven't read through all the threads here but was pleased to see Amy Acker on the show, too. I didn't notice her the first week (if she was there) and didn't see her photo with the main characters.

Siri

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 7:03 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
lmao, dude, are you referencing Red vs Blue there, or did you seriously just think of that on your own? XD

I felt pretty sure I was the first person to post that. I think John came up with it independently, he's a smart guy, also, he's not on the other site, where we were talking about this.

John

I don't think like angel, know, I think that this is not going to be about good and evil, but rather about human and animal. The angel thing was overly simplistic, but joss was just a kid, he wasn't thinking very sophisticated. I wish he would get back that sense of humor though.

Also, regardless of your political affiliations, that democrats line cracked me up. Maybe there is hope for humor.

My main snag here is that everything that happens in this show I can see a mile away. This was probably true on the others, but there was so much joyride. I think it needs something more.

Now we know why fred is all f^&ked up, and how she and echo, not on so well, but she'll get over it, please, can other actives do something?

We need a little cast makeover here. I think someone who can play 110 personalities is needed stat. I love Eliza, and I know she's not that girl. Summer's that girl, but she's occupied. Unless she wants to double up.

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 7:51 PM

MSA

Ok all I have to say is MUCH BETTER than the pilot. You could really feel Joss in this one:)

To love someone is to see a miracle invisible to others.
--Francois Mauriac
It's fuzzy-minded liberal thinking like that that gets you eaten.

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:09 PM

ASARIAN

Went to see the 2nd episode again tonight. For one, thhere's no getting enough of Eliza. :) And for two, I wanted to see whether I missed any clues about Alpha. And I like the Alpha as 'pattern' theory: doesn't necessarily have to be true, but can't so easily be dismissed either. But here's what I think, so far:

It's becoming clear that Echo's erasures aren't taking too well: elements from her past/previous imprints are starting to seep through while 'active' (flashes/apparitions of her former selfs in the woods), and she retains stuff (The "Shoulder to the wheel" thingy) after being erased. So, it's fair to say the whole Tabula Rasa concept -- the notion that you can wipe people completely clean -- is questionable. And I think Joss already foreshadowed that 'conclusion' in one of Echo's very first lines (Episode 1):

ECHO: "Have you ever tried and clean an actual slate? You always see what's on it before."

I felt free to take that as a hint. :)

I think Alpha is the guy we see at the end of the first episode, watching a recording of Echo. So, where does that put Echo? It stands to reason Alpha experienced similar erasure issues that went unnoticed until the unfortunate 'composite event' mishap. So, he may have bonded with Echo, in the Dollhouse, earlier, for that reason. Not only does he not kill her, he actively seems to help her (he's the one who sent Paul Ballard the photo of Echo with "Caroline" on the back. and is seen with lots of dead bodies lying around him while watching that tape of Echo). Question, of course is, where would he get his hands on a family tape Echo made? Conjecturing further, I'd say he's related to her (brother perhaps?), and that house with the TV in it, is their parents' home (with father and mother lying dead on the floor).

Of course, this is Joss we're talking about. So, I won't fall too much in love with my theory, lest I appear fully fooled. :) Which is how I like it, btw: nothing is more boring than predictability.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:27 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

We need a little cast makeover here. I think someone who can play 110 personalities is needed stat. I love Eliza, and I know she's not that girl. Summer's that girl, but she's occupied. Unless she wants to double up.

I believe Summer already made her position on that resoundingly clear, earlier:

"Stupid son of a bitch, dress me up like a gorram doll!"

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

P.S. I love Summer; really do. But, in earnest, I think Eliza really is perfect for the job. There's no ignoring her rather sizeable sex-appeal (well, it's true). And I believe she's every bit as good an actress as Summer. The girl can act, for certain! And I think she can play a 110 different personalities just fine (and I'll be watching these incarnations each time). And in many ways, especially inside the Dollhouse, I think Echo's mannerisms are rather 'Riveresque' as it is.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 9:45 PM

TUJIAOZUO

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

We need a little cast makeover here. I think someone who can play 110 personalities is needed stat. I love Eliza, and I know she's not that girl. Summer's that girl, but she's occupied. Unless she wants to double up.

I believe Summer already made her position on that resoundingly clear, earlier:

"Stupid son of a bitch, dress me up like a gorram doll!"

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

P.S. I love Summer; really do. But, in earnest, I think Eliza really is perfect for the job. There's no ignoring her rather sizeable sex-appeal (well, it's true). And I believe she's every bit as good an actress as Summer. The girl can act, for certain! And I think she can play a 110 different personalities just fine (and I'll be watching these incarnations each time). And in many ways, especially inside the Dollhouse, I think Echo's mannerisms are rather 'Riveresque' as it is.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

Agreed, Joss and Eliza hammered out this show originally, it's tailored to Eliza, and while Summer would do a great job I think Eliza is the girl for this role.

That said, I know Joss said somewhere he wasn't going to bring a lot of old Whedon alumni over to this show, but I think he needs to reconsider that. While the episode was great (so much better than the pilot, this should have been the pilot), pretty solid and feeling Jossian overall, it could benefit from a few Alumni coming in as guests as the season (and overall series) progresses. Joss has always hired strong actors, and I'm sure most of them would be be more than happy to jump into a guest star role. It was good to see Sheppard (I was like 'Badger!' Then completely dropped the fact that he was Badger and focused in on the detectives) and it got me thinking how it'd be nice to see Sean or even Morena as a Dollhouse client. Or Nicholas or Seth or Gina or Jewel any other alumni getting to help flesh out more of the DH universe.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Monday, February 23, 2009 4:41 AM

SMAUG

Well.. my stance on the first episode was "meh". While I didn't hate it, I like the overall concept of the show, it just left me a little underwhelmed.

This episode combined with the first one.. I'm liking more. While the episode still didn't blow me away or anything. I would raise it from "meh" of the first one to say that I "liked" this one. Definatly more insight into all the characters that is starting to give a better picture of what the show can be.

I liked a lot of character moments in this episode. I especially liked the roll reversal where Echo asks her handler (don't quite have everyones name down yet) if he trusts her. And I believed him when he said "with my life". I think it shows us how much they truly have 'bonded' in the time they have been together, even though we are not sure yet how long that has been.

Loved seeing Mark Sheppard show up.. hopefully he will have an ongoing part in the show.

What I mainly didn't like about this episode is the hunter guy. They just didn't give us enough information about the motivations of this guy. Yea he's a physco.. but once they figured that out and found out who he really is.. couldn't they have given us a little more info on his background so we could understand why he would would be driven to do something like this?

What we are left with is an explanation of "He did it 'just cuz'.. he's a physcopath." That's too easy of an explanation, and not enough for me to buy it. Give us at least a glimpse of his motivation.. even if it only gives a better picture of how crazy he is. Like why in the world did he think he would be able to hire an active under false pretenses and not have the dollhouse come after him with their little mini army? Did he have something to blackmail them with when they would come after him?

Here's a few other questions to ponder:

1) Are the actives simply named after the phonetic alphabet? Makes sense that they would be..

Alpha
Charlie
Bravo
Delta
Echo
Foxtrot
etc..

If that's the case.. is Echo only the 5th active? and Alpha was the first?

I like the theory that "Alpha" may be an imprint and not just a physical active.

2) Do cute girls really try to flirt with guys that live next to them in apartment buildings by baking them food?

lol

Ladies.. the whole thing about the way to a man's heart is through his stomach may have had some truth to it 50 years ago.. but I can think of a million ways to my heart.. and none of them involve food.

I think a lot of guys would agree.

3) It appears that a lot of times an active (at least echo, and possibly other female actives) are hired out for 'romantic' purposes. Which I'm fine with.

Actually it's an intrequing aspect of the show. We've seen many glimpses of Echo being hired out as such. However, we haven't seen how Echo starts such an assignment. IE.. when she first meets her "love interest" who hired her. So if someone is just highering her out of a weekend whirlwind romance, do you think that the person has to be there when they do the imprint so that she's sort of "already in love" with them when she wakes up? Sort of like how they imprint the trust with her handler?

I'm sure they will reveal more.

I'm also sure that as the show progresses that we will see other actives on assignment, or in combination with Echo.

4) The second in command security guy. Why is he such a ***#$&( towards the actives? His entire paycheck revolves around the actives.. why go and screw with them? Seems like everyone should show them more respect. They, and Topher, are the rockstars that make the whole thing work.

5) How in the world does the dollhouse hide an entire small army? Helicopters and all? As soon as you tell ONE other person on this planet something.. it's no longer a secret. I guess one thing that's not sitting right with me.. is that this dollhouse, that seems like a HUGE operation, and is constantly being hired out by rich people, is able to stay a secret?

I can understand why the rich would keep quite. If the dollhouse goes under.. then they no longer can higer an active. So they have an incentive to keep a good thing going. However.. what about everyone who ever works there? Do they kill anyone who decides to quit? Or do they wipe their memory? What if a rich person wants their money back or they will spill the beans? Do they kill that person or do they kidnap them and wipe their memory of the dollhouse?

And it's not just the main employees that we see that have to keep a secret. What about the contractor who built these offices? What about the cleaning people who come in each night to clean the place? What about the repair men who have to come in and fix things that break? Or even change lightbulbs? Install new equiptment? What about the suppliers who outfit the James bond survallence vans? Or the company that launched their satlites into orbit? And the list goes on and on and on..

They HAVE to have some kind of "front".. meaning the dollhouse would HAVE to act like they are some kind of legit business that would have need for all this stuff. Yet we haven't seen ANY indication that this is the case.

Hopefully this will be addressed as the series goes on. So far, I'm thinking that it would be better if the dollhouse was a much smaller, much more underground opporation. That would at least maybe plausable that you could hide it.

Overall.. better than the first episode.. and hope the next is even better.

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Monday, February 23, 2009 5:00 AM

FREELANCERTEX

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
lmao, dude, are you referencing Red vs Blue there, or did you seriously just think of that on your own? XD

I felt pretty sure I was the first person to post that. I think John came up with it independently

well i ask only because in RvB a very similar thing happened XD it was great

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Monday, February 23, 2009 5:37 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Quote:
Originally posted by lissa:
Was anybody else reminded of SlayerFest '98? And I mean that in a good way:)

Props to Steven DeKnight (writer and director). He did some great work on Angel, and looks like he will be doing the same on Dollhouse!

~lissa

Yes. I did! Felt very Buffy in many ways. Especially the way Echo had had enough and decided to hunt the hunter. Great episode.

And yes Steven DeKnight continues to improve with his writing and directing. I think this was a nice gesture from Joss to give him the second episode and in many ways the juicier story too. It is a pity that he has now left the production though :( Perhaps to start his own show? Anyway all the best to him.

The notion of composite memories is brilliant. That can only become more exciting. I'm wondering if the 'Dolls' notion are an extension of what Joss had in mind, for what the Governement were doing to River and co in Firefly?

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Monday, February 23, 2009 8:41 AM

INSTANTKARMAGIRL

I liked better than the pilot, which isn't unusual for me and Joss shows.

While I enjoyed last Friday's episode, I'm having issues with the core themes of the show.

I know it's just getting started and I will, as always, give Joss and team time to develop, but with nearly all of his other creations, there's something underlying about the females he writes, the sex that they have, and roles that they carry that strike me as unsettling.

I guess I have an issue with programmable people and yes, I know that I'm supposed to have a problem with it, it's supposed to make me uneasy, but at least in the pilot episode it dealt with hiring her out to save someone or perform an actual function, other than just sex.

I don't have a problem with Inara and her position as Companion...because she controls everything about it...but these Dolls, males and femals, have no choice, except the very first choice they made to enter the house...which didn't seem like a choice.

It makes me very uneasy that there are so many people standing around, helping the process happen.

It's just me, I'm sure, but I hope to be able to get over my issues with it soon. The last episode was written very well and touched on a great (and potentially caring) relationship between Echo and her handler.

~**~
"How come you're flying about with us brigands? I mean, shouldn't you be off bringing religiosity to the Fuzzie-Wuzzies or some such?"~Cap'n Mal

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Monday, February 23, 2009 9:46 AM

ZEEK

Bleh I guess I'm the only one who thought this episode was worse than the first. The entire mission this time just seemed sooooo bad. Nothing in that whole setup rang true to me like something that could actually happen. It's going to get really old really quick if every week is about some mission and how it goes wrong and how echo and her handler get out of a bind.

I'm semi-curious about alpha but I'm wondering if he's really echo too. I mean we saw her in this episode looking at herself just like she was looking at alpha in the shower murder scene. If he's an implanted memory then maybe her dream was of looking at the image of what alpha thinks he looks like.

All in all I still don't like the premise of the show. It takes up a lot of the episodes and so far it is not impressing me at all.

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Monday, February 23, 2009 10:24 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Bleh I guess I'm the only one who thought this episode was worse than the first...

Oh, I wouldn't say that...that you're the only one, that is.

I always try to bear in mind that the first season - hell, even the first two seasons - of any show can be a little rocky, but that consideration alone was not enough to stay my remote-hand the other night. Because it's Joss, and (mostly) because success for Dollhouse might raise the metaphorical waters in which the Firefly we call Serenity floats...I will keep watching. Or that's the plan, anyway.

I know Joss's concepts and story arcs take a while to develop and play out, and I can see where he's getting the groundwork laid in this series for all that to happen. I got no problem with any of that. But in both eps so far there's been too much straining of the willing suspension of my easily-aroused disbelief.

Or maybe I just need my sci-fi and strong determined women mixed with six-guns...oh, frak - I'm a closet Western-o-phile!

It was like that when we got here!

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Monday, February 23, 2009 11:02 AM

ZEEK

I think that you said it better than I could Washnwear. I'm spending so much energy suspending disbelief that the ground work being done just isn't enough to save the show for me right now. Since it's Joss I'll keep watching hoping for a good payoff later.

Does anyone know how the ratings worked out? Is Dollhouse even going to be around next week to keep watching?

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Monday, February 23, 2009 11:36 AM

CLJOHNSTON108

On Friday I'd just gotten the official news that The Middleman has, in fact, been cancelled, so watching Matt Keeslar give up the ghost at the end sorta had a double meaning for me.

All in all, I liked the episode, but Echo seemed a whole lot more physically adept at the beginning of the engagement, when they were kayaking and rockclimbing, than she was later.
I realize she was in a blind panic over being hunted, but it was suddenly like she had never had any athletic coordination, or as if she'd never set foot in the woods before.
Maybe that's just me.

I kept thinking, "Well, if they're not gonna default 'em with ninja skills (because of Alpha), at least default 'em with MacGyver skills!"

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Monday, February 23, 2009 2:10 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by InstantKarmaGirl:
I liked better than the pilot, which isn't unusual for me and Joss shows.

While I enjoyed last Friday's episode, I'm having issues with the core themes of the show.

I know it's just getting started and I will, as always, give Joss and team time to develop, but with nearly all of his other creations, there's something underlying about the females he writes, the sex that they have, and roles that they carry that strike me as unsettling.

I guess I have an issue with programmable people and yes, I know that I'm supposed to have a problem with it, it's supposed to make me uneasy, but at least in the pilot episode it dealt with hiring her out to save someone or perform an actual function, other than just sex.

I agree. In the second episode, when Echo was telling about the guy on her last 'date,' I admit I cringed. The idea of her being used by some fat fuck to get his jollies off really didn't sit well with me. Not because the guy was overweight, of course, but simply because, at that moment, you truly see the abuse for what it is, in its naked form (no pun intended). Even with Inara, you can dress it up with tea-parties and civilized conversation, but the bottom line is still about sex. Yet, like you say, Inara, at least, has a choice (even if she's in denial, cuz it would still be her choice to deny it). But Echo? In her own words, "I really don't have a choice, do I?" She's essentially being coerced into either (presumably) going to jail for something she apparently did -- whilst only trying to make a difference -- and now can choose between either doing hard time or becoming peeps' programmable sex toy. Adella tries to sell her on how nothing is what it appears to be. But Echo, again, got it pegged properly: "It seems pretty clear to me."

Quote:

It makes me very uneasy that there are so many people standing around, helping the process happen.

Makes me uneasy, too. Even Boyd, allegedly a good guy, still plays along. Not merrily, perhaps, but he's nonetheless still every bit as co-pimping her as the rest of the gang. Harper... err, I mean Topher (I wonder why I made that connection) doesn't seem endowed with an overabundance of conscience, either. At least Boyd can hardly look her in the eye without feeling guilt. If, as your nick suggests, there's such a thing as instant karma, then I hope these folks have their rendez-vous with destiny soon. :) After all, as Mal said, Wheel never stops turning.

As for the pilot, not sure why people are so down on it. I truly liked it. :) Echo pulled off her role as professional negotiator masterfully; and the whole theme served as a good manner to introduce the notion that unforeseen complications can arise from these imprints. At the end of the day, I guess I simply just like Echo. Dunno why. And no, not just because she's pretty. All the girls in the Dollhouse are, after all; but Echo is strong, too. In a way you could say that Echo succeeds where Sarah Connor (in TSCC) fails: John's mom is always angry -- and even when she's not angry, she still looks angry. And she irritates me. I guess they meant her to appear serious that way. Eliza, on the other hand, I really like. She can look real serious too, yet manages to accomplish such sans radiating all this negativity (the way Sarah does). Yep, gonna stick with Eliza for a while. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, February 23, 2009 2:32 PM

CHRISISALL

The "Dollhouse" is actually a pretty sick organization, IMO.

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 23, 2009 3:23 PM

INSTANTKARMAGIRL

Quote:

In a way you could say that Echo succeeds where Sarah Connor (in TSCC) fails: John's mom is always angry -- and even when she's not angry, she still looks angry. And she irritates me. I guess they meant her to appear serious that way. Eliza, on the other hand, I really like. She can look real serious too, yet manages to accomplish such sans radiating all this negativity (the way Sarah does). Yep, gonna stick with Eliza for a while. :)

I quite agree. And I appreciate your thoughts on the other issues Dollhouse raises as well.

One more thing...Female power in this show seems to come from men giving the females (and males, yet that hasn't been explored yet) the power, which to me, negates the very idea of being a powerful female.

Don't think I said that right, but I'm still mulling over Joss's crazy ideas.

Can't we just have a crew of crazy criminals flying around space talking like they're in a Western again? Geez. Joss has to make things SO complicated now a days!

~**~
"How come you're flying about with us brigands? I mean, shouldn't you be off bringing religiosity to the Fuzzie-Wuzzies or some such?"~Cap'n Mal

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Monday, February 23, 2009 4:01 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by InstantKarmaGirl:

I quite agree. And I appreciate your thoughts on the other issues Dollhouse raises as well.

And right back at ya. :) I'm glad you brought up a matter that was bothering me, too.

Quote:

One more thing...Female power in this show seems to come from men giving the females (and males, yet that hasn't been explored yet) the power, which to me, negates the very idea of being a powerful female.

Very true. Yet when Echo was being chased, I just felt her inner strength, is all. Not sure it's power per se (in the sense of who dominates who), but more like innate, unalienable character. Could be that was just Eliza's strong acting, but I feel Echo has that selfsame inner strength, too. And it will be her ticket out. At least I'm rooting for her to have it be so. :)

At the end of the day, I think the Dollhouse will have to come down. Not that every story necessarily needs to have a happy ending, but to let the Dollhouse story progress in a direction other than its ultimate dissolution, just seems immoral to me. I mean, I just can't imagine Joss wanting to send out a message like this sorta thing is okay.

And then Echo will shoot someone. And their puppy. And they had it coming. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, February 23, 2009 8:04 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by cljohnston108:
On Friday I'd just gotten the official news that The Middleman has, in fact, been cancelled,"

Wow. I guess eliminating the middleman is as simple as it sounds. :)

They best not do that to Dollhouse.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 3:05 AM

JONGSSTRAW

The ratings for Dollhouse for last Friday were bad. Overall viewers dropped by 500,000 from the Pilot week. This cannot be good. I hope Fox hangs in there with this despite the falling numbers.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 4:25 AM

ASARIAN

My, here's a bit of news made out of sunshine: apparently Alan 'Wash' Tudyk will be playing the role of Alpha!

http://www.freewebs.com/alantudyknet/news.htm

Frakkin' A!

--
"Watch how I soar!" -- Wash Hoburn

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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:22 AM

ZEEK

Didn't Alan himself say he wasn't going to be on Dollhouse? Since when is Joss secretive about this type of stuff? I don't buy it. I think it's a prank.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:10 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
My, here's a bit of news made out of sunshine: apparently Alan 'Wash' Tudyk will be playing the role of Alpha!

http://www.freewebs.com/alantudyknet/news.htm

Frakkin' A!

I always knew Wash would be resurrected from the grave. Joss has a habit of undead actors.

"And his was an evil laugh. Grenades?"
-Wash

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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:32 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Didn't Alan himself say he wasn't going to be on Dollhouse? Since when is Joss secretive about this type of stuff? I don't buy it. I think it's a prank.

Well, it was posted on Whedonesque, and they have rules about submitting BS:

http://whedonesque.com/comments/19212

Seems pretty genuine to me.

N.B. And to quote gossi on Whedonesque:

"In case there’s any confusion about this – Alan told the Farpoint convention recently he wouldn’t be in Dollhouse at all. He lied. He actually told the crowd this after Joss announced Alan was in Dollhouse himself."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:20 AM

CHRISISALL

FOX exec:
Sir, we have that pilot from Mr. Whedon. Shall I run it for you, Mr. Yenehc?

Cheney (darkly lit to conceal features):
I have already seen it. Make him re-do it. By the numbers. *snickers*

FOX exec:
But sir, it seems like a winner to me.*gulps*

Cheney:
I say who wins on this station. Me. I am the decider.
Mr. Whedon will not be allowed to premier with his best work.
We must draw it out...let him fall.

FOX exec:
Sort of what Dick Cheney did to George Bush, right, heh heh?

Cheney:
*

Why...yes. A genius, that one. [evil music begins]

FOX exec:
But sir, how will our network profit from Whedon's failure?

Cheney:
Boy, the value of another creative Liberal losing credibility with the entertainment establishment cannot be measured in mere money.
MU HU HU HA HA HA!!!

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:56 PM

PACHELBEL

I didn't think it was much better than the pilot, that is to say not very good. Perhaps I'm missing something. We'll see again on Friday.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 11:06 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Hey, you can't make this stuff up.......er, wait.........you just did!

The evil empire music was a nice touch.
Darth Vader has nothing on Cheney - MU HU HU HA HA HA!!!

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:53 AM

MUGGI

Cut/pasting my response from another Dollhouse thread...and I'm glad someone else got the "The Most Dangerous Game" connection!

Paste:

I gotta admit...I'm just not seeing at all what many of you seem to be.

Ep2 was just a remake of The Most Dangerous Game, a short story that's been remade onto film about 50 times. It was stunningly unoriginal material from a guy that's always impressed me with his originality.

I still have faith, but so far the show has been a HUGE disappointment on several levels. Elisha has been...eh, ok I guess. The "did I fall asleep?" meme sounds forced and stilted every time she says it. The FBI agent's role has been shoehorned in, and again is a very, very common plot element.

I guess I was expecting a lot more from a show with such an original idea. So far it's been a very formulaic, common show. Only two episodes so, I hope the REALLY good stuff is still on the horizon.

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Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:44 AM

STOWEAWAY

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Didn't Alan himself say he wasn't going to be on Dollhouse? Since when is Joss secretive about this type of stuff? I don't buy it. I think it's a prank.

Well, it was posted on Whedonesque, and they have rules about submitting BS:

http://whedonesque.com/comments/19212

Seems pretty genuine to me.

N.B. And to quote gossi on Whedonesque:

"In case there’s any confusion about this – Alan told the Farpoint convention recently he wouldn’t be in Dollhouse at all. He lied. He actually told the crowd this after Joss announced Alan was in Dollhouse himself."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

That's pretty sneaky

-------------------------------------------------
Check out http://www.americasfunniesttshirts.com for hilarious shirts at a great price.

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Thursday, February 26, 2009 1:55 PM

CELLARDOOR

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Quote:
"I have four brothers, none of them Democrats."
-Echo, Dollhouse, The Target

Joss is back!

Between this hilarious, well-timed line and seeing Badger elsewhere in the episode (yeah, his accent did sound kinda forced, but I forgive him), I'm sticking around for more this week. It may not be a comedy series, but that doesn't mean Joss can't sneak in comic relief. I liked this episode significantly better than the pilot.

For commercials.... well, I actually streamed it from Fox the next day since I was introducing my parents to Firefly the night "The Target" aired. :) So I didn't have to worry about commercials, and since I'm not a Nielsen family/person I didn't feel too guilty about not watching it at original air time...

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