Mal's Religiosity (Or lack thereof) by Piersnica

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Mal's Religiosity (Or lack thereof)

POSTED BY: PIERSNICA
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 9, 2004 13:23
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Monday, June 7, 2004 6:27 PM

Hey, this is a self-made split from another thread where a few of us were discussing Mal's religiosity. Some feel he's an atheist, some feel he's just angry with God. Rather than continue hijacking the thread, and for the convenience of having a nicely labeled thread about it, I figured I'd make a new thread.

I personally think that Mal is someone who has been wounded emotionally and spiritually, but I don't think that he's an atheist.

I am an atheist, and a strong one at that. I say "I believe there exist no Gods (though I could be wrong, I believe the possibility that God(s) exist(s) is very small)." Weak atheists will claim that they do not know whether god(s) exist(s), or make a similar assertion, but are less emphatic than strong atheists. Weak atheists are also often considered agnostics, though some purists in the atheist community will assert that agnostics are those who do not believe God is knowable if it exists. It's all essentially semantics to those outside of atheism, and for the purposes of discussing Mal's religiosity, pretty much any definition of atheist, or even agnostic, will suffice.

May clearly had faith prior to the defeat of the Independents at the Battle of Serenity. I don't know if there's any known history behind the religions seen on the show, but we see him pause to swear off a quick prayer, then kiss the cross hanging from his neck. In a deleted scene, he says "God? Whose colors is he flying?" and from that one sees the beginning of his estrangement from his religion, faith, and God. I also feel that when he asks whose colors god was flying, he felt that he was betrayed by God, not that God didn't exist. He felt his cause was right and just, but it now appears that God is against him.

I am inclined to believe that Mal and Book are of the same religion, because of Mal's Cross and Preacher's Bible, though it could be argued that Mal didn't know he was a shepherd and therefore they aren't of the same religion, assuming an adherent would know the garb of a cleric of that person's religion.

Their codes of ethics seem to be approximately the same, and whether this is coincidence or from their religious schooling is unknown. I assume Book's ethics come from his religion, as somoene immersed in a religion should be consciously living out its tenets as best as possible. Mal's I attribute to culture, upbringing, and his old religion.

While Mal may not be practicing anymore, he retains his morals and sense of duty to those he can help; he returns the medicine to the miners, he takes in the Tams and protects them, doesn't take sexual advantage of Saffron until she seduces him. He also has strong reactions to Inara's profession from the very beginning, when he first calls her a whore. Most atheists I know ( www.iidb.org, and in real life) would say they are okay with prostitution as long as it is regulated and consensual, and that's in a society where it is still taboo. These people include people who were once devout X (mostly christians, but some of other religions, also). I think he's still adhering to the morals of his old religion. It's possible he even acts in accordance to how he believes his religion dictates he should act, but has lost any trust in God and any belief that his God is a benevolent God that he once had.

In an interview, Nathan said that Mal still believes in god, but he and god are not on speaking terms. I'll just throw that out there to stand on its own. http://www.sphosting.com/browncoats/nfspeaks.html

I can't verify it one way or another, but I feel that when he said "You're welcome on my ship, God's not," he was speaking as though he still acknowledged the existence of God.

That was verbose, rambling, and I didn't even prove my point well. I'll go and watch the series a few more times as research (and for my amusement :)

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Monday, June 7, 2004 7:14 PM

GRACEOM

I'd agree with everything except the idea that he has a religious/moral objection to prostitution. He had no problem with the ladies of Heart of Gold, nor did Nandi have to try too hard to seduce him. He has a problem with Inara working as a prostitute for two reason, imho: 1) He's in love with her and doesn't like the thought of her having sex for money--especially since she uses that money to pay her rent, which in turn benefits him, and 2) He believes it's wrong for *her* because it's fairly evident that beneath the superficial, she's not that happy with "the life."

Grace

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 4:06 AM

STILLSHINY

As much as I loathe Heart of Gold I have to say that what takes place between Nandi & Mal is not the same as Inara's work. Inara's customers are purchasing a service and using her, pretending to care about her or even not at all. Nandi was giving herself to Mal. Her payment to him was the pistols.

That said, I have to agree with the idea that Mal believes in God & particulalry the God of the Bible. You will note slight Bible references that are made in the course of the show between Mal & Book point toward that thought.

Mal has been let down by God. He's angry at God. He's hurt. You cannot be hurt by someone you don't believe in or have a relationship with. You cannot lose your faith if you never had it.

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 4:08 AM

HOAGIE

Hm, well that is something to ponder.

methinks Mal had religion, not hard-line, by the book, everything must be ceremony and piety, but one that was strong enough to keep him strong, since someone was on his side all the time. he also believed in saying thank you (evidenced by the kissing of the cross for getting him that far in the battle). When command pulled out of Serenity Valley, leaving the Browncoats to twist in the wind, Mal watched his "angels" fly away, in a sense telling him that all that he had worked for wasn't enough and that he and his didn't matter.

Flash forward six years. god had forsaken him, so Mal now believes in his crew and Serenity. they are there, real, tangible and he gets results NOW. if they betray him, he can deal with it THEN. if they do the job, they get paid and he can reward and thank them THEN. who was he going to yell at when god abandoned him on the field?

When Book asks if he can say grace at dinner (Serenity), Mal says "as long as it's not out loud." I think he realizes that some people feel the need for god in their lives, but that doesn't mean they have to impose it on others who might not share the need or belief. since he does not feel the need for god, and it's his ship gorram it, he cuts the shepherd off from prayer at supper.

As far as the whore thing goes, i think he's just trying to get under Inara's skin and make Book uncomfortable. Inara because he knows her and knows it bugs her, but not to the point it would make her go nuts and scream, just a quasi-friendly jab. Book was just a new face that Mal didn't expect to see very much longer so he got his fun in while he could. he treated Simon and Dobson pretty much the same way.

i don't think that he singled out Book because he was a preacher, i think that he knew that, being a preacher, Book would be squeamish around that word/concept. it was a flaw in the armor that Mal exploited for a quick laugh.

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 4:51 AM

MANTICHORUS

There's no such thing as an atheist. A 'god' is just something you put the utmost importance on.
While some scientists don't believe in God, Buddha, Allah etc, they'll defend what they do believe in (e.g. Darwin, Complexity/Chaos Theory) just as dogmatically as a bonafide believer.
(For some, THEY are their own god.)

NB- I use the lower case 'god' here, because it doesn't refer to the Jewish/Christian God, it refers to a revered entity.

-------------------------------------------
"BADGER: You think you're better than other people.
MAL: Just the ones I'm better than."
-------------------------------------
"MAL: Gotta say, doctor, your talent for alienatin' folk is near miraculous.
SIMON: Yes, I'm very proud."

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 6:21 AM

GRACEOM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stillshiny:
As much as I loathe Heart of Gold I have to say that what takes place between Nandi & Mal is not the same as Inara's work. Inara's customers are purchasing a service and using her, pretending to care about her or even not at all. Nandi was giving herself to Mal. Her payment to him was the pistols.

And anything that might hypothetically take place between Mal and Inara would equally not be a business transaction. But both Inara and Nandi work as prostitutes; in Inara's case this puts him off, in Nandi's case it didn't. I don't think the distinction is down to his religious beliefs, or his state of rebellion against those religious beliefs. Ergo, I don't think that his aversion to Inara's profession has anything to do with religious objections to prostitution (though I agree with the premise that he's a believer who's angry with God).

Grace

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 6:39 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Mal is definitely not an atheist; he is merely a man that has seen firsthand the horrors of war. Not only was Mal's cause lost on the battlefield, but so was his faith, not only in himself, but in God who he feels forsaked them on the field. Mal had to watch thousands die on the field, forgotten by both sides while peace was negotiated. He watched wounded soldiers die without medical treatment, he watched them die from exposure, and who knows what else. Somewhere in that time he also lost his belief in God and religion. He forsook God because he felt he himself had been forsaken.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 3:37 PM

PIERSNICA

I don't think that what transpired between Mal and Nandi is equivalent to Inara, for more reasons than just social class. Mal and Nandi seemed to be more of a "We're both drunk and in a bad way, wanna have some fun?" Mal seems to genuinely care about her, especially when she dies; he feels that he's let her down.

Redefining god is a completely different topic; god has the connotation of some supreme being, and that's what atheism is a reaction against.

Anyone care to list some of the religious influence Mal exhibits in the episodes? My brain's fried from Genetics, Potassium channels and rerarranging my living room and I can't really think of anything right now.

What breaks my heart about Mal is that he's had worldviews which he's not prepared to deal with forced upon him. Watching people lose faith and meaning is heartbreaking to me (eventhough I'm an atheist, I don't recommend it for most people; most people are happier and more functional without atheism. I'm here by default).

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 4:41 PM

QUICKSAND

Mmph.

When you say you believe there's a tiny, tiny chance that God exists, you're not an Atheist. An Atheist beleives there is no God. There is no supreme being. When we die, we are dead, and we rot, the end. This sounds more like Mal to me, but I'm open to a good argument.

An Agnostic, which is probably the word some of you are reaching for, believes there is SOME Supreme Being, but just isn't sure as to the nature of It.

Someone mentioned that Scientists just worship their own god, but that's just silly. Most religious people, and let me know if I'm wrong here, have their religion and that's the way it is. They're not going to be swayed, they're not going to listen to arguments, and they're going to get pissed off if you try and poke holes in their belief system. It's called Dogma. That whole after-death thing is taken care of, glad I don't have to worry about it anymore, what's for dinner?

Scientists, by and large, depend on reason. They'll accept a good argument; they will be won over by proof. Evolution. Earth as Satellite. The Sound Barrier. Long-held beliefs were shot down by experimentation and reason.

Now, I know Atheists who are just as blindly devoted to their belief system as some Christians I know. To each their own.

Me, I just wanna keep asking questions. Cuz I love a good argument.

Mal, on the other hand, decided there was no God after bein' abandoned in Serenity Valley.

"None of it means anything," he says in Objects in Space. Atheists have no problem with there bein' no god. Live life while you're alive. However, Mal is an Atheist... and rather depressed about it. In other words... right on, Piersnica. Well said.

Hmm.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 5:52 PM

ANKHAGOGO

Well, I don't believe that Mal is an atheist. I believe he wants to be, because if you don't have faith in someone, that faith can't desert you, and that person can't let you down.

I stole this from the other board:

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:
There was a line in another sci-fi movie, called "Pitch Black" (the sequel opens this week) when Riddick says, "No, I absolutely believe in God. And I absolutely hate the ****er."

I loved this line when I heard in the movie, and I do think it applies to Mal. Over there, Quicksand asked if Mal was an atheist, or just Really Pissed Off.
Honestly, I'd go with Really Pissed Off, and I think Mal has two reasons for that:

1. He's pissed off because he sees himself as abandoned by the God he grew up believing in, the God he was (probably) told would always be there for him. That's the easy one.

2. I also think he's pissed off because he can't quite not believe in God, not 100%. He doesn't want to believe in a God who could let the Alliance win, and he's trying to reject that God utterly. But something inside him won't let him just write God off completely, and that makes him mad.
It's a bit like those breakups we've all had. You want to hate the other person, and you try to hate them with your whole self. But even while you're so desperately hating them, because it's the only way you can deal, something inside of you still cares for them, and that
really pisses you off. You want them out of your life, and yet they're still lurking in the back of your mind. And even if you got back together, you'd never fully trust that person again. That's how I think Mal feels about God at this point: he knows God is there, but he doesn't want God to be there, because he's never going to fully trust God again, short of some miracle. And Malcolm Reynolds doesn't trust anyone half-way; he either trusts you or he doesn't.

Does that make sense?

"Well personally, I kinda want to slay the dragon."

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 6:07 PM

ANKHAGOGO

Quote:
Originally posted by Piersnica:
Weak atheists are also often considered agnostics, though some purists in the atheist community will assert that agnostics are those who do not believe God is knowable if it exists.

Really, I'm not just being bloody-minded --it's simply that I will argue semantics til the cows come home -- then I'll argue with the cows. But as an agnostic, I'll have to agree that your definition quoted is the one I've always undersood as correct & followed, and there's a huge difference between agnostics and atheists.
Although I will agree that a lot of people don't realize there is a diffence at all, I will (and do, on other boards

) take it upon myself to learn 'em the difference.

Quote:
Their codes of ethics seem to be approximately the same, and whether this is coincidence or from their religious schooling is unknown. I assume Book's ethics come from his religion, as somoene immersed in a religion should be consciously living out its tenets as best as possible. Mal's I attribute to culture, upbringing, and his old religion.

I would love to be able to argue with you about Book's ethics vs Mal's, but I don't have enough info on Book to do so. But I will say that I'm not entirely sure we should try to compare the two, simply because Book is too much of a mystery.
Personally, I suspect that Book's religious views are not more than six years old, which would bring up the interesting question of "What were Book's beliefs before he took to Shepherding?" (can I use "shepherding" as a verb?)
I'm not necessarily saying that Book was an un-ethical man before he went into the abbey; no, wait. Yes, I am. Whatever Book's background (and Whedon knows we've all worn that particular discussion to pieces), I think he was involved in something not terribly ethical or moral, and he experienced an epiphany than made him want to change his tune and embrace God. That would be the opposite of Mal, and, if I'm even close to right, I would find it very interesting to figure out why, exactly, those two seem to think alike in many ways.

"Well personally, I kinda want to slay the dragon."

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 7:08 PM

ROCKETJOCK

I think Mal still believes in God. As someone on this thread has pointed out, he's constantly angry at God, and you can't be angry at someone you don't believe in.

What Mal has lost is his faith that God is good, or caring, or worthy of worship. Not so much athiestic as antitheistic. One reason he remains a good and moral man is that is that he believes that being so in spite of his lack of faith is one way of sticking a finger in God's eye. "See, we don't need you to live right."

In their novel "Inferno", (a modern dress updating of Dante's "Divine Comedy") Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle pointed out that the one weapon we mortals have against God is the witholding of our worship. Drives him crazy.

I think Mal subscribes to this theory.

Oh, and the difference between Athiests and Agnostics is that Athiests have faith in God's non-existence, whereas Agnostics admit doubt in either direction. Therefore, by my definition, Athiesm is a religion, whereas Agnosticism is a philosophy.

(Geez, sometimes I think I just like pissing in the soup...)

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 7:38 AM

PIERSNICA

Atheism is not "I know for for sure God doesn't exist." But as I've said before, that's another discussion, and if you want intelligent debate on that and other subjects, www.iidb.org is a good place to start.

I agree we don't know much about Book; I guess what I meant to say is that the morals of his religion are evident through his actions. Assuming that he's either a shepherd or trying to pretend to be a shepherd, he'd have to consciously try to follow the dogma of the religion. It's these values that Mal's values closely match. Book's probably done naughty things in his past, though. Someone pointed out that this is a lot like Angel from the Buffyworld; haven't seen enough of that to say myself whether I agree or disagree.

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 7:56 AM

SHINYSEVEN

About Book and Angel: hmm, the way I read it, Book was at least an OK moral specimen of military man, CIA man, or whatever he did before he was Shepherdized (little law joke there), but Angelus was an outstandingly poor moral specimen even *for a vampire.*

BTW, "religiousity" is a put-down term: it means, according to my dictionary, "excessive, obtrusive, or sentimental" religion. Sort of like the difference between "slut" and "outgoing personality." So I think this thread is really about Mal's Religion, or Beliefs, or Faith, or lack thereof.

Also, FWIW, "simony" is the sin of selling the sacraments.

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 8:55 AM

PIERSNICA

Religiosity also indicates just the state of being religious. But yes, it can have a negative connotation.

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 9:46 AM

TOMTBA2004

well, obvioulsy he had great faith. he kissed his necklace (cross) before he went to bring down the ship(using the big ass gun). HE is just angry with god. after the battle was lost. he lost his faith.

"lets go to work"

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 1:10 PM

ANKHAGOGO

Quote:
Originally posted by shinyseven:
About Book and Angel: hmm, the way I read it,
Quote:
Book was at least an OK moral specimen of military man, CIA man, or whatever he did before he was Shepherdized (little law joke there), but Angelus was an outstandingly poor moral specimen even *for a vampire.*

To be screamingly anal about it, Angelus was an outstandingly poor specimen of -- well, anything.Angel, on the other hand, had morals, but had his moments where he just didn't care, because he didn't see the point. And frankly, I usually understood his "this is all crap, none of it matters,I'm never going to be redeemed anyway,eat the lawyers and see if I care, you omnipotent bastards" moments. Just like I usually understand Mal's extremely bitter attitude toward God.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I think Book is a Shane character, i.e., whatever he used to do, it wasn't nice, and he didn't have a problem with it. Then one day he had a change of heart or whatever -- during the war, most like -- and is now trying to put that not nice past behind him. I very much think at some point we're going to see a moment where Book has to relaspe into his old life or let the rest of the crew die, and it's going to tear him up.

Quote:
Also, FWIW, "simony" is the sin of selling the sacraments.

Ok, I had a really crappy day, and that made me laugh my head off. Thanks!

"Well personally, I kinda want to slay the dragon."

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 1:23 PM

SHINYSEVEN

I'm new here, so I'm sure this is old stuff, but I think of River's line about the cows forgetting to be cows and remembering in the open air is really about Book having Shepherd as a cover story when he got onboard as Dobson's ("the man I was sworn to protect") backup, and then actually *becoming* a Shepherd in the moment that he chose to knock out Dobson to protect the crew.

But then there was the thread yesterday about movie!Book being a pure-D Shepherd all along. Blast, jossed again.

"Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose"

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