What was River for? by Aliasse

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What was River for?

POSTED BY: ALIASSE
UPDATED: Sunday, May 3, 2009 23:52
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Friday, May 1, 2009 10:54 AM

Yes, another question. (And yes, I am intending to snaffle all the best, most original and well-informed ideas and shamelessly use them in my fics. Just so you know.)

Well, this one is: what exactly do you think River was being designed to do? We know she was a weapon and no power in the Verse could stop her. But to do what?

Also, was she the only one? She says 'they're hurting us'. Was a whole fleet of River-esque psychic assassins going to be unleashed somewhere, to do something?

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Friday, May 1, 2009 11:11 AM

ZEEK

Not the only one. At the beginning of the movie they said "our best subject" or something along those lines. There must have been others of varying degrees of success. I think she was being developed as basically a better operative. She would have better combat skills and her psychic abilities could be used in a number of situations. Obviously they'd need her to be more stable to do the job though.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 11:27 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Obviously they'd need her to be more stable to do the job though.

To go undercover, certainly.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, May 1, 2009 11:31 AM

ALIASSE

But no one particular mission?

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Friday, May 1, 2009 11:56 AM

KINROEDARKSTONE

If F*x had let Joss keep going, that might have been revealed.

--------------
Mal: Cry Baby cry.
Wash: Make your mother sigh. Engaging the CryBaby.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 12:25 PM

BYTEMITE

I think maybe when she wasn't doing spy work or assassinations on the dime of the military and Blue Sun, she might have been trained to work as a one woman pre-crime swat team.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 1:00 PM

NCBROWNCOAT

In addition those mentioned, I've always liked the idea that she and her cohorts would have been delpoyed against the Reavers.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Friday, May 1, 2009 1:17 PM

RIPWASH

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
In addition those mentioned, I've always liked the idea that she and her cohorts would have been delpoyed against the Reavers.

That was my thought as well. The Academy was developing perfect weapons to deploy against and eliminate the Reavers quickly and easily in order to keep Miranda a secret forever. Once the Alliance clean-up crews could get past Reaver Territory, that is once the Weapons had done their job, to get to Miranda and start the cleaning-up/hiding process.

Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

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Friday, May 1, 2009 2:23 PM

BYTEMITE

At the risk of sounding like a cold hearted bastard, mostly because I'm paraphrasing what some Alliance or corporate project manager might think, it seems like a waste to not use the psychic weapons against real people.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 2:37 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
At the risk of sounding like a cold hearted bastard, mostly because I'm paraphrasing what some Alliance or corporate project manager might think, it seems like a waste to not use the psychic weapons against real people.

I think what you say makes perfect sense to me. Why waste your best weapons on Reavers. It seems to me that the Alliance could easily wipe out he Reavers with conventional forces, but that would require that they acknowledge their existence. I guess if the idea was to get rid of the Reavers while pretending they don't exist, River's abilities might be useful.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:17 PM

SCHISM

Here's a question.....was River ALWAYS a pyschic?

We know she was smart.

She was REALLY smart.

But was she a psychic BEFORE the Alliance dinked with her head?

Despite it's futuristic setting, the 'Verse is fairly grounded in realism, and there's not an over-abundance of (real) psychics about. Do you think the Alliance exploited her brain to create such abilities, or do you think they were always there?

This may have been established in the series.
I just can't recall.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:58 PM

BYTEMITE

I think they made her.

However, sometimes logic and intuition can work together to create some uncanny semblance of empathy and precognizance. It's not true psychic ability, but some mistake it as such. Young River may have had enough logic and intuition that she displayed these qualities.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:59 PM

TRAVELER

The hint is that River is exceptional. So she may be used many purposes. An operative. They must come from somewhere. She would be more advanced and would not care much about Miranda. She would be so programed that a few thousand souls dieing for the cause would be justified. Simon got her out in time to prevent that. The fight in the bar makes it obvious she had training to kill. Her psychic ability appears to have been her own. So that was just a bonus. How they were going to use it is another question.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, May 1, 2009 5:10 PM

BYTEMITE

Mmm, the fact they stripped their amygdala and tinkered with her brain suggests they were trying to create psychic ability. The amygdala doesn't have much use in programming or training. So I disagree that she was psychic beforehand, at least to the extent she is in the series and movie. The flashback in Safe may or may not suggest she had some oracle-like ability prior to her surgeries, but I see it more as her playing. After all, Wash's fate in Serenity wasn't in the original version of the script.

A new an improved operative River is possible, though.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 7:57 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:
Here's a question.....was River ALWAYS a pyschic?

No. She was perceptive and intuitive and brilliant, not to mention being a creature of extraordinary grace. She was a prime subject to muck about with, increase the sensitivities to make her, as Dr. Mathias said, truly psychic. She was a prime subject for retaining information, both mental and physical. She was their best subject, their greatest success.

I highly recommend watching the R. Tam sessions. They can be found online or in the special edition of Serenity. Joss wrote and even appears in them, and they are considered canon. They chart some of her progress though the program. One of the sessions from when she's still sane and whole includes reference to her intuition/insight. Simon is always upset when she can tell which girls he likes.

[/sig]

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Friday, May 1, 2009 9:31 PM

ANOTHERSKY

PheonixRose just nailed it.

Take a profoundly intellectually/physically gifted, strong-willed empath and dink around with her brain in scifi ways...voila! A psychic assasin/spy/operative/courier/political bouncer/anything.
My personal opninion is that she would be useful undercover, as Wash's line proves: "Wait, start with the part where a 90 pound girl knocks Jayne down..".

they've also been at this a while: "the first one, he died on the table..." (R. Tam sessions)

I'm actually working on a fic that deals with this question in some ways. The R. Tam sessions have a world of info in them, they really fill in some gaps.

I have two questions--did anyone else get a weird Ender's Game vibe from Dr. Mathias/R.Tam sessions? They're doing such good work.

Second: Since Operatives were already operating (lol), with River were they "mass-producing" an Operative type job that would be on the political/commercial/military payroll instead of outside it, or are they working on something different with River and the other subjects?
To me, the Operative seems pretty darn effective---if his job is to squish opposition now so the Alliance/Blue Sun/ whoever he works for can unite the worlds, would River & co. be to keep it that way and weed out budding opposition in the "perfect world"?

Or is it just a commentary on the evils of science and government doing things sheerly because they can, motivated by the power it brings them?

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 12:14 AM

ALIASSE

Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
[The Academy was developing perfect weapons to deploy against and eliminate the Reavers quickly and easily in order to keep Miranda a secret forever. Once the Alliance clean-up crews could get past Reaver Territory, that is once the Weapons had done their job, to get to Miranda and start the cleaning-up/hiding process.

Yes, I was thinking that. The battle on Mr Universe's moon would have given the Alliance a nice little unexpected trial of their experiment.

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 12:17 AM

ALIASSE

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
it seems like a waste to not use the psychic weapons against real people.

Horribly, it does make me wonder if there's an analogy with Nazi doctors like Mengele. The Academy/Blue Hands might have started out with a general idea of training gifted individuals to clean up the Reavers, and then just got carried out with the joy of experimenting on them - what will a mind like this do? - without having a specific use of their psychic powers in mind. River would have been delicious for those sorts of psychos.

Also, do you remember in the River Tam sessions she says that she hasn't got a mission: does she know that she's being tampered with to no end? Would having a mission make it at least make sense to her?

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 12:30 AM

ALIASSE

Quote:
Originally posted by AnotherSky:

I'm actually working on a fic that deals with this question in some ways.

Or is it just a commentary on the evils of science and government doing things sheerly because they can, motivated by the power it brings them?

I'll be looking out for your fic!

I just got to the second comment I quote here, which fits with what I've just said about Nazi doctors.

I have a very specific idea for what they were to be used for, but I don't want to spoil my amazingly brilliant series for you. (Hint: think of what MIRANDA was for as well as what the psychic assassins were for? Why is it, if the Alliance called for settlers just before the war, that when Serenity got there 12 years later there had been MILLIONS of people living there, in an apparently technologically advanced and relatively wealthy environment? This wasn't your normal Rim, settler world. I find Bluesuncompanyman's blog on all of this really fascinating: the analogy with 18th Century England, comparing England with Londinium, and theh fact that England's wealth was formed as a result of the English way of exploiting whoever they came across, including slavery. Slavery. Hint hint.)

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 7:39 PM

ANOTHERSKY

Aliasse: Neat idea. I ALWAYS WONDERED about that call Kaylee mentioned--it didn't fit but I just thought that only part of the planet was all civilized, and it would have been difficult to get (again, like England) people who were all entrenched in their modern cities to leave and settle the rest of it. Easier to pull in settlers from the Border or Rim whose lives weren't quite so plush. Sounded sinister anyway. just think, Kaylee could have ended up on Miranda instead of a junky firefly.

"doesn't have a mission": River at this point "knows"--there's so many layers of irony going on here it's amazing.
She also seems sick with frustration. Pain, boredom, cuts with all ties, fear and a mind like hers would be more than enough to get her there. I'd say more but I'M writing a fic...ha. Good luck on your "amazingly brilliant series".

Related question: What do people think about River's "school" scenes--are they Academy, Miranda, or both?

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Saturday, May 2, 2009 8:16 PM

BYTEMITE

Kaylee does mention that the Alliance circulated a brochure for Miranda to some of the Rim Worlds.

Also, at the start of Shindig, slavery is mentioned as the primary mode of replacement when death occurs among terraforming crews. Which is apparently (and not surprisingly) a dangerous occupation.

I think Dr. Mathias is using River's own memories, revisited in dreams, to control her learning while she's asleep. It would explain the younger River in that classroom.

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 4:53 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:
Here's a question.....was River ALWAYS a pyschic?

We know she was smart.

She was REALLY smart.

But was she a psychic BEFORE the Alliance dinked with her head?

Despite it's futuristic setting, the 'Verse is fairly grounded in realism, and there's not an over-abundance of (real) psychics about. Do you think the Alliance exploited her brain to create such abilities, or do you think they were always there?

This may have been established in the series.
I just can't recall.

I thnk she always had some kind of psychic ability. If you go back to "Safe";when the teacher is asking whether she had spoken to Ruby,he was about to say that River had always been good at reading people.

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 7:12 AM

LEOPARDFLAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I think Dr. Mathias is using River's own memories, revisited in dreams, to control her learning while she's asleep. It would explain the younger River in that classroom.

Yes, but if he was controlling her dream, surely she wouldn't have been dreaming of her discontent with how they were 'meddlers', following with the nap reflecting Miranda, but about whatever he would have wanted to teach her that night? The generality is explained, yes, but the specifics of the dream don't follow your theory, I don't think.

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 7:52 AM

BYTEMITE

Maybe 500 years in the future is different, but right now, the most we can control in people's brains is stimulating some center or another to cause some kind of emotional response.

Dreams are a random firing of synapses, impossible to control, but you could influence them by stimulating certain emotions.

It's also possible that River is resisting the message of the training, which seems to be that the Alliance is good and never wrong, and this prompts the doctors working on her to up her dosage.

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 7:53 AM

LEOPARDFLAN

-nods- that works ^_^

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 8:52 AM

ALIASSE

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Kaylee does mention that the Alliance circulated a brochure for Miranda to some of the Rim Worlds.

B]

It really doesn't matter to me that Kaylee remembering anything might not work, except for the fact of trying to write canon when writing fics, and if canon is a bit off then the fic is a bit off. Do you know what I mean? Anyway, what I think might not work is Kaylee remembering the call for settlers - because wouldn't she have been quite a young child? And why would something like that matter to a child enough for them to remember?

Unless the Alliance promoted settlement to Miranda in a really big and different way than it did settlement to other planets. (And her parents considered responding to the call: as you said, Anothersky - spooky to think of them ending up on Miranda). Which would fit in with my theory. I guess I'll just come out and say it - that Miranda would have been planned as the hub of a whole outer rim of slave worlds designed to sustain the Core in the life to which it had become accustomed. And the psychic assassins were to control those slave worlds. Then the psychic ability as well as the fighting ability is relevant. That's just my idea though.

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Sunday, May 3, 2009 11:52 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

My guess is that they were prepping her for a possible war. Remember, there were plenty of Browncoats who surrendered that faithful day in Serenity Valley. And there were probably many like Mal who felt that it was better to fight another day. (may have been the losing side....)

She was one of many being conditioned into becoming lethal weapons at the beck and call of the Alliance. Perhaps to be used to infiltrate splinter groups of BC throughout the Verse. Such as the group that busted her out of the Blue Sun facility. It would be interesting to find out who that crew was.

From the way the Hands of Blue men disposed of the Alliance soldiers, it looks like they trusted no one. The group that helped Simon were Freedom Fighters and probably had several factions throughout the verse.

I hope that one day Joss gets to finish that story.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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