Who would win in a war? by bigwolf18

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Who would win in a war?

POSTED BY: BIGWOLF18
UPDATED: Thursday, August 6, 2009 16:37
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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 1:07 AM

The Alliance? or Halo universe's UNSC?

they occur around the same tim period, within 3 decades of one another, and the technologys are about equal. I think the UNSC would win because of larger shipboard weapons, the ability to use slipspace and the SPARTAN IIs. but what do you think? we haven't seen much of the alliance military, we know they use laser based weapons, and have some kind of advanced technology weapons on their assault ships (opening scene of pilot) be it a rail gun or laser or even plasma, but who could win a war between verses?

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"of course i've gone mad with power, ya ever tried going mad without power? its no fun, nobody listens to you!" The Simpsons Movie

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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 4:31 AM

BYTEMITE

The Alliance apparently has some kind of superweapon capable of turning an entire world, no matter how big or fertile into blackrock, and also appear to feel justified doing so in the event of conflict.

They also have psychics, which are a big tactical advantage, and might use some kind of chemical warfare.

I think because of sheer numbers, however, even though psychics might be able to turn the tide of one or two major seemingly hopeless battles, I picture the Alliance working more insidiously to win worlds.

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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 7:05 AM

FLATTOP

Mal & Zoe are fine folk, definitely above average in the war-waging arena, did better than hold their own against the best the Alliance had to throw at 'em. That said, neither strikes me as being much beyond 'standard' human. Add in a few elite units and a few dozen Operatives, and a handful of telepaths. No interstellar travel. Kudos for the planet killing weapons & the willingness to use 'em, but the only places the Alliance can deliver the weapons to are their own worlds. Lasers exist, but most of the space based anti-ship weapons appear to be missile based. Population of 50ish habitable rocks, many sparsely populated on the rim by folks that don't much care for the Alliance anyway.

The UNSC on the other hand makes use of Marines (I figure dead even match for Alliance troops), and ODSTs (Finest warriors to be found in UNSC space, each a match for an Operative at least), Spartan II's (genetically enhanced to well beyond human, and encased in shielded power armor (Mjolnir)), and Spartan III's (genetically enhanced beyond Spartan II levels, but with Semi-Powered Infiltration armor (think Predator from the movies) vs. Mjolnir armor. The UNSC also has a much larger population to draw from. UNSC space includes Earth-that-was, and hundreds of solar systems, many with multiple habitable rocks (and several that don't much care for the UNSC).

Home field advantage goes to the Alliance. Everything the UNSC uses will have to be shipped in. It's possible that at sublight (non-slip), the Alliance will have the advantage. They have to have fast ships for interplanetary shipping. The UNSC does not, they jump. Down side, the UNSC gets to set the tempo with it's jump capable ships. Drop a few nukes while still in slip-space & watch the show. The Alliance will never be able to engage until the UNSC wishes to. The UNSC can bring all of their forces to bear on a single target at once, and the Alliance cannot detect them coming. The Alliance will have to try to protect multiple targets simultaneously. They will fight bravely, but the the Alliance will be overwhelmed by sheer firepower. Imagine the scene at Mr. Universe's, except all of the incoming ships are dedicated warships, using coordinated MAC firing sequences (similar to current US AEGIS fleet anti-air coordination), and missile batteries.
Space Battle: UNSC

Once the orbital defenses have been destroyed and the fight goes to the ground, things get really grim for the Alliance.
The Alliance won the Unification War because they could out-produce the Independents, and had better technology, not because they were better fighters. The technology advantage is pretty much neutralized in this case, and the productivity advantage is in favor of the UNSC. Let's say 1 person in 1,000 is capable of being either an Operative (Alliance) or an ODST (UNSC), and the rest are Alliance Troopers or UNSC Marines. I'm guessing that the UNSC has more ODSTs than the Alliance has Troops.
Ground Battle: UNSC.

Wildcard:
If the Alliance telepaths can predict where the UNSC will jump to (or perhaps even influence the decision) so that the UNSC jumps into a trap (every Alliance cruiser & fighter, using unarmed ships as cannon fodder to allow them to close to optimal fighting distance), and the Alliance capitalizes on it's superior sublight maneuvering and speed...
Well, that might work once. Then the UNSC would slip in nukes first, and let their capital ships mop up the survivors after the primary shock waves had passed.

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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 8:06 AM

BYTEMITE

Good assessment. Which, like I said, is why I doubt the Alliance would engage the UNSC head on, but instead infiltrate. Even though Operatives of Parliament are highly trained in the martial arts, I suspect their greater skills lie in more clandestine areas.

As I think about it, how is it even possible the UNSC can have 800 inhabitable/terraformed colony worlds and such a high population number only five centuries in the future? I know people bring up this same point about Firefly, but in Firefly there's only 70 worlds and somewhere in the tens of billions of people, much less than the UNSC.

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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 8:07 AM

QUANDOM

1. Quantity of telepaths

It's not clear how many Alliance has, but River was clearly their best, and it is also not clear a telepath works over electronic media or at long distance. I can understand these assets effective in small actions - to what extent strategic?

2. Alliance infantry quality

Not familiar with HALO, but I infer the Marines are volunteers, picked men, training and equipment above the average. If Alliance is a meld of Anglo and Sino, most likely alot of it is draftees, like the US during WWII. The US forces back that had about 100 divisions (if you add in all the corps level assets of independent armor and artillery battalions), but only three divisions Marines, and a few regiments of Rangers. How might the Allianc mix compare with that?

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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 8:27 AM

BYTEMITE

You know, I have my suspicions that maybe comparing infantry isn't the best way to go about this. I suspect Alliance tanks and rollers are more matched and comparable to Spartans than Operatives. Both function as anti-infantry, one is just a vehicle, as opposed to a genetically enhanced person in a power suit.

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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 10:00 AM

FLATTOP

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
As I think about it, how is it even possible the UNSC can have 800 inhabitable/terraformed colony worlds and such a high population number only five centuries in the future? I know people bring up this same point about Firefly, but in Firefly there's only 70 worlds and somewhere in the tens of billions of people, much less than the UNSC.

The development of FTL (Faster Than Light) travel. UNSC found it, Alliance didn't. Once the UNSC could travel from star to star at FTL speeds (via slip-space which, apparently bypasses special relativity) setting up colonies on hundreds of planets becomes pretty straight forward. Don't even have to terra-form 'em unless they're really close to spec already. Just keep looking for good ones.

Lots of wide open spaces, fertile ground, plenty of work to do, not much in the way of entertainment, young men, young women... Perhaps even a bit of encouragement from the government to get the ladies interested in child bearing instead of career building, at least during their prime child bearing years (or just make contraception and abortion inaccessible (oops, we didn't get those crates, but look - Double shipment of baby supplies!), or set up a "people factory" (artificial wombs) if the ladies prove reluctant...

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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 10:15 AM

FLATTOP

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Good assessment. Which, like I said, is why I doubt the Alliance would engage the UNSC head on, but instead infiltrate. Even though Operatives of Parliament are highly trained in the martial arts, I suspect their greater skills lie in more clandestine areas.

I have no doubt that if an Alliance Operative could get to a UNSC facility, (s)he could be quite a trouble maker. Hooked up with a Rebel Faction, an Operative could be very problematic for the UNSC. The trouble is, Alliance personnel can only operate in Alliance territory. They have no way to get an Operative behind UNSC lines. All of the fighting will take place in the 'Verse because of this. An Operative may remain behind on a planet taken by the UNSC & try to set up a resistance (oh the irony! Operatives fighting for Independence from a superior force that's come to meddle!), but I still suspect an Operative to be on par with an ODST, and there's gonna be a bunch of them looking for the source of the problems.

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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 10:26 AM

BYTEMITE

Ah, so you believe the natural reproduction rate may have been augmented with technology. That could make some sense. With just the natural reproduction rate, with most people back on more populated worlds, I couldn't imagine how there might be 800 planets populated enough to call them "colonies."

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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 10:31 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
I have no doubt that if an Alliance Operative could get to a UNSC facility, (s)he could be quite a trouble maker. Hooked up with a Rebel Faction, an Operative could be very problematic for the UNSC. The trouble is, Alliance personnel can only operate in Alliance territory. They have no way to get an Operative behind UNSC lines. All of the fighting will take place in the 'Verse because of this. An Operative may remain behind on a planet taken by the UNSC & try to set up a resistance (oh the irony! Operatives fighting for Independence from a superior force that's come to meddle!), but I still suspect an Operative to be on par with an ODST, and there's gonna be a bunch of them looking for the source of the problems.

Except, like I said, I think Operatives have more infiltration skill and subterfuge ability than the military training you may find in higher end soldiers. Which means they could go underground detected, get into unexpected places... And I don't think all of their skills require Alliance clearance, because I'm sure there's been times they've been sent to assassinate rich businessmen who can afford security who've fled to worlds on the Border or Rim.

It's just an interesting possibility to consider. :)

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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 1:45 PM

JAMERON4EVA

I think in the end, the UNSC would win, they have the ships, speed, ODST's, Shipboard AI's, Spartain's, lest we forget, the fraking Covenant, oh and if the need is so great, there may always be one Halo out there, you know, REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But in the end, you can't forget, the forces of Emporer Palpitine, Amdniral Mitth'rawn'urodo, (serious apologies to Timothy Zahn if i messed up the name), A.K.A. Thrawn. Oh, and the Borg, and the Romulins, and the, well the list goes on, and on.

"Father help me PLEASE!!! HELP ME!!!!!!"

Luke Skywalker to Darth Vader

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Wednesday, August 5, 2009 2:48 PM

FLATTOP

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
I have no doubt that if an Alliance Operative could get to a UNSC facility, (s)he could be quite a trouble maker. Hooked up with a Rebel Faction, an Operative could be very problematic for the UNSC. The trouble is, Alliance personnel can only operate in Alliance territory. They have no way to get an Operative behind UNSC lines. All of the fighting will take place in the 'Verse because of this. An Operative may remain behind on a planet taken by the UNSC & try to set up a resistance (oh the irony! Operatives fighting for Independence from a superior force that's come to meddle!), but I still suspect an Operative to be on par with an ODST, and there's gonna be a bunch of them looking for the source of the problems.

Except, like I said, I think Operatives have more infiltration skill and subterfuge ability than the military training you may find in higher end soldiers. Which means they could go underground detected, get into unexpected places... And I don't think all of their skills require Alliance clearance, because I'm sure there's been times they've been sent to assassinate rich businessmen who can afford security who've fled to worlds on the Border or Rim.

It's just an interesting possibility to consider. :)

I agree, the Operatives would be a force to contend with. The point I'm trying to make is this:
There is no way in the 'Verse (Core or Rim, Alliance or Independent) for an Operative to get to any planet that is not within the 50ish rocks that have been terra-formed since leaving Earth-that-was. They simply do not possess FTL capability. The only way for an Operative to get "Behind the lines" is to get to a planet that the UNSC has (or soon will) captured.

All UNSC personnel are required to execute what is referred to as the "Cole Protocol" in the event an FTL capable ship is in danger of capture. In short: Erase all navigation data repeatedly, physically destroy the crystals the data was stored on, and then self destruct. Brutal, requires total commitment of the crew, but damn effective at preventing any "aliens" from finding UNSC planets.

Could an Operative stow away onboard a UNSC ship? Let's say (s)he does. --Sidebar - YoSafBridge as an Operative has potential -- It is unlikely any of the UNSC ships would return to UNSC space until after the fighting was over. Sabotage the ship? OK. Become a big enough problem and still find a way to remain hidden, and there's an increasing probability that the UNSC will transfer it's personnel to another ship & invoke the Cole Protocol.

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Thursday, August 6, 2009 3:48 AM

BYTEMITE

Hmm, yeah, you have a point. Still, maybe the Operative need not capture the ship. They're not an alien, easy enough to grab a uniform and stay out of sight, just be dismissed as human and some unimportant low level rank, maybe pretend to be part of the mechanical crew. This has the added bonus of them being able to spy on the FTL technology.

Then, when they reach a planet, the Operative goes planet side, and there he begins his work.

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Thursday, August 6, 2009 3:09 PM

KINGEICHOLZ

I don't know much about halo but i know star trek Federation cause they would be outnumbered also the alliance used laser and the fed, used phasers now i will tell you the diffirace between the 2 i did a paper on that at NASA lasers use a conintrated light of very hight heat.Phasers on the other hand used partical beam now what happends you say when a lasers hit you it just makes a hole in you now when you get hit with a phaser it's so hot it melts down atoms at photones at the metntley strtrue so as soon as you get hit you melt down to nothing.

REAL MAN

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Thursday, August 6, 2009 4:37 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
...it's so hot it melts down atoms at photones at the metntley strtrue...

Word, yo. Its teh strate-up suxor wen teh metntley strtrues.

So, King... that internet interloper still got ahold of your account and username?

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