Kaylee the Barbarian by manwithpez

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Kaylee the Barbarian

POSTED BY: MANWITHPEZ
UPDATED: Monday, June 7, 2004 04:37
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3796
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Friday, June 4, 2004 4:38 AM

Important people don't do field work.

I think it would be so shiny if Kaylee got a badass moment in one of the upcoming films. Let her bash someone's head in and then blow the go se out of someone with one of Jayne's huge guns...Vera perhaps! I think she deserves that moment after all the cowering she's done. It doesn't bother me that couldn't go through with any of that before, but, I think let someone do something bad to Serenity, and I think she would let loose.

Be kinda neat to see, I think.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, June 4, 2004 4:46 AM

HOAGIE

eh, on the one hand seeing Kaylee go all primal would be interesting and would probably make the audience feel good after... whatever made her snap (True Romance anyone?) but i think a short spate of feel-good violence would only cloude Kaylee's character.

Nathan Fillion (i think) said it best on the commentary for War Stories when he said "It breaks my heart to see Kaylee with a gun." That stuck with me for a while since Kaylee is the warm little center the rest of the ship crowds around. she is strong but at the same time is not Zoe, nor does she need to be. i think that it would probably ruin Kaylee's fragile eggshell mind were she to go off on someone physically. it might even make Jayne afraid of her!

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Friday, June 4, 2004 4:46 AM

ASTRIANA

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

*ahem*

Okay, now that that's out of my system, lemme 'splain... No, is too much, lemme sum up:

For Kaylee to do anything like this would destroy the fundamental nature of who she is and her function on the ship. Once you've killed someone, or visited violence upon them, you never quite go back. It changes you, instrinsically and permanently. Like Mal said in OiS: "I got no problem with the notion o' you not killing folk."

~A~
El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems...

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, June 4, 2004 4:50 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

I'm only saying that I think it rests in her, the meekest character in the show, more so than some of the "stronger" ones. Wash already had his moment...Let Kaylee have hers...Then, let her deal with it. I don't think it would destroy the character, but, it would give one pause. Maybe its a bad idea to begin with. Its not like I influence anything anyway.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, June 4, 2004 4:57 AM

ASTRIANA

I see your point, and at the same time, I just can't imagine Kaylee ever being able to go back to being the cheery, innocent, unblemished soul of hope that she currently is for Serenity and her crew.

~A~
El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems...

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, June 4, 2004 5:01 AM

WREN

Quote:
Originally posted by Astriana:
I see your point, and at the same time, I just can't imagine Kaylee ever being able to go back to being the cheery, innocent, unblemished soul of hope that she currently is for Serenity and her crew.

After her experience with Jubal I wonder whether she is still a cheerful unblemished soul

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Friday, June 4, 2004 5:13 AM

ASTRIANA

Good point. That may be something that is addressed in the BDM, since the timing is set after OiS. I always did wonder what something like that might do. Goodness knows I stay creeped out enough after that scene, and I wasn't even there - much less the person being threatened with such cold precision.

Actually, we really didn't get to see any of the aftermath of Early's visit, except Mal's apparent acceptance of River aboard the ship. Any other fallout of that experience was left to us.

*begins vehemently cursing f*x tv*

~A~
El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems...

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, June 4, 2004 5:23 AM

HKCAVALIER

I think Kaylee defines the difference between innocence and naïveté. When Jubal terrorized her she knew perfectly well what he was getting at. What's wonderful about Kaylee is that she has obviously "been around," but she hasn't let her troubles get the better of her. She remains innocent without being naïve.

I don't think she's a person who could tollerate inflicting pain on another person. I think she see's the extraordinary risks the other crew members go to to protect eachother and she feels like she should "do her share," but I think she does her part by being true to herself.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, June 4, 2004 6:42 AM

TERRIBLETINK

I don't see the need for Kaylee to get tough all of a sudden. I mean, it's a very logical argument to say that with this crew's lifestyle that anyone on that ship would have to eventually learn to defend themselves. But part of what makes FF great is the perfect balance of characters, and I think Kaylee needs to stay sweet and shiny because it would throw off this balance if she changes.

-------------------------------------------------
"I'll be in my bunk."

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Friday, June 4, 2004 6:57 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
I think it would be so shiny if Kaylee got a badass moment in one of the upcoming films. Let her bash someone's head in and then blow the go se out of someone with one of Jayne's huge guns...Vera perhaps! I think she deserves that moment after all the cowering she's done. It doesn't bother me that couldn't go through with any of that before, but, I think let someone do something bad to Serenity, and I think she would let loose.

Be kinda neat to see, I think.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

Sorry, I just can't see Kaylee going all postal on anyone. It is just not in her nature.

Remember in War Stories how when the Simon & Book moved into the hall to cover Zoe, Wash & Jayne, and Niska's goons closed on the docking bay? When Kaylee saw them, she was obviously terrified and ran back into Serenity where she was promplty pinned down. If not for River, Niska's goons would have taken Serenity.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Friday, June 4, 2004 9:30 AM

ZOID

Wren wrote, in response to Astriana:

Quote:
Originally posted by Astriana:
I see your point, and at the same time, I just can't imagine Kaylee ever being able to go back to being the cheery, innocent, unblemished soul of hope that she currently is for Serenity and her crew.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After her experience with Jubal I wonder whether she is still a cheerful unblemished soul

I, too have pondered -- and speculatively written -- what affects Early's threatened rape of Kaylee would have on her psyche. I wrote that I could see her protecting herself in a similar situation in the future.

But, I've changed my mind. She knew what was at stake that first time, and submitted to it. When she was freed, she didn't go ballistic, she crept about fearfully (if nonetheless bravely) carrying out River's instructions. At the end of the episode, she is happily and innocently playing jacks with River, again. I don't think her ordeal with Early will have a lasting effect on her sunny disposition.

What the ordeal did do was to heal the psychic rift between Kaylee and River that had been growing since "War Stories". At the end of OiS, they're friends again. Kaylee seems to no longer view River as a potential menace, as she had suspected and told the crew at the beginning of the ep; but rather as a protector of Serenity and her crew. They appear to be friendly and comfortable together again. This is one of my favorite scenes from the series:

KAYLEE (O.S.)
And his folks come by to fetch him, and
it turns out he's, like, 14 years old.

PAN LEFT to REVEAL Kaylee and River sitting on the cargo bay floor. They're playing jacks.

KAYLEE
(laughs)
I mean, he must've been some kind of genetic
experiment, 'cause, I swear this guy was, uh...
(waggles eyebrows)
Oh, my daddy whipped me so hard.
Kaylee bounces the ball and picks up some jacks.

KAYLEE
Oh... I'm at fours. Let's see you match that.
River takes the ball, looks hard at the jacks on the floor.

RIVER
I can win this.

KAYLEE
Oh, I'm hearin' a lot of talk there, genius.
Come on -- show me what you got.

CLOSE IN on River's face as she stares at the little rubber ball.

(Emphases mine)

The last bit of that script, "CLOSE IN..." was fascinating. As she looks at the ball, I swear it looks like a planet, a simulacrum of Jupiter. "I can win this." (*shiver*)

The first time I saw that scene, I swear I felt an almost electric shock course through me. Then she drops the 'planet' and we follow its fall to the floor, where it rebounds, but our viewpoint continues through the decking to the darkness of space...

God, I love Firefly! (Have I said that too many times?) Come on movie!

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."

- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Friday, June 4, 2004 9:44 AM

SKYDANCE

"I see your point, and at the same time, I just can't imagine Kaylee ever being able to go back to being the cheery, innocent, unblemished soul of hope that she currently is for Serenity and her crew."

Life happens, whether we want it to or not.

Mal's crew gets put in harm's way on a weekly basis. Kaylee stared death in the face, and fell to the floor weeping (then River picks up the gun and saves her). She has also stared into the face of something arguably worse than death (with Early).

In both cases, it was her. In both cases, she knew she had no chance to fight back.

If she was faced with the loss of someone else, would she sacrifice herself to save him or her? Joss might surprise us with that, some day -- my crystal ball doesn't say anything on the subject. My guess is that Kaylee would continue to collapse, but I don't have the talent for telling stories that Joss does.

Another possibility lies buried in the quote ManWithPez uses:

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

Mal doesn't fight because he thinks he's going to win; he fights because someone has to. Simon understands that, I think. In a similar way, he sacrificed everything to rescue River because someone had to.

Even as Simon learns about relationships from Kaylee, it might turn out that Kaylee learns from Simon why you have to take a stand (why some things are important, even if nobody else seems to think they are).

Or not. But Life has a way of turning Innocence into History, and Joss has a way of telling stories about Life.

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Friday, June 4, 2004 9:53 AM

ASTRIANA

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
But, I've changed my mind. She knew what was at stake that first time, and submitted to it. When she was freed, she didn't go ballistic, she crept about fearfully (if nonetheless bravely) carrying out River's instructions. At the end of the episode, she is happily and innocently playing jacks with River, again. I don't think her ordeal with Early will have a lasting effect on her sunny disposition.

<< snippety-snip >>

The last bit of that script, "CLOSE IN..." was fascinating. As she looks at the ball, I swear it looks like a planet, a simulacrum of Jupiter. "I can win this." (*shiver*)

The first time I saw that scene, I swear I felt an almost electric shock course through me. Then she drops the 'planet' and we follow its fall to the floor, where it rebounds, but our viewpoint continues through the decking to the darkness of space...

I'm sure that it will affect her for a while, but she can overcome it. I just wonder how long she'll suffer from nightmares and being afraid when she's alone, whether she'll confide in anyone else about what Early did, and whether Simon will approach her about it - since he and River would be the only ones who knew what Early had done. These things can take a while to heal over.

About that rubber ball... If you take a close look at the planet shot at the very beginning of OiS, you'll notice that the ball River and Kaylee are playing jacks with at the end is exactly the same. To put it another way, the planet looks exactly like the rubber ball. (I'd almost swear I could see the molding lines in it if I looked close enough...

) That Joss - always puttin' in the layers an' makin' us think. *starry-eyed sigh*

~A~
El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems...

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, June 4, 2004 9:55 AM

TERRIBLETINK

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

The last bit of that script, "CLOSE IN..." was fascinating. As she looks at the ball, I swear it looks like a planet, a simulacrum of Jupiter. "I can win this." (*shiver*)

The ball matches the planet they show at the very beginning of the episode. It's a really cool arc.

----------------------------------------------
"I'll be in my bunk."

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Friday, June 4, 2004 10:05 AM

BIKISDAD

I agree with Browncoat1: It's not in her nature. There are, believe it or not, a small number of people who just do not, for whatever reason, have a "violence gene". I think Kaylee is one of these Mother Teresa-like individuals (now, will you guys ever think of her sexually again?). As (I think - maybe it was someone else) Zoid mentioned above, she showed her true nature in "War Stories". If she wasn't going to be violent then, when would she be...?

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Friday, June 4, 2004 10:07 AM

ZOID

terribletink wrote (several times):

Quote:
The ball matches the planet they show at the very beginning of the episode. It's a really cool arc.

zoid keys up microphone and broadcasts, "terribletink, I say again, you are loud and clear. Over?" and unkeys the mic.

As to what you said, as opposed to how many times you said it (heh-heh), yeah, it's the basis for my 'future quote' series.

Redundantly,

zoid

Redundantly,

zoid

Redundantly,

zoid

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Friday, June 4, 2004 10:19 AM

TERRIBLETINK

sorry for the multiple posts...don't know why that happens sometimes...third time now.

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Friday, June 4, 2004 10:29 AM

ASTRIANA

No biggie. Looks like the website gremlins ate the extra posts, though, so it should still be okay...

~A~
El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems...

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, June 4, 2004 10:54 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
I think it would be so shiny if Kaylee got a badass moment in one of the upcoming films.

Perhaps after Simon puts a needle in a vein and says 'Time to wake up'?

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Friday, June 4, 2004 2:36 PM

ZOID

terribletink:

Hey, no problem. I actually love it when that happens (as long as it doesn't happen to me). Very funny.

Jossingly,

zoid

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Friday, June 4, 2004 2:54 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

The thing about Kaylee that kinda bothers me, other than her rather oversensitivity when it comes to Simon, is not her apparent cowardice. That don't bug me at all. Its part of her character, and I agree with Mal when he says "I'm fine with the notion of you not killing anyone, Kaylee."

It was a line in Jaynestown that prefaced Kaylee's two other collapse in the face of adversity. At the end of the episode, she says to Simon "You ain't weak. You couldn't beat 'em back?" The line in and of itself may have been Kaylee's way of encouraging Simon to not be so stiff that he just takes an ass whoopin'. But, taken another way, it could almost mean that Kaylee thinks she may be stronger than Simon because she's not so proper. But when the time comes, she buckles, like a belt, and can't follow Simon onto Niska's skyplex. Taken another way, that line could mean that Simon is not nearly as strong as the other male role models in her life. Either way, that line doesn't make Simon out to be a strong character.

Kaylee is a complex character. I think the character could get away with defending someone on the ship, or the ship itself, but, I think the push that would make her do that would have to be horrible. But, I don't think its the kind of thing she couldn't bounce back from, and it would be the kind of high drama Joss Whedon is known for.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I'm all hungover.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, June 4, 2004 6:21 PM

ALIENZOOKEEPER

Amen, sister!

Like the Bride reference too. I wonder if Whedon is a fan of The Princess Bride?

vince the alien zookeeper

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Friday, June 4, 2004 7:05 PM

FIREFLYTHEMOVIE

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
The thing about Kaylee that kinda bothers me, ...was a line in Jaynestown that prefaced Kaylee's two other collapse in the face of adversity. At the end of the episode, she says to Simon "You ain't weak. You couldn't beat 'em back?"

I disagree. There's looks like a contradiction on the surface, but I don't see this as out of character at all. I think if someone just started hitting her, she'd fight back, regardless of how strong they were. There's a huge difference between a bar fight and a threat of rape. And a huge difference between those two things and being alone with a gun you don't know how to use with bullets whizzing around your head.

It's also possible that Kaylee had never been in such a threatening situation before, and had no idea how she would've reacted. I'm not entirely proud of how I reacted when I thought someone was going to kill me (i.e., hardly fought back at all, basically just went into shock). Both of the threatening-to-Kaylee scenes were after the scene with Simon.

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Saturday, June 5, 2004 6:54 PM

SHINYSEVEN

About The Princess Bride: I always assumed that was why Wesley is called...Wesley. I suppose it's possible that his parents were ardent Methodists, but not very likely.

Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose

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Saturday, June 5, 2004 7:04 PM

ALIENZOOKEEPER

I don't know. The math doesn't work for the Movie, though i guess it does for the book. Oh well. I always think of the movie, myself, but this is one case where the book and the movie compliment each other. If anyone had only seen Rob Reiner's movie version, go read the book!

vince the alien zookeeper

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 7:44 AM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Quote:
Originally posted by Astriana:

Okay, now that that's out of my system, lemme 'splain... No, is too much, lemme sum up:

for saying that... you have just become my "most favoritest" person of the day!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

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Monday, June 7, 2004 4:37 AM

ASTRIANA

Gee, thanks!

The Princess Bride is one of my husband's and my favorite movies. I've never read the book, but it's on my list.

~A~
El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems...

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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