Retooling Firefly by Hobbes

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Retooling Firefly

POSTED BY: HOBBES
UPDATED: Sunday, November 17, 2002 23:30
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 8260
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Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:13 PM

From Dark Horizons news for 14 Thursday (today :)

On the one hand, some are saying FOX will announce the Joss Whedon show's cancellation this week - on the other rumours have begun that Fox will keep it running but retool it with a more sci-fi bend and pull back on the 'western' aspects.

For now you can see it at http://www.darkhorizons.com/news-n.htm

It should be archived here:
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/021114.htm
if my stab at their archiving system is correct.

-------------------------------------------------
May the road rise to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May you be in heaven an hour before
The Devil knows you’re dead.

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:07 PM

MALAKILI

Nothing good can come of those FOX pricks retooling anything.

I just had a mental image of a FOX exec clubbing Joss over the head with a big wrench.

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:31 PM

MILLERNATE

Quote:

I just had a mental image of a FOX exec clubbing Joss over the head with a big wrench.

Ah yes, The TNT "Crusade" treatment. I haven't seen it since Tribune screwed over Robert Hewitt Wolfe

.

Seriouly though, this may well be a case of going on that road to heck either way.

Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:53 PM

FRANKIGAL

oh no not retooling,

I hate te idea of them messing with Joss's vision for the show

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 8:14 PM

PERSEPHONE

Can't Joss take the show to another channel? I love the western aspects. Basically, it's saying that Fox will either cancel the show or ruin it.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 7:51 AM

KAYLEE

Don't know how i feel. On the one hand, it's better to go out on a high than have your vision and shows integrity ruined, on the other, I love this show and it's characters, I want it to live, and lets face it, the Western aspect is begining to get annoying.

Plus i don't think there's anything Fox can throw at Joss and he won't be able to turn into a good thing, and would it really be so bad for the show to incorporate more science fiction-esque story's.

My God. Joss and Science Fiction? He'll never pull it off.

P.S. Science Fiction is Ok. Don't make it Star Trek.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 8:10 AM

ALTERNITY

They should either leave it alone or cancel it. They should not "retool" it. Corporate suits should never get involved in the creative process. Corporate execs getting involved in the creative part just makes all TV look the same. If they don't like it just can it and replace it with some more mediocre mindless pap for the masses.

roj

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Friday, November 15, 2002 9:10 AM

HJERMSTED

There's nothing wrong with the western motif. I actually enjoy the way the show can be sci fi one week and western the next. Gien proper time to draw an audience, the sci-fi/western thing would become less relevant as the story arcs and characterizations take over anyway. I mean, does anyone refer to Buffy or Angel as "horror shows" anymore?

Firefly is a Whedon show. Like it or lump it on that level if you gotta.

What the show does need is a new timeslot. I'm hoping this is the extent of Fox's "re-tooling" of the show... it's timeslot, not it's content.

mattro

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Friday, November 15, 2002 9:46 AM

BOBKNAPTOR

I'm with you mattro. I can't imagine that those loser execs would be able to make the show "better" by trying to edit it's content. I know that Whedon has toned things down before to keep the network happy (Willow and Tara were together almost a year before they had their first on-screen kiss, Joss couldn't explore darker storylines until leaving the WB, etc...). And so far, because he's Whedon, he made it work. But saying that they want to tone down the "Western" aspects of Firefly is like saying they'd like to tone down the "magical/witchy" aspects of Buffy. No, it's not a show that completely depends on Willow being a witch and having magical powers, but would it be a very different show if Joss hadn't been allowed to go down that path?

______________
Xander: Well, I've avoided Giles tons of times. Just meant I was lazy, not evil.
Buffy: I hope you're right. Because defeating lazy Willow — probably less hard.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 10:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think the "spirit" of the show is "rawness", a sense of limits/adversity. It doesn't matter WHERE it takes place. It's a brilliant idea (and if you look at our world, a realistic one) to create worlds that can be at the pinnacle or at the bottom. The implied complexity is a terrific place for creativity. And thank goodness there's no uppity holodecks!

But except for three episodes, I really don't think that spirit came through. "Raw" doesn't mean western, and tossing chunks of undigested hillbilly ignorance into a script just doesn't seem to work, at least not for me. My first wish is that the show stay on the air (!!!) but my second wish is for scripts that integrate that sense of limitation w/o resorting to stereotypes.

DUH to me. I just figured out why some shows clicked with me and others didn't. The shows that I liked showed the Serenity crew dealing with THEIR limits. The shows that didn't work so well for me showed the Serentiy crew dealing with the limits of the "ignorant" population.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 11:11 AM

WEBWARRIOR

I don't think fox is going to do anything but take a hurry up and wait attude with firefly!!!

The really good thing about the show is that thier is something's not all together there yet and is building on a foundation a reality that has not come to life yet (the 500 year thing) so its all up to interpitation of the creator (love Joss work) and not up to you ,me or a corprete suite!!!

I love the flavor, I love the look,I love the feel,I love the way its all one story and not a dozen story that you can't get your head around (( the Battle Star Galatica thing)) for missing five minute!!!

I say if they touch the show, we the loyal viewer should find the FOX prick's and slice of there balls ((WHO'S WITH ME) and then send them to there stock holder at fox and tell them is a money thing!!!

It's good however to see the WB network and Joss have made friends again ,who know it may go to them(one can only hope and pray to the SCI-FI GOD'S)because they are always looking for an off the wall show that can make money,.
And Joss knows how to make money from his creatitions

Please note that if Fox dosent change a thing and pick's the show up for this season and next,the sliceing of there nuts thing is out!!!

And one more thing PISS on the SCI-FI GODS they dident answer my prayers with FARSCAPE!!!

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Friday, November 15, 2002 12:05 PM

DELVO

Quote:
P.S. Science Fiction is Ok. Don't make it Star Trek.

Hey, they could always go the Andromeda route and turn it into Mutant X...

I thought Whedon had a contract that didn't allow anyone to meddle with the show, sort of like Straczynsky with Babylon 5. Is this not the case?

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Friday, November 15, 2002 1:37 PM

NOVAGRASS

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:

I thought Whedon had a contract that didn't allow anyone to meddle with the show, sort of like Straczynsky with Babylon 5. Is this not the case?

This may be the case, but perhaps Whedon would prefer to tell stories with these characters before throwing them into the dumpster. He may have a contract that says "no meddling in my story," but that doesn't mean FOX won't threaten cancellation.

On one hand, I utterly dispise the idea of networks touching any creative aspects of any show. On the other hand, if there is an option to keep the characters alive and still tell the stories that Joss would like to tell, but with more subtle western aspects, I'd rather that option than the complete destruction of the world altogether.

It's a touchy situation, but if they tell Joss "Find a way to tone down the western, or you'll get cancled," I have faith that he'll deliver the same amazing material... only with Mal wearing less tight pants and spouting fewer "ain't"s.

I absolutely loathe the thought of creative censorship, though... it tends to ruin a story no matter how minor that censorship is. But, I don't want to give up these characters yet... and I have a feeling Whedon feels the same way. So... it's a sticky situation... I can't decide how I feel.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Friday, November 15, 2002 5:20 PM

WEBWARRIOR

You know people the babylon 5 route is a possibilty, if FOX say's it's DUMPED it could go to syndication!!!

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Friday, November 15, 2002 11:26 PM

BOBKNAPTOR

Was it just me, or did tonight's episode seem much more science-fictiony? I liked the cool toys they had in this one... body bags changing color once they had approval to enter was a very cool, subtle idea.

______________
Sorry sir, didn't mean to enjoy the moment.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:13 AM

WILLIAM

Hopefully thing will turn out fine. But the fact is, if FOX do decide to retool the show, hopefully they ONLY retool the western bits, not the characters. For all we know, FOX will ask for more sex and action. Which means, alot of unneccesary sex scenes and alot of silly whooshing sounds and sparks flying everywhere. Basically a Andromeda type of show. Characters will become stale, and dull, almost 2D-like. Because FOX wants a silly sci-fi show with alot of special-effects- like a mini-starwars-prequels.

Tv execs should never touch the creative-side of any show, look at Roswell, that show that was on The WB, then UPN. If you watch the first like 16 episodes of the first season. They were fun, refreshing and the drama, characterisations were brilliant. Then hit the 17+, it became lame scifi, with silly alien storylines, and alot of stupid dialogue flying about.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:39 AM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Quote:
Originally posted by William:
Tv execs should never touch the creative-side of any show, look at Roswell, that show that was on The WB, then UPN. If you watch the first like 16 episodes of the first season. They were fun, refreshing and the drama, characterisations were brilliant. Then hit the 17+, it became lame scifi, with silly alien storylines, and alot of stupid dialogue flying about.

Hmm. I watched all three seasons of Roswell(maschostic, little ol' me) and while I agree that there was some goodness in the first season it was never, ever brilliant. Nobody had to mess with it to make it bad. Of course I cherish all three season precisely for their utter lack of brilliance, so who am I to judge?

I don't see Joss standing for much retooling of one of his "children". Hopefully, FOX will re-up and then ask Joss for changes, that way Joss can tell them shove it after they've already got that back nine in the can.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:53 AM

SNOWSPINNER

I think Joss is a professional, and wold thus, if asked by the network to make changes, do it. Look at his early screenwriting jobs sometime. Look at how readily he wrote Train Job to replace Serenity as a premiere.

If Fox asks him to retool it, he'll probably do the best he can with what they give him. Because it's his job. And good writers/producers/etc will do their job.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 8:01 AM

TINYTIMM

Quote:
Originally posted by William:
Hopefully thing will turn out fine. But the fact is, if FOX do decide to retool the show, hopefully they ONLY retool the western bits, not the characters.

Explitive DELETED!! Fox already retooled the show and damaged it! During this "hiatis" get the original pilot finished and polished and play the series in the order it was intended.

Jeff
Who once called a local TV station to complain they were playing STARBLAZERS out of order. Response: "It's a cartoon. There's no order!"

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 8:42 AM

REYVNDARKNIGHT

The best retooling Fox could do is move Firefly to another time slot. Personally, I think it could hold its own against Birds of Prey. Or maybe Monday at 8 pm.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:00 AM

HOBBES

I like Monday at 9, in the (canceled) Girls Club slot.

-------------------------------------------------
May the road rise to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May you be in heaven an hour before
The Devil knows you’re dead.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:23 AM

GREASEMONKEY

If something isn't done about the show though It's gonna get the axe! Let's face it, Fox is a buisness and they are in it to make money. If there are not enough people watching, no money.
Since Firefly is a fairly cerebral show, it's viewer base is relatively low.
I think the biggest problem is that there are no "aliens". For a sci-fi program not to have an extra-terrestrial (or in this case non-human) race is, in my opinion, a mistake. I know what Joss was going for when he decided this but it's not going to work.
The problem with Joss telling the execs to "shove it" is that they are the ones paying the bills. Not him.
I love the show just as it is, don't get me wrong but the average TV watcher will just sit there and go "I don't get it, let's watch 'everyone loves raymond' honey..."

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 12:23 PM

RAGNAROKGS

True, it is not a show for the average viewer. But retooling to make it so would ruin it.

Be aware, however, that the rumors of its cancellation originated from its critics, not from anywhere in FOX.

-----
RagNaRoK *gs*
"Ich kodiere, folglich bin ich."

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:45 PM

KEF

I'm not too concerned about any possible retooling. In all the Joss Whedon interviews I've read, what comes across is that Firefly, at it's core, is about the characters. How they deal to the situations they find themselves in, and how they deal with each other. Everything else is, to a certain extent, window dressing (my interpretation.) It's not about flying around in outer space, or reinventing the western, or trying to come up with new gee-wiz sci-fi ideas, or whatever. JW did want to do a sci-fi show, and the western take is what inspired the concept, but characters and storytelling are what he's all about. (It's why I'm watching.) Fox execs know it, and they're not gonna mess with that. That's why they wanted him to make a show for them in the first place.

In the interviews, JW says that basically they only had one problem with the pilot. He wanted to go slow, explore the characters, then build up to an action climax. But they wanted the elements that would grab the viewers (the casual viewers, not hardcores like us) to be brought up front. Make it exciting first, then the audience will follow you wherever you want to go. He says that in retrospect the execs were right. It was just a matter of adjusting the structure a bit.

The point is that any "retooling" will only be window dressing. JW is willing to listen and work with them to make his creation a success. I believe (as an previous post said) that he can take whatever suggestions they have and make it work for him, and it will be just as good a show. Hopefully he'll get the chance.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:59 PM

NOVAGRASS

Quote:
Originally posted by Greasemonkey:
I think the biggest problem is that there are no "aliens". For a sci-fi program not to have an extra-terrestrial (or in this case non-human) race is, in my opinion, a mistake. I know what Joss was going for when he decided this but it's not going to work.

I'm worried at how DISGUSTED that comment made me (worried for my sanity, worried for my sense of reality, worried about my temper). Sorry, GMonkey, but I have to say you are way off base. I don't like to tell people that they're flat out wrong ever, but I'm going to say you're wrong.

The fact that there are no aliens *should* be drawing more of a mainstream audience. Aliens, I think, are what alienate (no pun intended) the mainstream audience from sci-fi. Without aliens, it's more like a normal drama, only set in the future on a space ship. Perhaps if Whedon was trying to appeal to the Sci-fi fanbase, you'd have a point, but sci-fi fandom alone will not provide the ratings necessary for Firefly to survive in any time slot.

Most importantly, the WHOLE CONCEPT of Firefly is designed to examine HUMANITY in the future... not Alien-ism in the future, not android-ism in the future, HUMANITY in the future. It was not a mistake to get rid of the aliens, it was not a bad decision... it SHOULD be appealing to more people... if only FOX knew how to market it correctly, they'd have a HOT property on their hands. I've maintained, since seeing the pilot this summer, that if Fox understood anything about the show, they'd have something big on their hands... Big, NYPD Blue, big... Big, Law and Order, big.

Fox needs to realize that Firefly is not a space-opera. It's a character drama. They need to start advertising it as such. They need to wrap their heads around the fact that not everything set in the future needs to be an action show... that it is possible to have a DRAMA set in the future that doesn't involve lasers and space battles and aliens. THEY NEED TO REALIZE THAT FIREFLY IS MORE HUMANISTIC THAN ANYTHING ELSE ON TV. Then, they'll have the audience they need to carry the show onward... an audience bigger than any re-tooling could provide.

--Dylan Palmer--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 9:04 AM

EVANS

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:
Fox needs to realize that Firefly is not a space-opera. It's a character drama. They need to start advertising it as such. They need to wrap their heads around the fact that not everything set in the future needs to be an action show... that it is possible to have a DRAMA set in the future that doesn't involve lasers and space battles and aliens.

Years ago, on the order of 40, perhaps, what is now PBS showed a play called "The Flight of the Auk." The Auk was a space vessel orbiting the Earth. One of the men on the Auk, in a radio interview with someone on Earth, mentioned that it would be easy to mount nuclear warheads on platforms in space. The crew learned, later, that this casual remark sparked a war on Earth, and that they might have nothing to go home to.

This play, on a plain set, could be called science fiction, but it was really about choices, and about human interaction. I don't know how the local station promoted it, but I'm sure it wasn't as science fiction. And how I'd love to see it again.

m.

"But ... not boring, like she made it sound. " Wash, in ARIEL

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:16 PM

KEF

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:
Quote:
Originally posted by Greasemonkey:
I think the biggest problem is that there are no "aliens". For a sci-fi program not to have an extra-terrestrial (or in this case non-human) race is, in my opinion, a mistake. I know what Joss was going for when he decided this but it's not going to work.

I'm worried at how DISGUSTED that comment made me (worried for my sanity, worried for my sense of reality, worried about my temper). Sorry, GMonkey, but I have to say you are way off base. I don't like to tell people that they're flat out wrong ever, but I'm going to say you're wrong.

The fact that there are no aliens *should* be drawing more of a mainstream audience. Aliens, I think, are what alienate (no pun intended) the mainstream audience from sci-fi. Without aliens, it's more like a normal drama, only set in the future on a space ship. Perhaps if Whedon was trying to appeal to the Sci-fi fanbase, you'd have a point, but sci-fi fandom alone will not provide the ratings necessary for Firefly to survive in any time slot.

Most importantly, the WHOLE CONCEPT of Firefly is designed to examine HUMANITY in the future... not Alien-ism in the future, not android-ism in the future, HUMANITY in the future. It was not a mistake to get rid of the aliens, it was not a bad decision... it SHOULD be appealing to more people... if only FOX knew how to market it correctly, they'd have a HOT property on their hands. I've maintained, since seeing the pilot this summer, that if Fox understood anything about the show, they'd have something big on their hands... Big, NYPD Blue, big... Big, Law and Order, big.

Fox needs to realize that Firefly is not a space-opera. It's a character drama. They need to start advertising it as such. They need to wrap their heads around the fact that not everything set in the future needs to be an action show... that it is possible to have a DRAMA set in the future that doesn't involve lasers and space battles and aliens. THEY NEED TO REALIZE THAT FIREFLY IS MORE HUMANISTIC THAN ANYTHING ELSE ON TV. Then, they'll have the audience they need to carry the show onward... an audience bigger than any re-tooling could provide.

--Dylan Palmer--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:
Quote:
Originally posted by Greasemonkey:
I think the biggest problem is that there are no "aliens". For a sci-fi program not to have an extra-terrestrial (or in this case non-human) race is, in my opinion, a mistake. I know what Joss was going for when he decided this but it's not going to work.

I'm worried at how DISGUSTED that comment made me (worried for my sanity, worried for my sense of reality, worried about my temper). Sorry, GMonkey, but I have to say you are way off base. I don't like to tell people that they're flat out wrong ever, but I'm going to say you're wrong.

The fact that there are no aliens *should* be drawing more of a mainstream audience. Aliens, I think, are what alienate (no pun intended) the mainstream audience from sci-fi. Without aliens, it's more like a normal drama, only set in the future on a space ship. Perhaps if Whedon was trying to appeal to the Sci-fi fanbase, you'd have a point, but sci-fi fandom alone will not provide the ratings necessary for Firefly to survive in any time slot.

Most importantly, the WHOLE CONCEPT of Firefly is designed to examine HUMANITY in the future... not Alien-ism in the future, not android-ism in the future, HUMANITY in the future. It was not a mistake to get rid of the aliens, it was not a bad decision... it SHOULD be appealing to more people... if only FOX knew how to market it correctly, they'd have a HOT property on their hands. I've maintained, since seeing the pilot this summer, that if Fox understood anything about the show, they'd have something big on their hands... Big, NYPD Blue, big... Big, Law and Order, big.

Fox needs to realize that Firefly is not a space-opera. It's a character drama. They need to start advertising it as such. They need to wrap their heads around the fact that not everything set in the future needs to be an action show... that it is possible to have a DRAMA set in the future that doesn't involve lasers and space battles and aliens. THEY NEED TO REALIZE THAT FIREFLY IS MORE HUMANISTIC THAN ANYTHING ELSE ON TV! Then, they'll have the audience they need to carry the show onward... an audience bigger than any re-tooling could provide.

--Dylan Palmer--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

The alien thing is irrelevant. The two most popular sci-fi series with mainstream audiences of the last 15 years (correct me if I'm wrong, I usually am) were Star Trek Next Generation, which was lousy with aliens, and The X Files. But what made those shows so popular was compelling storytelling and characters that people connected with. Other recent sci-fi shows like Farscape had aliens and great storytelling, but didn't click with a mainstream audience. Firefly I think has the same mainstream accessability potential as STNG and X Files. (I don't see NYPD Blue/Law And Order potential, I think that's overstating it. On the other hand, I'd never have guessed CSI would be #1.)
You're ABSOLUTELY right though, that they should be seeing it and promoting it as a character drama!!! With a bit of humor and action. The ads I've seen make it sound like some kind of wacky outer space cult genre thing. People are going to think that if they watch they're not going to understand half of what's going on.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:30 PM

XENOBOB

Well, any 'retooling' will probably screw it all up. I love Firefly's atmosphere, and I hate Fox.
Retooling is bad.
Remember what happened with Alien Ressurection.
I really liked the original script, but then everyone started cutting it up and the movie sucked because of it.
If they cancel or mess with Firefly, I am going to murder them.
Who's with me?
Of course, if you're morally opposed to murdering them, you can at least hold them down for me.

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