Poll: When Crow goes through Serenity's engine... by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by WASHnwear:
ASARIAN - I see your point, but if you're inclined to give partial credit, Crow was awake and he was facing him...2 out of 3, and all...

Fair to say. :)

Now, I know it's all 'Crow/air through the egine,' but been thinking some more about Niska's muscled doorman, and the psychology of it all. Here's how I see it now.

Firstly, Mal had no intention to kill Crow at first when calling the deal off. Mal, being the Captain and all, always (when even instinctively) thinks ahead a few steps, and he realized, better perhaps than he let on, that Niska is not the person with whom to frak:

ZOE
He's a psycho, you know. Niska.

MAL
He's not the first psycho to hire
us, nor the last. Do you think
that's a commentary on us?

Mal cracks a joke, for sure; but, internally, he's well aware of how dangerous Niska is, and probably rather not deal with him, 'cept the situation is as it usually is: they don't exactly got their pickin's of jobs. So, far as Mal is concerned, he'd part ways with Niska, clean as possible:

MAL
Now this is all the money Niska
gave us in advance. You give it
back to him, tell him the
job didn't work out.

Mal is not stupid. And I'm sure he realized that, sooner or later, the wheel which never stops turning would bring around Niska again. But Crow ain't playing ball -- quite the opposite, even. And I think at that point Mal flipped a switch. He had tried to do the honorable -- be it highly self-motived -- thing. He offers the guy a fair way out, for both of them, and what does Crow do? He deliberately screws up the deal, pontificating in Mal's face how his blade will be the last he's gonna see, and yada, yada, yada. To Mal, that just ends the deal -- and all 'courtesies' that go along with it. Not that he's really worried Crow will make good on his threat, per se (after all, he knows it's Niska really who is the real threat); but to Mal, a man who has exactly no time for games, Crow is simple wasting his time from here on out; and since Crow turned down his offer to play nice, Mal also no longer feels honor-bound by it, and through the engine Crow goes -- easy-peasy. :) It's said here before: Mal at least tries to do the honorably thing. But he ain't no saint. Test his sainthood, and you'll find it remarkably absent. And, kinda life he's leading, he can't exactly afford sainthood, either. "Man of honor in a den of thieves." sums him up so well.

Mal also let Patience live, btw. And she shot him, no less (be it due to a perfect legit conflict of interest). Still, even when threatened, I still think Mal will choose not to kill, unless someone deliberately throws away the deck and it's clear there're no more cards left to play (like Crow did; after which Mal swiftly takes action).

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:02 AM

SCOUSERATHEART

There were three moments in the pilot and the train job that sealed the deal for me in terms of becoming a FIREFLY fan.

1) The "Kaylee's dead" statement/joke from Mal in the Pilot. I assumed that Kaylee would be the likable throwaway character to get us invested in the show and then - wham.

2) The bit with Patience (I do a job and I get paid) - getting the cashy money but letting her live.

3) The Train Job - Mal returning the medicine - but kicking Crow into the engine sealed it.

My reaction vis a vis CROW: GASP - , rewinds to watch again Holy crap, this show is awesome.

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 1:29 PM

MSA

I laughed... but then I came out of the psychopath's closet a long time ago.

To love someone is to see a miracle invisible to others.
--Francois Mauriac
It's fuzzy-minded liberal thinking like that that gets you eaten.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 5:16 AM

VERASAMUELS

1. Shows that Mal has an...interesting...moral compass [GG].

2. Shows that Mal can take a more muscled guy than him with a little help :-).

3. Sets up nicely for bad guy #2 capitulating.

***

BTW, Andrew Bryanarski = alive and well and not showing any adverse after effects of his shredding!!

Devout Keeper of Jayne's Lunchbox

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:35 AM

For me, Mal's moral compass takes a detour when Book and Inara have left the ship and Mal starts using River on heists as we see in "The Other Half" and
the BDM.

I get the need for resorting to violence wrapped in necessity in killing the "bad guys", but to use a traumatized underage girl and expose her to carnage and suffering explores a new level of darkness in Mal.

There's just nothing humorous or heroic about it and it always bothers me more than Crow, Dobson, etc. It makes me feel bad for both of them, especially after their cutie moment on top of the ship in OiS.

Mal gets back on track by the end of the movie when he goes from a blatant threat aimed at the Operative to his love talk and her flying lesson on the bridge, now that's sweet and poetic, and the Mal we all know and love.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:38 AM

I get the impression that River isn't actually part of the job in The Other Half. She seems to be there because Mal needed Simon to stabilize that murdering whoreson, and just got caught up in a bad situation. She was there just in case, not for any specific reason.

Although for the Payroll Heist on Lilac, yup, she's an active part of it... Though I don't think Mal anticipated the Reavers showing up. If they hadn't, it probably wouldn't have been all that traumatic an experience for River, because Mal wasn't planning on killing anyone. He even spares the guard of the secret vault.

Technically in The Other Half, he says outright he didn't expect the Reavers there, either. I seem to recall that in his own way he apologizes to River for ending up involved, too. He doesn't verballize it, but the way he talks to her at the end is an attempt to see if she's all right with what happened.

I do get what you're saying, and I agree. Someone as sensitive and psychologically/emotionally fragile as River should NOT be involved in some of the nastiness of the crime they have to do. And I agree that Inara and Book leaving marks a dark time for Mal (without any moral compass? Maybe, though dark as Mal can get, I don't yet see him abandoning his own conscience at least).

But on the other hand, being that River's psychic, and considering their lifestyle, the hardships of the Rim, and their luck's track record, it seems to me like it'd be pretty much impossible to protect River from being exposed to unpleasantness. That's not to justify intentionally exposing her, but just what I think is the reality of the situation.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:21 AM

River could have easily stayed on the ship in both of these instances with Kaylee and Wash. Mal's lived in the black long enough to know that shit happens, like Reavers showing up or ‘violence may ensue”. And, I never get the impression that Mal apologizes at the end of "The Other Half", it's not really implied. He knows she's a reader, welcomes her to the crew as a reward for a kill well done and asks her if she understands her role. He doesn't inquire to how she's "feeling". He lets her know what his expectations are if your going to be useful to him. Mal's not that sensitive or fuzzy and he needs to maintain control as Captain so I really don't see an apology for his actions. He’s the Captain, he doesn’t need to.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:53 AM

Oh, he'll never outright apologize, no, that wouldn't be at all captainy. But he's not completely without social tact. Remember in War Stories, when he checks on Simon to see if he was all right using a gun? It's sort of the same situation. And after he insults Inara to the Shepherd in the pilot, how he asks Book to bring her some dinner?

Showing concern for his crew is his way of apologizing. It's his non-verbal form of "You shouldn't have had to be in that situation" or, perhaps more often, "Sorry I'm such a miserable hump."

When he's talking to River in The Other Half, he asks her if he understands why she was in there with Simon, and expresses that he'd told her to be there because he was nervous about the job. In the scenes with River just before that, we learn that there's an ambush waiting for the crew at the rendevous point. That's why the crew was offered half up-front, which is what immediately put Mal on guard.

He never expected Reavers, because who does? They're like the Spanish Inquisition that way.

So that's what I read into the question. He didn't expect it to go that bad. Why would he be explaining that to River? If you're involved in a messy situation, and the guy in charge comes up to you and tells you he never anticipated everything going so wrong, there's three reasons why he might be saying that to you. One, he's looking for validation for his actions, that he did the right thing. Two, that he's trying to figure out what he did wrong. Or three, it's an implied apology for the mess. In Mal's case, I don't think it's one or two, because for the first I think the loss would have to have been more personal, and for the second, once he took the job things really were out of his hands. That leaves three, and considering the almost father-daughter relationship Mal and River have, that's what I conclude.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Although for the Payroll Heist on Lilac, yup, she's an active part of it... Though I don't think Mal anticipated the Reavers showing up. If they hadn't, it probably wouldn't have been all that traumatic an experience for River, because Mal wasn't planning on killing anyone. He even spares the guard of the secret vault.

Set against the knowledge that Joss wanted to convey that Mal and crew were really "Close to gone," bringing River along was perhaps not the most gentleman-like thing to do, but makes sense. Or, put the other way around, in that context it wouldn't make much sense for River to sit around all day and do nothing. Mal needs her. He needs the edge. He needs to know whether someone is planning on being a hero, for example. The place being hit by Reavers, at the exact time they pull their heist, I'm sure that was a million-to-one thingy, and furthest from Mal's mind. He had no intention to sign up to be a banquet. But they skunk the job, what do you think Fanty and Mingo'll do to them?

Mal needs River for the unforeseen element. So, he asks her, "Hey, little one. Understand your part in all this?" River answers in a manner that's more clever than one might think at first glance: "Do you?" Thereby holding that selfsame uncertainty up to him as as mirror, as it were: Mal may indeed not know exactly what he's in for (though Mal doesn't get it, and just replies with surprised confidence: "This is what I do, darling. This is what I do.").

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 11:21 AM

I agree with that assessment, although I don't really take Mal's response as confident, especially when he repeats the line. I think that's meant to show that he's troubled even though he's trying to reassure River. Whether he's worried about the job or troubled as a self-reflective commentary, I'm not sure.

I also have to point out that, though the question Mal poses to River each time is essentially the same, the conversation in the BDM occurs before the job, and in The Other Half it occurs after the job doesn't go smooth.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I agree with that assessment, although I don't really take Mal's response as confident, especially when he repeats the line. I think that's meant to show that he's troubled even though he's trying to reassure River.

I'd say you're right about Mal not being all that confident, although I think he's actually trying to reasure himself at the time, more so than River.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 11:44 AM

Although, using the same parameters I used on the other situation, could this be construed as an apology in advance?

I always read a little bit of tired regret in Mal when he says "This is what I do" again. I've never really ever gotten the impression he's generally proud of being a criminal (except in the rare Robin-Hood-esque or stealing-money-from-slavers moments). He was raised religious, and as much as he dislikes God, I think he still believes in the rules he was taught and is ashamed that he can't follow them. I think it's why Inara calling him a petty thief gets under his skin so much.

Does he regret how he leads his crew into committing crime? Look at how he refuses to let Inara get involved in The Message. I bet he hates that Kaylee is involved at all, because he thinks of her as so innocent and wants to protect her. And Wash, he's not a criminal.

Zoe I'm not sure about, on one hand they understand each other, on the other I wonder if he doesn't feel like he's betrayed their friendship or her loyalty by what he leads her into.

Jayne's already a criminal, no regrets there. River, Simon, and Book were all relatively new to the crew.

When Book steals a vehicle and comes to save them in Those Left Behind, Mal later mocks the hypocrisy of Book's religion and his actions... But I don't get the impression that Mal is like that towards Book all the time. He lets Book preach to the people of Constance at the start of Those Left Behind as a diversion rather than have Book join them in the actual stealing. Was that just practicality, or in a way was that Mal trying to accomodate Book's beliefs?

River falls under the "wants to protect" category with Kaylee, I think. Simon might also.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:03 PM

I don't think it's a question of whether or not River is useful (see the Alliance on that), to me it comes down to what is best for her as a person who has shown lapses in reality and isn't fully comfortable with what she has unwillingly become.

Mal is aware of her condition. Apologizing for behavior doesn't make it any less unethical. Mal's guilty of using River for her talents just as much as the Alliance or Blue Sun is for wanting her back, so they can use her. His may be cloaked in his freedom banner, but it's the same none the less. That's how I interpretate the "do you?" line from River. What he’s not aware of is how close he’s really standing to where the Alliance stands.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Although, using the same parameters I used on the other situation, could this be construed as an apology in advance?

I always read a little bit of tired regret in Mal when he says "This is what I do" again.

I feel that regret in his voice, too. Perhaps it's more disappointment, really. Spelling it out for himself, that this is, indeed, what he does, pulling heists for that powerful need to eat next month, I'm sure this is not exactly the life he had in mind.

Quote:

I've never really ever gotten the impression he's generally proud of being a criminal (except in the rare Robin-Hood-esque or stealing-money-from-slavers moments). He was raised religious, and as much as he dislikes God, I think he still believes in the rules he was taught and is ashamed that he can't follow them. I think it's why Inara calling him a petty thief gets under his skin so much.

I honestly don't see it. Mal is a practical man. He does jobs. He doesn't really see himself as a criminal. Ripping off some genuine A-grade Alliance foodstuffs, or their payroll, I believe Mal is not in the least bit bothered by that. Finding out he stole much needed medicine, now THAT troubles him, and he seeks to undo it. That's how I believe Mal sees himself: "My work's illegal, but at least it's honest."

Quote:

Does he regret how he leads his crew into committing crime? Look at how he refuses to let Inara get involved in The Message. I bet he hates that Kaylee is involved at all, because he thinks of her as so innocent and wants to protect her. And Wash, he's not a criminal.

Even sweet little Kaylee don't care none about ripping of an Alliance hospital at Ariel. She cares about the people, of course. But as soon as Zoe reassures her they be restocked within hours, and won't even miss it, she's flat okay with it. And I don't think because Mal 'corrupted' her, or even thinks he corrupted her. And nor even I think Kaylee is corrupted, for that matter. :) I mean, that's just what life on the rim is like, for pretty much all of them. Kaylee, in my eyes, is still very innocent. My point being, I wouldn't classify any of them as criminals, really. And I don't think Mal sees himself that way, either.

As for Inara's "petty thief" remark, I think it's the 'petty' far more than the 'thief' that bothers Mal. In fact, I believe that had she called him a "great thief" (and Mal felt she really meant it), he would have been proud, even.

I haven't read Those Left Behind, so I can't comment on that.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I don't think it's a question of whether or nor River is useful (see the Alliance on that), to me it comes down to what is best for her as a person who has shown lapses in reality and isn't fully comfortable with what she has unwillingly become.

Mal is aware of her condition. Apologizing for behavior doesn't make it any less unethical. Mal's guilty of using River for her talents just as much as the Alliance or Blue Sun is for wanting her back, so they can use her. His may be cloaked in his freedom banner, but it's the same none the less. That's how I interpretate the "do you?" line from River. What he’s not aware of is how close he’s really standing to where the Alliance stands.

I think you're being a mite harsh on Mal. :) Wanting someone to pull their weight, in general, doesn't equal being guilty of using someone. In this case, I think Mal avoided asking anything of River for the longest time, but today he really needed her, and -- though he may not really have been all that comfortable with the idea -- felt he had no choice but to involve her.

Also, I didn't exactlty get the impression that River felt she was being abused/taken advantage of. Traumatized seventeen-year-old or no, I think she was actually fair excited over the prospect of being included on the job. I'm sure she felt a bit trepidatious, this being her first heist and all; but overall, if I read her face right, she seemed if not overtly looking forward to it, then certainly not opposed to the idea of joining them.

Though I still say bringing her along was a bad choice, as the risk was simply too high, even when it was over River weren't the least bit upset. "I swallowed a bug" is more like her way of saying she had an enervating time, than her voicing how close Mal is 'standing to where the Alliance stands.'

This is just how I saw it, of course.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:44 PM

I smell a lot of rationalizing for all the crew’s consent in regards to their criminal behavior. They all know its wrong, as we do. Stealing medicine that can be easily replaced drives up costs. The same for stealing payroll, someone has to cover for that, usually the workers. Let's not pretend that we think that is right. Mal's not proud of it. Book wants no part in it and leaves. Mal wants Inara to have no part in it and she leaves. The rest need work and Zoe wants to retire rich:)

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I smell a lot of rationalizing for all the crew’s consent in regards to their criminal behavior. They all know its wrong, as we do. Stealing medicine that can be easily replaced drives up costs. The same for stealing payroll, someone has to cover for that, usually the workers. Let's not pretend that we think that is right. Mal's not proud of it. Book wants no part in it and leaves. Mal wants Inara to have no part in it and she leaves. The rest need work and Zoe wants to retire rich:)

I ain't saying stealing ain't wrong: I'm saying that Mal and crew don't really see it as wrong. Even Inara, while used to more conversation and somewhat less petty theft and getting hit with pool cues, still has no quams about stashing stolen money in her bra.

And Inara left for a lot of reasons, but Mal's thievery, I reckon, was the least of them.

And Book? Why did he leave? Do we even know?

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1:14 PM

I think that quote from Mal about his work being "honest" is in the context of Inara's work somehow NOT being honest. He sees her work as leading people on. Maybe there's some truth to that, but I'm not here to judge either of them.

So he feels his work is more honest than Inara's work. I don't think it nececssarily follows that he thinks his work is morally justifiable, or that he thinks his work makes him a "good guy." If anything, I suspect he thinks of himself as a murdering heartless thief, and his work is all wrapped up in that. I think he's very much aware that he's a criminal, he wishes he wasn't a criminal, and Inara's social position makes him feel just how low he is all the worse. And I also think, if he felt like he had any other option, this wouldn't be his job of choice. But he thinks he's mostly dead inside, and won't accept anything that the Alliance considers legal, so what else is there for him? Worst case scenario, he gets shot, and while he's not suicidal, I get the feeling he doesn't really care if he were to die.

Most of the time, he can justify the risks he takes and the moral ambiguity by the food on the table argument you mentioned (and lucky for his popularity, so do the rest of us). Sometimes the situation goes beyond the usual moral dilemma of to steal/kill or not (like depriving a town of medicine), and in those cases he tries to make ammends. And sometimes he feels like his stealing or killing IS the right thing to do.

Generally, though, I don't get the sense of pride from Mal for what he does, but practical necessity and weary acceptance.

Now, I don't think everyone in the Rim is a thief. I don't think Kaylee was raised a thief. I do think in many ways she is still innocent, and I don't think Mal has corrupted her.

I'm not sure if Mal doesn't think he hasn't corrupted her.

You make an interesting point on Inara's petty thief snipes. The one time Mal makes a big deal over being called petty is inconsistent: Inara had called him a petty thief plenty of times before, and the most it seemed to do was mildly annoy him and trigger an insult of his own. I have to try to think whether he would be flattered if she called him a great thief. I can see it going either way. Most likely Inara calling him a great thief would be sarcastic. If it wasn't... I'm not sure Inara would ever call him a great thief and mean it, but hypothetically... Well, I doubt the man knows how to take a compliment, especially from Inara, so I can imagine him saying "No, I ain't," more than I can imagine him being pleased. If he were to be pleased, I think it'd be more the elevation of his work to something Inara respects than being called great that would please him. If Inara called him a great thief, meaning it, but implying that she thought being a thief still isn't a good thing, he wouldn't take that well.

Plus, Mal's insults are always about Inara's work, so I guess I've always seen it as Inara insulting Mal's work right back. And I think that's how Mal takes it, too.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1:22 PM

Inara Inara. :)

For all she tries to pretend like she hates the crime (and when it ends up with someone getting shot she does), she sure gets a thrill out of it, doesn't she?

It amuses me how eager she is in The Message to help Mal try and sell the Lassiter. And you can just tell she LOVED trash-talking to Saffron when she had the upper hand.

I never said that the crew never thinks that sometimes they're doing the right thing, or that they think what they're doing is acceptable. Using the Lassiter example, it's another Robin Hood moment, stealing from someone who is rich (and if Saffron is to be believed, also something of a sadist, though I don't see it in the meeting).

I'm saying, in general, that Mal knows he's a criminal, regrets that he is, and wishes he wasn't.

EDIT: Book's leaving is covered in Those Left Behind. He decides to leave because he believes being on Serenity has started to compromise his faith and behaviour too much.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:05 PM

I'm saying, in general, that Mal knows he's a criminal, regrets that he is, and wishes he wasn't.

Me too!

And, I can't really judge Mal's character by Inara's POV; she's way too much in love with him for her to make an informed analysis. He could kill every puppy in the verse and she would still think he needed to so they could reincarnate into a higher life form. She has hysterical blindness when it comes to Mal.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:54 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I smell a lot of rationalizing for all the crew’s consent in regards to their criminal behavior. They all know its wrong, as we do. Stealing medicine that can be easily replaced drives up costs. The same for stealing payroll, someone has to cover for that, usually the workers. Let's not pretend that we think that is right. Mal's not proud of it. Book wants no part in it and leaves. Mal wants Inara to have no part in it and she leaves. The rest need work and Zoe wants to retire rich:)

I ain't saying stealing ain't wrong: I'm saying that Mal and crew don't really see it as wrong. Even Inara, while used to more conversation and somewhat less petty theft and getting hit with pool cues, still has no quams about stashing stolen money in her bra.

And Inara left for a lot of reasons, but Mal's thievery, I reckon, was the least of them.

And Book? Why did he leave? Do we even know?

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

I must side with Asarian on this.
Did Robin Hood and his band consider themselves to be WRONG? Percieved as criminals by the bourgeous and the sheeple, yes, but WRONG? I think not. They surely understood clearly that Nottingham Sheriff was WRONG, he was the real crook.
It may be argued that much of today's politics is based on which crooks proclaim that the real crooks are the ones in office declaring the true heroes are crooks.
Does Mal & crew know that Alliance goons and sheeple view them as crooks? yep. Do they consider themselves to be WRONG because they have not bowed down to the corruption of the murderous Alliance and Parliament, and remove needed supplies from the overflowing stockpiles of the greedy and provide instead to the needy (or those willing to pay)? I don't see that.
And, umm, they're wrong because they drive up the costs of the needed items the Alliance is overflowing with, even thought the stated "company policy" of the Alliance is that they will provide to all the worlds of the verse - but in reality are hording the goodies just for themselves, the Core folk. Get real. Concerned about the cost ratios of the crooks who are screwing the Rim folk, good job.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:16 PM

Robin Hood as Mal Hood is a flawed analogy. Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor and lives in Sherwood Forest.

Mal steals from anyone and fuels and feeds his crew, and stays in fancy hotels, when not on Serenity.

Those huddled on the floor in the Lilac Station looking intently at their bellybuttons would most likely perceive Mal and Jayne as being bad guys, like Jayne himself says.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:17 PM

ANOTHERSKY

I didn't laugh. I was like "Can...they do that?"

Honestly, for sudden violence in the 'verse, it's one of the cringe-worthy for me.

When Mal shoots the Alliance plant with a mind to take River off Serenity without even breaking stride, now that was ALMOST a laugh moment. It was more "hey that was cool, I guess..."

But for some reason, Crow seemed more realistic through the absurdity. Showed us a non-robin hood moment for all involved, because it wasn't against Alliance, just a regular old power struggle---dirty things do in fact get done behind the scenes. Makes you remember that even when you try to play fair, sometimes dirty things have to get done behind the scenes.

Unlike shooting the Alliance goon, however, I think he had to do it. Niska is way scarier than alliance, while being more campy, so I dunno. I'm finding that Joss and his team of wackos seems to like improbable combinations. Which is fine with me.

Going for a ride.

Another Sky

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:49 PM

ANOTHERSKY

"I think that quote from Mal about his work being "honest" is in the context of Inara's work somehow NOT being honest. He sees her work as leading people on. Maybe there's some truth to that, but I'm not here to judge either of them.

So he feels his work is more honest than Inara's work. I don't think it nececssarily follows that he thinks his work is morally justifiable, or that he thinks his work makes him a "good guy." If anything, I suspect he thinks of himself as a murdering heartless thief, and his work is all wrapped up in that. I think he's very much aware that he's a criminal, he wishes he wasn't a criminal, and Inara's social position makes him feel just how low he is all the worse. And I also think, if he felt like he had any other option, this wouldn't be his job of choice. But he thinks he's mostly dead inside, and won't accept anything that the Alliance considers legal, so what else is there for him? Worst case scenario, he gets shot, and while he's not suicidal, I get the feeling he doesn't really care if he were to die. "--Bytemite

The "petty thief" context is a good observation, Bytemite. Mal understands his low social position, and I think it's one of the things that needles him so when he's forcibly contrasted with somebody like Inara or even Badger--in Mal's mind, they're degraded by their jobs also, in denial about implications of said job, therefore dishonest (therefore connected with criminality), and yet they posess "delusions of standing"---hurts worse when the rest of society believes that too. Course it comes in handy when something like the Train Job goes south and Inara can sashay in and waltz them out.

I also get the oddest feeling that Mal can't help himself from playing fair, mostly, due to the way he was raised, but he hates it half the time and wonders where it gets him anything, being an 'honest' thief. Guess what he's trying to say by describing himself that way is that even though he may habitually break the law, he tries to not be too hypocritical, which in his eyes, is far worse than crime.
Mal's hypocrisy sensor (for others, anyway) is off the chart--just check out the things he says to, most notably, Book, Inara and Simon.

Going for a ride.

Another Sky

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:00 PM

Umm, stealing from a company’s supply will drive up the demand for replacement and cause higher cost for anyone rich, poor, rim, or core. Higher costs are always absorbed by the buyer or the drone worker as you say.

How is having well stocked needed Medical supplies at major hospitals hording supplies for the bad nasty Alliance people? The Alliance provided the medicine that Mal stole in The Train Job. In the original script he was not to return it. And, Mal sells what he steals on the Black Market in War Stories, how is this helping the needy get the supplies for a fair price? All are making a profit off the needy, rich or poor.

I just don’t see how you can consider Mal’s actions heroic in these scenarios. And, all I'm saying is I don't think he considers himself heroic either.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:18 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Umm, stealing from a company’s supply will drive up the demand for replacement and cause higher cost for anyone rich, poor, rim, or core. Higher costs are always absorbed by the buyer or the drone worker as you say.

How is having well stocked needed Medical supplies at major hospitals hording supplies for the bad nasty Alliance people? The Alliance provided the medicine that Mal stole in The Train Job. In the original script he was not to return it. And, Mal sells what he steals on the Black Market in War Stories, how is this helping the needy get the supplies for a fair price? All are making a profit off the needy, rich or poor.

I just don’t see how you can consider Mal’s actions heroic in these scenarios. And, all I'm saying is I don't think he considers himself heroic either.

In Ariel and War Stories, Mal & co are planning to take from an Alliance hospital, to distribute to Rim worlds "where it is most needed" - yet the Alliance location will have the shelves restocked within an hour, and likely not even notice a dent in supply - how is this NOT hogging the supply, when Rim worlds need it and don't have enough, and the Core practically has more than they know what to do with - how can you justify that as a balanced and fair distribution system? And the Rim worlds "black market" will be paying a reduced cost - instead of the pharaceuticals charging 5-10 times their cost.
Regarding the profit, pricing decision of distribution, this was discussed at length in War Stories with Mal, Wash, Zoe, and the decision to not cut out the middleman which would develope enemies where they had none.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:34 PM

"Where it is most needed" doesn't mean "it's not available". The Alliance Pharmaceutical Companies would be wise to sell it to all worlds to turn a profit. We do this in the US. Africa is one of our largest clients that buy our drugs, as their need is great.

Simon knows the value of the meds, in any market, and pays Mal with that knowledge. Mal doesn't distribute them out of the goodness of his heart. He sells them on the unregulated Black Market, which doesn't necessarily mean at a lower cost to those in need.

I think there's a tendency to want to make the core worlds full of nasty greedy Alliance people and make the people of the Rim noble, self-sacrificing and honest working. That may be Mal's perception that has been touched on before in other threads, but I don't think it was the intention of Joss and the other writers. It’s too black and white for those of us that know there are shades of grey:)

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think that quote from Mal about his work being "honest" is in the context of Inara's work somehow NOT being honest. He sees her work as leading people on. (...) So he feels his work is more honest than Inara's work.

That's certainly the case. As regards Inara's profession, he can't stand "The lie of it."

Quote:

I don't think it nececssarily follows that he thinks his work is morally justifiable, or that he thinks his work makes him a "good guy."

Not 'morally justifiable' an sich, per se; more like 'at least more justifiable than Inara's work.' Because his work may be illegal, but at least it's honest.

Quote:

If anything, I suspect he thinks of himself as a murdering heartless thief, and his work is all wrapped up in that. I think he's very much aware that he's a criminal, he wishes he wasn't a criminal, and Inara's social position makes him feel just how low he is all the worse.

Mal's is a complex personality, with a manifold of dark streaks, regrets, and disillusions. I agree he wished he weren't in the thieving business. Yet I feel this has more to do with disliking the fact that he constantly has to put his crew in danger and consort with the kinda people he thinks he's better than, like the likes of Badger and Patience. In the pilot Zoe offers alternatives, but Mal, while uncomfortable with it, just knows he has no choice. It's either Patience or be stuck dead in space.

Mal regrets having to shoot the guy at Lilac (so the Reavers wouldn't get him alive). In fact, he hates it. Not because he sees himself as a 'murdering heartless thief,' but because it's come down to that. They never left a man behind, let alone shot him. Mal feels he let himself down. Here's a man who valiantly held out until the very last moment, at Serenity Valley; and now he's leaving a man stranded at what must seem like the first sign of trouble, in comparison. And worse even, he knows he had no real choice. Zoe knows it, too. Her "Sir, I don't disagree on any particular point," really nails the sentiment: she too truly regrets that it's come to this; but she too can't really blame Mal: Mule won't run with the extra passenger.

So, if anything, Mal feels low at that time in the BDM. Very low. This is not precisely the 'romantic' life of an Independent he had envisioned. But does he feel self-loathing because he killed the poor sap, in terms of going against God? No, I believe not at all. 'Tweren't even on his mind, not even subconsciously. Did Mal lose any sleep, whatsoever, over ripping off the Alliance hospital? Perhaps only because of Jayne. But because he went against his dear and fluffy Lord, taking what ain't his? Hell no! In fact, I think, in Mal's mind, God falls into the same category as Crow now: it's God who threw away the deck first, as far as Mal is concerned: whatever deal he had with God, he no longer feels particularly beholden to honor it; and all this on account of God screwing Mal first.

See, I think Mal's still a Sargeant, always thinking about his men/crew. That's where Mal's real regrets lie: not being able to give them a better life, always having to deal with scum, just to make ends meet. That's what he hates the most.

Quote:

Generally, though, I don't get the sense of pride from Mal for what he does, but practical necessity and weary acceptance.

I should qualify what I meant when I said Mal would be proud if Inara called him a 'great thief.' Sit him around the table, and ask Mal, in general, whether thieving is a thing to be proud of, and I'm fair sure he'd say no. But had Inara called him a 'great thief,' in that quoted convo, I doubt he would have even heard the word 'thief,' or have it register in his brain. All he would have heard is that classy Inara said his work was 'great.' And at such moment, yes, I think he would have been proud.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 4:56 AM

It's true, I only used the phrase "Robin Hood" to describe the few times they feel like they CAN justify robbing from someone (i.e. they're rich and a jerk/Alliance bastard/Slaver/won't miss it). But I don't think Robin Hood is the usual case with them.

Most of the time, I get the feeling they're more scavengers/graverobbers, and because they rarely go towards the Core or even the more Core-like border planets, they probably end up stealing from Rim Folk more often than not. Mal tries to steal from the dishonest Rim Folk, but sometimes that just doesn't happen, like in the Train Job. And I also think the Train Job was probably an exception, and that most of the time, Mal doesn't return what he steals.

Basically, it's not all glorious strikes against the Alliance, and I think, considering the hard life and reality they live, the entire crew must know that their life and their thieving are not glamourous. The crew has never been shown to have anything but a realistic perspective of what they do and how dangerous it is.

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 5:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
"Where it is most needed" doesn't mean "it's not available". The Alliance Pharmaceutical Companies would be wise to sell it to all worlds to turn a profit. We do this in the US. Africa is one of our largest clients that buy our drugs, as their need is great.

Simon knows the value of the meds, in any market, and pays Mal with that knowledge. Mal doesn't distribute them out of the goodness of his heart. He sells them on the unregulated Black Market, which doesn't necessarily mean at a lower cost to those in need.

I think there's a tendency to want to make the core worlds full of nasty greedy Alliance people and make the people of the Rim noble, self-sacrificing and honest working. That may be Mal's perception that has been touched on before in other threads, but I don't think it was the intention of Joss and the other writers. It’s too black and white for those of us that know there are shades of grey:)

Now, some people don't think the RPG manual is canon, but so far stuff I've seen in there has turned up referenced in extras on the Serenity DVDs, and so I still quote it.

And in the RPG manual, unfortunately it suggests that there's a lot of thinking in the Core and Parliament that the Rim needs to be punished for the Independence War. It's sort of like just after the Civil War, the Reconstruction period. A lot of people in the North wanted the South punished, and there were folks called carpet baggers who moved in to take advantage of the South's resources and generally rub the South's nose in their losses.

So, a lot of technology and supplies from the Core don't reach the Rim, and Core based companies don't sell to the Rim as often as you might think, if profits were the only consideration.

Funny thing is, it wasn't all the Rim who was Independent. There were three major border planets (Shadow, Hera, and Persephone), and a few assorted moons, but a lot of the Rim remained Alliance. Like Santos, where Mal starts that U-Day bar fight. But that's again kind of like the South; a lot of homesteads didn't join in the South's cause, but got lumped in as traitors by the North after the war was over.

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 5:31 AM