Simon's Heart by manwithpez

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Simon's Heart

POSTED BY: MANWITHPEZ
UPDATED: Thursday, June 10, 2004 12:04
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VIEWED: 3551
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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 11:08 AM

Important people don't do field work.

You know, I think Simon is the one person on the show that gets crapped on the most. His sister is a little mentally ill, and this is the relationship that is the most rewarding. He is honestly having to answer for her every move to the very unsympathetic captain. And Kaylee...No love there. Simon almost never tries to be mean on that show, but Kaylee certainly does. Jayne...Well, that one's obvious. What's even stranger is that in some scenes, Jayne seems to either actually like Simon, or he's just really remorseful over what he did. Or, he wants Mal to see that he's trying to be remorseful. Inara is consistently nice to him, but she didn't back him up in Safe. Has anyone on the ship figured that maybe Kaylee's feelings are a little too easy to hurt.

I can see the scene now. Simon gets a shot at Inara, but can't go through with it because of his feelings for Kaylee, walks to her room to hear her grunting...and Jayne walks out. That'd be right around some Joss Whedon crap right there.

I doubt this kind of high drama in these relationships is going to happen in the movie. But, I gotta admit that the need to write some fanfic may overcome me in the future.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 11:46 AM

HOAGIE

ooooh, that would be interesting. implausible, but interesting. i can definately see a Joss twist kind of story like that being possible, downright probable actually, but not with Jayne. It could have happened with Tracey in The Message, and she was at least entertaining the idea in Heart of Gold (oh look, they have boy whores!) but i think that Jayne sees Kaylee more as a little sister, or at least whatever passes for hands-off in Jayne's little world. Kaylee has gotten disgusted by Jayne more than once so she prolly wouldn't go there either.

As far as Simon goes, yeah, he usually means to be nice, but he has chronic "foot in mouth" disease. his intentions are pure, but he clings so hard to what he was that it's hard for him to adapt to what he needs to be in this new environment.

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 1:49 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Yes, as far as the show goes right now, it would never happen. But, all I'm saying is that Joss Whedon, Jane Espenson, Marti Noxon, Tim Minear, Ben Edlund, and the rest, they love doing crap like that. Granted, the thrill of knowing that you're audiences jaw is on the floor must be a powerful temptation to mess with your characters, but come on:
When Buffy first started, do you think they werwe thinking "Let's have Buffy sleep with Spike." or "Let's pair Cordelia up with Xander." or over on Angel "Let's have Angel sleep with Darla and she'll get pregnant." or "Let's have Wesley fall for Fred, but, she'll of course choose to be with Gunn"

Its what makes the shows worth viewing. If they weren't character driven, why watch them. Especially Angel, since its the most character driven of the three. All I'm saying is don't rule too much out. These guys like to mess with people, and enjoy doing it. I enjoy it when they do it too.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 2:52 PM

MER

What I don't get is everybody's reactions toward Simon. Everything he says it could be taken as an insult and all of sudden everybody's very senstive. I wonder if it's because of his background. Also, Kaylee should know that she shouldn't take him so seriously if he's put his "foot in his mouth" more than once.

*shakes head* Poor Simon. I would like to see the relationship possibilities in the future(especially Jayne). They're fun *laughs*

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 4:10 PM

GRACEOM

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
Has anyone on the ship figured that maybe Kaylee's feelings are a little too easy to hurt.

No I don't think they have. After all, both Mal and Jayne have made oafish comments to her too, and been mystified by the reaction.

She is insecure, and it's too bad, since she is universally loved and admired by all who know her. It's a pity she can't see the difference between Simon letting something stupid slip though he would never deliberately hurt her, and those nasty girls in Shindig who reeled her in with sweetness just for the purpose of watching her face fall when they turned around and insulted her.

Quote:

I can see the scene now. Simon gets a shot at Inara, but can't go through with it because of his feelings for Kaylee, walks to her room to hear her grunting...and Jayne walks out. That'd be right around some Joss Whedon crap right there.

::cringe:: Sadly, I could just see this from the man who brought us Cordy and Conner

Quote:
I doubt this kind of high drama in these relationships is going to happen in the movie. But, I gotta admit that the need to write some fanfic may overcome me in the future.

Go with Simon/Inara and forget the Kaylee/Jayne. Please

Grace

I think it's interesting that of all the characters on Serenity (with the possible exception of River, and I'm not sure about her) who didn't *choose* the peripatetic life they're living. He never whines about what he's lost, so why beat him up so for occasionally wishing he could be living the life he had planned?

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 5:32 AM

DELIA

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
When Buffy first started, do you think they werwe thinking "Let's have Buffy sleep with Spike." or "Let's pair Cordelia up with Xander."

Actually, there's a printed denial that Buffy would wind up with Spike. If you've got the Entertainment Weekly from the end of third season, when they review every episode, they ask Sarah Michelle Geller who her dream date for Buffy is and she says "Spike." Joss' response is "No more vampires!" So I guess he changed his mind at some point.

I really do wonder where these characters would all have ended up in five years.

Delia

___________________________________________
Angel: People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do.
Hamilton: Yeah, but we won't care.

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 5:48 AM

HOAGIE

that's really interesting to think that the characters can move so far beyond what the creator expects. i have been watching seasons 1 and 2 of Buffy and i keep seeing little hints of Willow being a lesbian, even before she came out at the end of season 4. my roommate pointed out that i was probably reading too much into little gestutres and her rainbow suspenders and such, but it did give me pause to wonder if Joss knew Willow was gay, even before she did.

when you look at it from that angle, i guess the whole Kaylee/Jayne thing isn't so far fetched, but i still think that in the current stage of the story that people would feel... icky isn't the right word but it's the first one that comes to mind.

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:11 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by GraceOM:
He never whines about what he's lost, so why beat him up so for occasionally wishing he could be living the life he had planned?

Perhaps you could consider it a reaction from those who dislike Simon's sexual orientation, but can't admit that on the board?

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:13 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

He does have a good heart. I also think he is more sensitive than he appears. I think Kaylee's tantrums have hurt him more than he lets on.

Simon has done more adapting than we give him credit. He dresses in more casual manners. He socializes with the crew. He could just ignore them and stay in his infirmary, but he is trying to get to know them and rely on them. He is comfortable enough to allow River out of his sight every now and then. He even tried to participate in story time. The crew, especially Kaylee, and the viewers need to remember how hard it is to change after 20 years of conditioning. It'll take more than six months.

www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:19 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I am not so sure that Simon is due a great deal of pity. Don't get me wrong, his rescuing his sister and giving up his life as a rich doctor in the Core to care for her is admirable. Then again, he and River were extremely close as children so it seems only natural that he would come to her rescue, especially since his parents seemed content to keep their heads buried in the sand.

From the first episode, Simon lies to the crew and comes across as arrogant and self important. He puts the crew in danger (a big no-no w/ Mal as we all know how he feels about his crew & ship) w/ the Alliance and Dobson. It is not until he is discovered that he comes clean.

Later, as Simon becomes part of the crew (in Safe) Mal and the others treat him like one of their own. This of course is w/ the exception of Jayne who can be boorish and paranoid. River's actions in Ariel (slicing him up) did not make matters any better. There is the whole Jayne betrayal thing, which we see playing out in the episodes following Ariel.

As for Kaylee, she doesn't have an unkind bone in her anywhere. If she becomes cross w/ Simon it is because of his own verbal bumbling (Jaynestown & The Message are perfect examples) and the budding relationship they are both dancing around. She always seems more hurt by the things that Simon (and sometimes Mal & Jayne) says than actually angry.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:41 AM

GRACEOM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoagie:
that's really interesting to think that the characters can move so far beyond what the creator expects. i have been watching seasons 1 and 2 of Buffy and i keep seeing little hints of Willow being a lesbian, even before she came out at the end of season 4. my roommate pointed out that i was probably reading too much into little gestutres and her rainbow suspenders and such, but it did give me pause to wonder if Joss knew Willow was gay, even before she did.

I seem to recall reading in an interview somewhere that Joss's intent for Willow's arc was that she would do some "experimenting" with Tara, but that Oz would return and they'd get back together. But Seth Green's career took off and he wasn't available to return as a regular. So, Joss went with the chemistry and positive reactions ME was getting to Willow/Tara. It was also the plan all along that Willow's SO would be killed and Willow would go off the rails with the magic. It just ended up being Tara rather than than Oz.

Or all that could be wrong; I can't cite any references to specific articles or interviews.

Grace

edited to add: IOW Joss had planned from early on for Willow to have some f/f experience as a college student, hence your sense this is hinted at in early seasons may well be correct.

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:46 AM

GRACEOM

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:
Originally posted by GraceOM:
He never whines about what he's lost, so why beat him up so for occasionally wishing he could be living the life he had planned?

Perhaps you could consider it a reaction from those who dislike Simon's sexual orientation, but can't admit that on the board?

LOL! Not quite sure what you mean. Some folks are dissapointed that Simon doesn't seem to be gay? While it's pretty clear he's attracted to Kaylee, there's nothing to prove he couldn't be bi. So everyone can have hope

Grace

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:58 AM

GRACEOM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:

From the first episode, Simon lies to the crew and comes across as arrogant and self important. He puts the crew in danger (a big no-no w/ Mal as we all know how he feels about his crew & ship) w/ the Alliance and Dobson. It is not until he is discovered that he comes clean.

Yes he is arrogant and self-important at first; he believes he's better than the "rif-raf" he's foced to associate with. But he starts learning pretty quickly that his assumptions don't all hold up. My favorite is his speech to Jayne in Trash, where he points out that Jayne's at his mercy, but he will never harm him, because they all need each other more than they need to satisfy their own personal feelings--he learned that from Mal! And he learned it not by being told, or by having been beaten over the head with a pipe (the way Jayne learned), but because he was paying attention to how Mal does things and why they work.

And yes, he lied to Mal when he came on board--but why should he have trusted these total strangers, these rather shady strangers, who could easily have turned him and River in for the reward money? Indeed, they probably *would* have sold out Simon and River before fully understanding the situation.

Quote:
As for Kaylee, she doesn't have an unkind bone in her anywhere. If she becomes cross w/ Simon it is because of his own verbal bumbling (Jaynestown & The Message are perfect examples) and the budding relationship they are both dancing around. She always seems more hurt by the things that Simon (and sometimes Mal & Jayne) says than actually angry.

That's true. Not dissing her, just observing that if she were more self-confident she wouldn't be so hurt. She would laugh them off or else tell whoever slipped up to put a sock in it and come up with her own zinger (like Zoe or Inara would do). It's because Kaylee's insecure that the slip ups get to her.

Grace

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 9:58 AM

CARDIE

Am I the only person who thinks Simon's love for his sister is just a tad too intense? Joss and Tim comment on "noticing" how it plays on the DVD.

Cardie

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 10:35 AM

SHINYSEVEN

GraceOm said that Simon "learned it from Mal" (i.e., that crew members have to work together and forgive each others' screw-ups). I have to differ--if Mal ever had somebody he was angry at completely helpless, he wouldn't *harm* that person but he'd sure leave him twisting in the wind for a lot longer than 3.5 seconds.

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 10:46 AM

LIZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Cardie:
Am I the only person who thinks Simon's love for his sister is just a tad too intense? Joss and Tim comment on "noticing" how it plays on the DVD.

Cardie

I disagree (though i don't recall the commentary you are referring to) i could see my brother protecting me the way that Simon protects River. I love their relationship. The only scene that is off for me is the deleted scene from OMR... maybe i just don't get it, but that one disturbs me.
If she were more stable i think they would tease each other more, but she's not really at the point that he could do that.
(except really mildly: (paraphrase)
River:
I didn't think you would come for me
Simon:
Well you're a dummy.)
Just my thoughts.

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:23 AM

KARENKAY99

i don't think simon is crapped on all that much. i think he knows how lucky he is to have found serenity. if he and river had got on a different ship, well, it would have been a different show.
i think he's teased a lot coz as kaylle said he's such an easy mark. and it's funny.
and he does seem to get it wrong pretty often, he's smart (top 3% and all) so i have no doubt that he'll get it right eventually.

and kaylee does get her feelings hurt pretty often but that's coz she wears her heart on her sleeve. but her heart is big enough to forgive and she always does.

kaylee & jayne, no, yuck. jayne is like her big brother. she wouldn't let this happen. course i would in a heartbeat so ...
they would have to give me some time to get used to this. many clues first. might give me a heart attack. you'd have to use the pulmonary stimulators and cardiac infusers. what about cortical electrodes?

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 12:04 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

I'm not sure that deep down, Simon is a good person. I think he's a good person through and through. But, watch the whole show, and man, does he get crapped on. River isn't very "forgiving" I guess the is the word I'm looking for, but she doesn't has to be. She can't help it. Mal is hard on him, but after I watched Serenity again, he did say that the deal was you keep your sister in check.

Something strange I saw was how unattached Zoe seems to be from the rest of the crew, excepting Wash, and then only occasionally. I think if the show played out, their marriage wouldn't have lasted. Which would have sucked, but what are you going to do. I only said Jayne in the first post because I was thinking of who it would be that wuold cut Simon to the core coming out of Kaylee's room. It could be anyone (Can you say new cast member) Hell, it could have been Inara for all I know. I was just sayin' is all.

As far as Zoe, Book has less interaction with the crew, and he seems to be more connected with them than Zoe is. Maybe I'm reading it all wrong. I guess I just kinda wished we could have seen a Zoe centric episode, as she is one of the most interesting characters in the show, to my way of thinking. We pretty much know less abuot her than anyone.

Bye bye.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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