Critical Info Or Red Herring? by zoid

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Critical Info Or Red Herring?

POSTED BY: ZOID
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 8, 2004 11:31
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5434
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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 10:50 PM

Browncoats:

Last night I grooved on the unedited version of the pilot, "Serenity I & II". That version includes the cut scene wherein Simon queries the encyclopedia; but it is different from the cut scene on the DVD extras disc, and both of those are different from the script excerpt included on the Fox Firefly website. What the heck is going on?

In the script excerpt, the Alliance mastermind of the "deep-flank maneuver" is given as "General Richard Wi-", whereupon it is interrupted by Zoe. On the DVD extras you can hear the full name, "General Richard Wilkins" (I listened to it four times, to make sure I got it right). On the unrevised version of the pilot, Simon stops the recording at "General -"; you can't even hear "Richard", let alone "Wi-" or "Wilkins". Methinks -- now more than ever -- that either something is up with that General, or this is the most sinister red herring in history. If it's a misdirection, Joss Whedon is a criminal genius. (and people call zoid twisted, conspiratorial and convoluted)

Try as I might, I've never been able to latch on to Buffy or Angel intellectually. Therefore, I'd never heard of Sunnyvale, let alone knew that it has an immortal(?) mayor serially named Richard Wilkins. Might Joss have created a character in Firefly with the same name? Might he have used the name as an in-joke?

Only God and JW know for sure; but why change it four times? Why put half of the name in (original script), take the name out of the scene (unrevised pilot), remove the scene entirely (aired pilot) and then put the name back in, in a more complete form than the original script called for (cut-scene on DVD)?

There's something rotten in Denmark, or wherever Joss is keeping the jar with his brain in it these days. If Book isn't Wilkins, then Joss is a very wicked man indeed. Although I've also been toying with the idea that Jayne's been playing possum ("Pretentious?")...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."

- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 11:44 PM

STEALTH

Well that is an interesting plot twist that I hadn’t noticed before and there is another version of a pre pilot that has “not for air” at the bottom of the screen and is half way between the un-aired version and the final pilot, don’t remember if it has that scene in it, have to pull it out and have a look.
Also notice in the scene with Badger that a line from Mal is cut when he says ”happy thoughts” or “think happy thoughts” when he turns to Jayne. Couldn’t understand why they cut those few words out.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:43 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

Ok - this is funky and I must check it out but you're sure of the name? -"General Richard Wilkins"

'Cause Mayor of a little town on the Hellmouth called Sunnydale - he had a name too - and I'm fairly certain it was Richard Wilkins the third (but not really the third because he was 100 years old).

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:45 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

I only metion it because it's such a weird thing for Joss to do. It must just be an in joke thing and Joss decided it wasn't funny only confusing hence all the re-cuts of one silly little name.....?

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 1:00 AM

BLINKER

Quote:
Originally posted by Stealth:
Well that is an interesting plot twist that I hadn’t noticed before and there is another version of a pre pilot that has “not for air” at the bottom of the screen and is half way between the un-aired version and the final pilot, don’t remember if it has that scene in it, have to pull it out and have a look.

There's another unaired pilot? Where'd you get it?

Quote:
Originally posted by Stealth:
Also notice in the scene with Badger that a line from Mal is cut when he says ”happy thoughts” or “think happy thoughts” when he turns to Jayne. Couldn’t understand why they cut those few words out.

The scene works better without them. It's funnier to see Jayne look at all the guns surrounding him and silently, sullenly reholster his.

_________
Sliders: Gate Haven - http://slidersweb.net/blinker

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 2:33 AM

GUNHAND

Most, not all but most writers no matter the genre use in-jokes in their books/scripts/movies etc. Even if they aren't jokes, easteregg is maybe a better term for them.

So Joss using the name of the Mayor of Sunnyvale may be one of those things that he cut because too many people would go,"Doh!" BUT...and there's always a but, if that were just the case then it'd be all manner of simple to just change the name, but obfuscating it further, that makes it seem to me that there is something more that was intended to come out about this General at some point.

I know you're keen on it being Book Zoid, but the one thing is if it was then why doesn't everyone recognise him? It'd be like people in 1870 not recognising General Grant if he happened to come into town. Not likely back then because of Harpers, not likely in the 'Verse because of the Cortex. You win the Mother of All Battles and your face is probably all over the place up to and including stamps and pictures of restaurant owners having holopictures of the man when he came in for a ribeye. Know what I mean?

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 2:33 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Spookyjesus:
I only metion it because it's such a weird thing for Joss to do. It must just be an in joke thing and Joss decided it wasn't funny only confusing hence all the re-cuts of one silly little name.....?

Not necessarily. Writers often use names from previous works. This is very evident in short stories. It doesn’t really mean that there is any plot connection between the two stories. Only that, to the author, the name represents a certain type of character. Obviously, to Joss, the name Richard Wilkins invokes images of a power hungry evil bad guy. If could have some significance, but it's hard to say.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 2:48 AM

HOAGIE

I'm with Finn. It's probably just a coincidence or a filler name. i think that simply because, no matter what version of the scene you watch, it was still cut.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 3:04 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Gunhand wrote:

Quote:
I know you're keen on it being Book Zoid, but the one thing is if it was then why doesn't everyone recognise him? It'd be like people in 1870 not recognising General Grant if he happened to come into town. Not likely back then because of Harpers, not likely in the 'Verse because of the Cortex. You win the Mother of All Battles and your face is probably all over the place up to and including stamps and pictures of restaurant owners having holopictures of the man when he came in for a ribeye. Know what I mean?

Good point Gunhand. One would think that General Wilkins would be a face that many would recognize.

I wonder though..... What if General Wilkins changed his appearance? If Book is actually General Wilkins, as Zoid theorizes, is it possible he changed his appearance to escape his past? If a soldier left the service and became a priest to try to leave his past behind, his profession may not be the only thing he changed.

Remember how the purple bellies jumped when they saw Book's ident card? Could be the name on that card was Wilkins, or perhaps an alias that the Alliance knows he uses.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 6:00 AM

SKYDANCE

Well, if Book was Wilkins, that would certainly result in someone jumping to help him. I'm not ready to believe it, though.

*laughs* Those of you who have never written ... well, coming up with names can actually be a real hassle. Writers tend to reuse names because it's easier than thinking up new ones.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 6:17 AM

DELIA

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I wonder though..... What if General Wilkins changed his appearance? If Book is actually General Wilkins, as Zoid theorizes, is it possible he changed his appearance to escape his past? If a soldier left the service and became a priest to try to leave his past behind, his profession may not be the only thing he changed.

Ah-ha! I've got it -- Book's hair is obviously his clever disguise! No one would ever look past all that hair to the actual face. It's brilliant.

Kidding.

I like Zoid's theory, always have. Not 100% convinced I agree with it, but I like it.

As for the name. Could be an in-joke (how many can you find if you watch all Joss' shows?). Could just be coincidence. Could have no meaning at all.

And, Zoid, the Mayor wasn't immortal. He was a human who cuts some deals with the right Demons, live 100+ years (eventually taking on the persona of his own grandchild), became (briefly) invincible, and then "ascended" to become a true demon (a giat snake) during the graduation ceremony, only to be destroyed when Buffy lured him into the library and then blew up the school.

Delia

___________________________________________
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.
Spike: It doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 6:57 AM

FORRESTWOLF

I LIKE the hair :) All those snakes...maybe he's a medusa...

Seriously, I like Zoid's theory, too. I know, the name is the same as a big bad in Buffy, but I guess Joss is just reusing names for some wierd writer's reason. I think the idea of Book as Wilkins isn't stopped by the name.

As for the recognition, it's a big 'Verse, and people don't seem to read papers or watch TV (except on space stations and core planets, perhaps) very much. I'd guess that common folk (Serenity's crew included) don't recognize the FACES of people much. Think of modern-day leaders, for that matter, when we all see them on TV. How many US generals can YOU recognize by sight on the street, wearing a priest's collar? I doubt I'd recognize former General Zinni, for instance, of recent note, or even Stormin' Norman. I know such peoples' place in history/current events, but recognize them at a party? I doubt it.

So yes, I think he's somebody big, somebody well-known - thus the ident card scene. General Wilkins? Quite possible. Not certain, but a nifty idea.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 8:00 AM

ZOID

Forrestwolf, et al:

I was actually researching Desert Storm websites because of Schwartzkopf's "Hail Mary" which parallels(?) Wilkins' "deep-flank maneuver". Fortunately, our American BDH's are pretty well properly commemorated; but what might have been the case if Bush and Powell hadn't stopped the carnage and if Schwartzkopf had resigned in an outrage of honor and entered the priesthood for six years? Would the General have become the household name and icon we know him as today? Would an intentional two-week delay in the peace process to maximize enemy casualties have been enough to cause a military leader to resign? Would such a resignation have been publicized, or would the leader have been 'swept under the carpet' of obscurity? And it's not as though the Shepherd calls himself 'Shepherd Wilkins'; in his initial introduction he says "Book. They call me Book", (emphasis mine). Just thankin' about thangs...

BTW, to hear General Richard Wilkins full name, listen very carefully to the Serenity deleted scene -- the only point of which seems to be listing that name -- found on Disk 4 (thanks, Mistress of Tomes and Advanced Mathematical Concepts) of the DVD set. The intriguing bit is that Joss intentionally included that data on the Final Installment of the Firefly story, as the DVD set had to have been considered at the time. Why? (See above, "Joss Whedon, evil genius")

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Much has been made about Book's knowledge of spacecraft, weaponry, hand-to-hand fighting, jurisprudence and criminology. A general officer would certainly know all these things, through application of UCMJ and sitting on courts martial boards...
_________________________________________________

"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."

- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 9:28 AM

DELIA

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Forrestwolf, et al:
BTW, to hear General Richard Wilkins full name, listen very carefully to the Serenity deleted scene -- the only point of which seems to be listing that name -- found on Disk 5 of the DVD set.

Please tell me that you meant disc 4 and that I'm not missing a disc. Please.

___________________________________________
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.
Spike: It doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 9:39 AM

ZOID

Delia wrote:

Quote:
Please tell me that you meant disc 4 and that I'm not missing a disc. Please.

What, you didn't get five? Perhaps I spoke out of turn, and alienated those who only got four...

(zoid goes over to stylish AV rack atop 60" widescreen plasma and counts DVDs: one, two, four, five. yep, five. must be some sort of a conspiracy here.)

Non-Euclideanly,

zoid

P.S.
Please note that I've edited that post in order to avoid detection of the truth (that zoid is a dumbass).

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 9:55 AM

DELIA

Zoid,

The clever edit would work better without my quote from the original right below it.

The question now is, what's on the disc 3 you seem to be missing.

Delia

___________________________________________
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.
Spike: It doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 10:04 AM

ZOID

Delia, Mistress of Tomes and Advanced Mathematical Concepts (like counting):

First it's advanced maths, now proper editorial techniques and comedic art? Please remember I'm only a pitiful ape with opposable thumbs. As Ted Arroway would say, "Small moves, (D)Ellie(a), small moves"...

Delia-eriously,

zoid

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 10:08 AM

FORRESTWOLF

I definitely agree that I find Book as a military officer a very, very likely answer. Maybe not Wilkins (though I LIKE that idea!), and maybe not even a general, but I always assumed watching the show that he was ex-military, and a fairly important officer. I would posit that we can rule out a purely political position, and I doubt he was a spy in his former life - he's just got that purely military bent to his knowledge, if you ask me (as an aside, I wonder who Niska was during the war, if Book knows about him - I mean, if Book was a military officer, why would he know Niska?).

Ramblingly yours,
Forrestwolf

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 10:20 AM

ZOID

Forrestwolf wrote:

Quote:
I mean, if Book was a military officer, why would he know Niska?).

Answering the question with a question, why would a modern general know about Bin Laden and his only quasi-military Al Qaeda?

Respectfully,

zoid

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 10:54 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Only God and JW know for sure; but why change it four times? Why put half of the name in (original script), take the name out of the scene (unrevised pilot), remove the scene entirely (aired pilot) and then put the name back in, in a more complete form than the original script called for (cut-scene on DVD)?

Two Words: Creative Process.

Who knows how many versions there were of the original script before the one we saw (presumably, the one pitched to gorram fox), let alone the versions written before the one they used for actual shooting.

One more word: Exposition. For Firefly, less is definitely more.

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 11:30 AM

ZOID

Channain wrote:

Quote:
One more word: Exposition. For Firefly, less is definitely more.

Ummm, yeah; but I have to ask the question again, why put it back into the last version JW could be certain we'd ever see? Why complete the name in the final version?

To repeat myself -- an annoying habit, I know -- I think Joss dropped the scene originally because he didn't want to give away somebody's secret identity prematurely, figuring he'd have several seasons to reveal it more slowly. When it turned out that F*x was not only killing the show but blocking anybody else from picking it up, JW put it back in (in a more complete form than in any of the previous incarnations) through the DVD set 'back door', to let conspiracy theorists (zoid adjusts tinfoil hat) figure out the mystery.

Either that, or just to drive us (me personally?) stark ravers.

Convolutedly,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."

- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 11:48 AM

TIGERLILY

do you think joss would introduce a link to the buffyverse in the actual environment of the show? if the name is a shout out to his fans, it's one thing. but to suggest or later establish that someone is actually related to the sunnydale wilkins, this is another matter.

this would change the entire universe of firefly to one that includes demons and magic.

i don't see joss doing that, personally.

no aliens, no magic, that's what i says.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 11:53 AM

DELIA

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

Delia, Mistress of Tomes and Advanced Mathematical Concepts (like counting):

First it's advanced maths, now proper editorial techniques and comedic art? Please remember I'm only a pitiful ape with opposable thumbs. As Ted Arroway would say, "Small moves, (D)Ellie(a), small moves"...

Delia-eriously,

zoid

My title is getting longer! Exciting. (Although the comment about the editing was a joke.) And with all the clever puns on Delia, I'm starting to wish it really were my name!

I was going to ask what the reference was to, but that's very un-librarian-like.

So I Google'd it! (Which is more librarian-like than we're really supposed to admit.)

Delia

___________________________________________
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.
Spike: It doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:10 PM

FORRESTWOLF

I agree. The Richard Wilkins of Firefly is NOT the Mayor of Sunnydale. Just an inside joke/reference for Joss fans, I guess. I wish he hadn't used it, personally...confuses the issue to no end.

Zoid: I do think Book's likely to be Wilkins (not certain, just likely). I'm actually just wondering what the connection IS with Niska, not whether it's realistic - I'm sure Wilkins COULD know Niska by reputation. Perhaps Niska did some shady deals with the Alliance (maybe Bin Laden's not such a bad example, though we'll save politicking for the nifty new forum :) during the war - torture by Alliance troops is something that's been discussed elsewhere here.

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Monday, June 7, 2004 8:25 PM

FFYING2

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
If Book isn't Wilkins, then Joss is a very wicked man indeed. Although I've also been toying with the idea that Jayne's been playing possum ("Pretentious?")...

Well if you want some (but not all) spoilers about Book's past, almost straight from Adam Baldwin (from his meeting with, now deceased, fan Lux Lucre), click below.

Nothing we haven't already suspected, and nothing too specific, but...

*HERE BE SPOILERS*
http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages?msg=8299.53

Ying
Firefly Funsite http://fireflyfunsite.home.att.net
Firefly Chinese Pinyinary http://fireflychinese.home.att.net

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Monday, June 7, 2004 11:47 PM

ZOID

ffying2 wrote:

Quote:
Well if you want some (but not all) spoilers about Book's past, almost straight from Adam Baldwin (from his meeting with, now deceased, fan Lux Lucre), click below.

Nothing we haven't already suspected, and nothing too specific, but...

Yeah, I had read that. However, it is very rare that an actor knows the full storyline of his own character before the fact of having a script in hand, let alone knowing the intimate details of another character in advance. Good directors (including, methinks, Joss Whedon) like to keep their actors 'in the dark' about plot mysteries, in order to get true performances along the way. Some actors (including the talented Mr. Baldwin) can still pull off 'puzzlement' even when they know the full backstory of a mysterious character they are interacting with; but usually the director/exec producer/creator just keeps the mysteries under his hat(s). The only people who know the full story are those with "need to know", as they say in classification-speak.

At this point, I'd be willing to bet that number includes only JW, Tim Minear, possibly Chris Buchanan and one or two other people, none of which are actors. The good news is that JW has indicated that he will illuminate Book's and Inara's backstory in the first movie. Soon, all will be revealed...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 317 days, 19 hours, 19 minutes, and 43 seconds left until The BDM!

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 12:55 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Try as I might, I've never been able to latch on to Buffy or Angel intellectually. Therefore, I'd never heard of Sunnyvale, let alone knew that it has an immortal(?) mayor serially named Richard Wilkins. Might Joss have created a character in Firefly with the same name? Might he have used the name as an in-joke?

I have to point out that Buffy's home town is SunnyDale, not Sunnyvale. I have to point this out because there really is a Sunnyvale California. I live there and we ain't got no vampires or slayers. Dammit.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 1:33 AM

GUNHAND

Yeah all the vampires are really in Santa Clara. Oops, I said too much.

I'm still going with what I said on here, ummm somewhere up there.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 2:19 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Try as I might, I've never been able to latch on to Buffy or Angel intellectually. Therefore, I'd never heard of Sunnyvale, let alone knew that it has an immortal(?) mayor serially named Richard Wilkins. Might Joss have created a character in Firefly with the same name? Might he have used the name as an in-joke?
I have to point out that Buffy's home town is SunnyDale, not Sunnyvale. I have to point this out because there really is a Sunnyvale California. I live there and we ain't got no vampires or slayers. Dammit.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

And Drakon should know as he has been sitting in cemeteries w/ a stake and a flashlight every night for the past three years.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 5:07 AM

HKCAVALIER

Just a thought:

The general populous may not know what this or that general looks like, but wouldn't Malcolm Reynolds know the face of the guy that perpetrated the Serenity Valley Massacre?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 11:31 AM

ZOID

HKCavalier wrote:

Quote:
The general populous may not know what this or that general looks like, but wouldn't Malcolm Reynolds know the face of the guy that perpetrated the Serenity Valley Massacre?

I don't think it's ever been referred to as a 'massacre'. Remember, in the opening scene of the pilot, Mal's convinced his side is going to win, right up to the point he's ordered to lay down arms.

The deleted scene that divulges the information on the Battle of Serenity simply says that Gen. Wilkins devised a "deep-flank maneuver" that eventually led to the defeat of the Independent armies. This means that the Independents were defeated fair and square: they got outflanked. It happens.

Zoe goes on to fill in the details. The survivors of the battle -- victor and vanquished alike -- got left without food, water, and medical aid for an additional two weeks, while the armistice was negotiated. Two weeks!? Without food, potable water and personnel dying of sepsis from even minor wounds, it must have approximated Hell.

A telling bit of dialogue on the horrors of the post-battle carnage comes not from the participants, but from River and Simon's child's play reenactment of the battle in "Safe":

YOUNG RIVER
Our platoon, Simon. We got outflanked
by the independent squad, and we're never
gonna make it back to our platoon.
(beat)
We need to resort to cannibalism.

YOUNG SIMON
That was fast. Don't we have rations
or anything?

YOUNG RIVER
They got lost. We're gonna have to eat
the men.

I believe cannibalism did occur after the battle, as well as other horrors too unthinkable to mention (especially since I've mentioned 'em before; don't wanna sound too much like a broken record). That's why Mal has forsaken God. Anyone living through that nightmare must certainly have come to the conclusion that God had forsaken them.

So, I don't think Mal necessarily blames either side's military leaders for the worst of the carnage that took place on Hera, in that valley. He blames the politicians for leaving them to suffer and die, and he blames God.

BTW, it was River's fanciful mention in that same scene that the Independents "were using dinosaurs", combined with Wash's love of toy dinos, that made me think of the "Cretaceous Park" business venture for Wash and Jayne...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 317 days, 7 hours, 35 minutes, and 30 seconds left until The BDM!

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