Reynolds and the Tams by manwithpez

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Reynolds and the Tams

POSTED BY: MANWITHPEZ
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 9, 2004 00:40
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VIEWED: 5443
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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 3:10 PM

Important people don't do field work.

As I was watching Firefly yet again last night, noticed something about Mal and Simon and River. Mal almost never addresses River directly. Even in Safe, when she's standing right there, he talks around her, but never to her. I don't know if that's because he think's she couldn't understand him or if its something that was meant to be more insidious. But, beyond their few exchanges in "Objects in Space" (And those are few and far between) I don't think he addresses her very directly in any other episode.

About "Objects in Space": I loved the fact that Mal was all too ready to take orders from River without having nearly all the information. That was just freaking cool. In fact, everyone in the crew took orders from her without even knowing where she was and what she was doing. SWEET!

But, I wonder if there was something to that. That Mal never really quite connected with River. Who knows?

"You would've lied anyway..."
Mal

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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 3:50 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
About "Objects in Space": I loved the fact that Mal was all too ready to take orders from River without having nearly all the information. That was just freaking cool.

If you notice from the other episodes, giving orders to others w/ out taking the time to fill in the blanks is a Capt. Tightpants trade mark. He does this in Bushwacked, The Message,etc... I think to Mal there's some recognition that River is coherent and in control of the situation, odd as that may seem. River's " don't make faces" to Mal was, while more than a little unsettling, also served as a kindly reminder that, no matter how odd all this sounds, she needs him to trust her. From Mals experince as a leader, I think he sees from where River is coming.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 4:26 PM

ANNIK

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
As I was watching Firefly yet again last night, noticed something about Mal and Simon and River. Mal almost never addresses River directly. Even in Safe, when she's standing right there, he talks around her, but never to her. I don't know if that's because he think's she couldn't understand him or if its something that was meant to be more insidious. But, beyond their few exchanges in "Objects in Space" (And those are few and far between) I don't think he addresses her very directly in any other episode.

I also loved OiS and the sudden willingness to follow her lead.

Here's another angle on the not-talking-directly-to-River thing: she's sick. Humans have an incredibly annoying habit of asking about sick people ... asking everyone *except* the sick person.

On a related note, that kind of thing makes sick people crazy. River is crazy ... coincidence?

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 5:54 PM

FFYING2

Quote:
Originally posted by annik:
I also loved OiS and the sudden willingness to follow her lead.

Me too.

In general, Mal amazes me how, as a great leader, he knows when to follow. He let Inara push him around in The Train Job to rescue him, he quickly saw a benefit to Book's funeral idea in Bushwhacked, he played cool to Simon's "boss" in Jaynestown, he followed Simon's plan in Ariel, he worked with Yo-Saf-Bridge in Trash, and he followed River's plan in Objects in Space. Plus, he went against his dislike for the Alliance in Safe to save Book's life.

Quite a man, that Capt. Reynolds.

Ying
Firefly Funsite http://fireflyfunsite.home.att.net
Firefly Chinese Pinyinary http://fireflychinese.home.att.net

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 5:53 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I think Mal's lack of interaction w/ River stems from the fact that he does not understand what was done to her, why it was done, and he is at a loss w/ how to deal w/ her. He deals w/ her the only way he knows how to given the situation; he doesn't deal w/ her. Instead of interacting w/ River directly, he has Simon deal w/ her.

I did like Mal's readiness to follow her lead in OiS, which I think was due to how coherent she seemed over the comm, and her plan was sound.

I really liked the exchange between the two when Mal welcomes her back aboard from Early's ship. It was as if the two had overcome a hurdle in their relationship.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:17 PM

KARENKAY99

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I really liked the exchange between the two when Mal welcomes her back aboard from Early's ship. It was as if the two had overcome a hurdle in their relationship.

yeah, me too. and yes, i also noticed that mal never talked to river, only about her. and i have often wondered if the series had continued, would that exchange in ois changed the relationship between mal and river? would he then be able to look at and talk directly to her?

can't hardly wait for the bdm!!

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 1:03 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Instead of interacting w/ River directly, he has Simon deal w/ her.

One could say that River is the only "civilian" on board as everyone else has a job but her.

So, a captain might deal with this person through some intermediary, as (s)he doesn't actually have any control over that person (ie not under his/her command).

If I were the captain, I would probably do this. Plus, it's just good sense to steer clear of crazy people that display violent tendencies.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 4:43 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Book doesn't necessarily have a job on the ship, as the crew is not one of the most God fearing around, and, Mal would probably have more reason to dislike him more than anyone else, given his loss of faith.

But, Mal has had many more conversations with Book than with River. And, there is probably more mystery surrounding Book than there is River, who is just plain crazy. I think Mal feels for the plight of the doctor and his sister because, even though they did bring the Alliance on his head fairly quickly, they were, in fact, opposing the Alliance, in deed if not in word.

I honestly feel that if the show had continued, their relationship would have grown to mutual respect and trust. That is, if Simon could ever have "fixed" his sister.

And, no matter what Mal's intentions may have been, I think River would have been found to be an invaluable member of the crew in the future.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 5:03 PM

RAISTLYNNE

SIGMANUNKI-I like your thoughts on Mal going through an intermediary when dealing with River. Might add that if River is still a minor, then it may be Mal takes Simon as being her guardian. Maybe Mal doesn't feel it "correct" to boss her around due to that, and too, the fact that she isn't 100% lucid and in her right mind at all times. I personally think Mal has a soft spot when it comes to River that I can't fully explain. (I really expected Mal to flip when River got ahold of the pistol in OIS, but he took it pretty well, all things considered.)

I think River does contribute a great deal, but due to the fact that no one else is on her "wavelength", the value is lost. It's like having a radio tower broadcasting information, but no one's tuned in to the correct frequency.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 5:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

River, who is just plain crazy.

Hey now.... don't be bad mouthin River like that. She's not " plain crazy".....she is, as Simon said...a GIFT...and they cut into her brain for who knows why....

She may be broken, but given time, I bet Simon ( or someone) can find a way to put her back together...at least mostly.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 7:04 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Okay...she ain't plain crazy...she was made that way. I know when my amygdala was stripped, and couldn't not feel everything, I went crazy too.

But Blue Sun Amygdala in a can fixed me right up. Good folks, those...

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Saturday, June 5, 2004 7:01 PM

SHINYSEVEN

I think Mal is much more comfortable with natural than supernatural phenomena, and there's something other than or apart from everyday reality about both Book and River. But Book is in control of his relation to the supernatural, and River is out of control with hers.

Although Mal is in the unusual position of having become an atheist in a foxhole, he can relate to Book on the basis of both of them being men who can hold their own in a fight--and I think that perhaps he hopes someday to find his way back to faith. However, he certainly doesn't want to find his way to whatever mental Black River is out in.

Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose

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Saturday, June 5, 2004 7:15 PM

ALIENZOOKEEPER

I don't think Mal's an Athiest. He's mad at god, for very good reasons. That's a whole different animal.

"You're welcome on my boat, God ain't."

As far as the touching of guns, I think Mal would check her out on them, as soon as possible. Kaylee's testimony aside, it's important to know just what River is capable of, and OiS should have told Mal that river isn't just a liability, simon's crazy and not so useful sister.

vince the alien zookeeper

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 11:44 AM

ANKHAGOGO

Quote:
Originally posted by RAISTLYNNE:
I personally think Mal has a soft spot when it comes to River that I can't fully explain. (I really expected Mal to flip when River got ahold of the pistol in OIS, but he took it pretty well, all things considered.)

I completely agree with this -- Mal does have a soft spot for River, much like Spike's for Dawn. I used to wonder if, as William, Spike had had a little sister and was simply treating Dawn as a surrogate sister. William doesn't appear to have had siblings, but now I'm wondering if Mal did. He's very openly a big brother figure to Kaylee, and, even if he doesn't act the same way toward River, I still think Mal looks on her like a little sis. Mal's a protective guy, and River definitely needs protection. Simon's certainly emotionally protective, and we've seen that he'll try and fight people who threaten River, but physically, he's not very --hmm--effective. I kinda think Mal has taken it upon himself to carry out the physical protection of River, if needs be.
I also suspect that on some level Mal admires River's strength. She's been through some serious trauma, is still going through it, and yet she's still standing and still fighting. She's not about to give in, to her messed up brain or to those trying to catch her -- unless those she loves are in danger & that's the only way to save them. How could Malcolm Reynolds not admire that?

"Well personally, I kinda want to slay the dragon."

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 2:44 PM

PIERSNICA

I also agree that Mal's not an atheist; I am a fairly strong atheist (I make the statement that 'I believe no Gods exist;' there's also weak atheism which is essentially what most people call agnosticism; the sort of default position of no belief, but no strong disbelief). I am part of an atheist club and am active in atheist webboards, and he's not an atheist. He's a believer, but he's been hurt, and is upset with God. He's in rebellion, and won't affirm his faith, but still lives it insofar as he behaves (presumably) according to the code of morality he learned from his religion, or faith, which he lost. This is seen when he takes on the Tams, returns the immunizations (especially since he didn't feel he had a choice about returning them), defending his crew, espcially the Tams, and the way he treats Saffron before he knows who she is.

Uh, sorry for hijacking the thread.

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 3:07 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

There was no hijacking that I saw. I don't think Mal's an atheist. Nor, however, do I believe that he is trying to reaffirm his faith. I think he now believes in God so he can hate him. I know that's terrible, but look at it like Mal did. In Serenity, he put total faith in God, and what happened. I mean, the defeat at Serenity Valley was so total and complete that it was the end of the war, more as not, and that last shot of the Alliance raining ordinance on the Valley. Hell, I almost stopped thinking God was there for me when I saw that.

Then again, what do I know? Do you know?
You know?

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 4:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I find Mal's attitude a bit refershing. I also think he's a tad atheist. To suggest that atheist don't have morals is false though. The 'good deeds' that Mal keeps performing could easily be attributed to his culture, up brining rather than any belief in a all powerful dude in the sky.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, June 7, 2004 6:45 AM

PIERSNICA

Oh, i agree that claiming atheists lack morals is erroneous. It seems to me, though, that Mal's morals would coincide closely with those of his lost religion/faith (though a very few people argue that faith is best displayed through one's actions, and in that regrad, Mal still has faith, though that's a whole 'nother discussion). Mal and Book seem to have close systems of morality, and I think it's a reasonable assumption to say they are/were part of the same religion. Book and Mal both seem to have some sort of noble sense of duty to the Tams, eventhough it's dangerous and not really their concern (at least initially).

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Monday, June 7, 2004 10:10 AM

QUICKSAND

WOAH hold the phone here... I missed something big.

A TAD Atheist? Um, no. Mal has given up on his belief in his God 100%, which is the entire core of the character. He believed, he put his faith there.... and was abandoned at the Battle of Serenity Valley.

There was a line in another sci-fi movie, called "Pitch Black" (the sequel opens this week) when Riddick says, "No, I absolutely believe in God. And I absolutely hate the ****er."

Which would more likely to bring up another subject line: Mal: Atheist or just Really Pissed Off?

And if there's anyone who thinks that bein' an Atheist makes you a bad person.... well, I'm sorry you have to go through life bein' so confused, but let me attempt to set you right:

Mal does good deeds because he's a good person. Sure, he's a thief and a liar, but his soul is good, no matter who (or if) he worships.

Such is the human spirit, and don't let anyone tell ye different. Silly.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

p.s. Mal doesn't talk to River because it wouldn't do any good. He's a military man, and military men know that you can't get anything done by tryin' to reason with people who rub soup in your hair. ;)

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 10:57 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

While this thread seems to have gone in a question of Mal's faith mode, I was still contemplating the question at hand. The more I watch of the series, them more I think that River was afraid of Mal. From her comments in The Train Job about what Mal's name means, to Safe, when she throws her little fit and Mal chastises the doctor for the noise she's making (Simon couldn't buy a break on that show, apparently.) River seems afraid of MAl until Objects in Space. Why there was a change there all of a sudden, I don't know. But, I'll keep looking. I don't think Mal would ever rat them out, but I wonder what it would take for Mal to turn on them in some fashion. A lot, I think, but now, we'll never know.

Fox is a piece of go se (I love that phrase.)

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 12:04 PM

LIZ

Also in "Safe," River tells Simon not to worry because daddy is coming... then Mal (et al.) appear. So River is, therefore, is associating Mal to her father, but why? Is River afraid of her father too? Is her father the same type of distant (because he doesn't understand her)? just a thought... gotta run now.

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 1:06 PM

QUICKSAND

I think we're reading too much into this-- River's character (and thus her dialogue) was always a little more abstract, more to communciate a mood than be any specific clues.

River is afraid of Mal, sure... dude, JAYNE is afraid of Mal. The only time Jayne ever backs up is for Mal or for the Reavers. Good character stuff.

Mal is a straightforward guy, and when you can't communcate with someone on the battlefield (either cuz they're delerious with pain, shellshock, hunger, etc.) you communciate through an intermediary: a field doctor being the best example I can think of, either in an actual battle or on Serenity.

Metaphorically, though, I like to kick around the idea of River being the Intelligence (you ever meet a genius who WASN'T cryptic?) and Mal being the Wisdom. In those respective categories, they're tops on the ship.

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 1:12 PM

SHINYSEVEN

Quicksand said:

Quote:

Metaphorically, though, I like to kick around the idea of River being the Intelligence (you ever meet a genius who WASN'T cryptic?) and Mal being the Wisdom.

And JW is on record about thinking of Kaylee as the heart of the ship...like the Uberbuffy (or, in Blakes7 canon, the Gestalt of the Scorpio crew).

"Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose"

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 5:23 PM

ANKHAGOGO

Quote:
Originally posted by Piersnica:
I also agree that Mal's not an atheist; I am a fairly strong atheist (I make the statement that 'I believe no Gods exist;' there's also weak atheism which is essentially what most people call agnosticism; the sort of default position of no belief, but no strong disbelief)

--edit---
Ok, I had replied to this, but then I realized there was a whole thread in this vein that had split off onto another board, so I'm gonna hie myself hence over there and stop arguin' the religion angle here.

"Well personally, I kinda want to slay the dragon."

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 5:29 PM

ANKHAGOGO

---edit---

Ditto.

"Well personally, I kinda want to slay the dragon."

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 12:25 AM

MANTICHORUS

Looking at when River returns at the end of OiS, Mal does seem to have a big bro/fatherly look on his face, don't he?

"Damn it, Mal... You're affecting my grammar." -Me.

-------------------------------------------
"BADGER: You think you're better than other people.
MAL: Just the ones I'm better than."
-------------------------------------
"MAL: Gotta say, doctor, your talent for alienatin' folk is near miraculous.
SIMON: Yes, I'm very proud."

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 12:40 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:
The only time Jayne ever backs up is for Mal or for the Reavers.

Consider Jayne's response to Zoe:
You'll scare the women Bushwacked
I can hurt youShindig
Jayne!War Stories
Anyone we can afford to looseObjects in Space

I'm excepting those occasions when she has a gun trained on him

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