GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Betrayal in "Ariel"

POSTED BY: EVANS
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 08:54
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 10070
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Friday, November 15, 2002 1:47 PM

EVANS


Haven't seen the episode yet (time is 3:47pm local). TV Guide, other blurb suppliers say there is a betrayal. Herc speculates there will be only eight regulars after this ep.

My musing: Early Web listinigs for Adam Baldwin said he was penned in only for the first ____ (don't remember) episodes. Can Jayne be the betrayer??? Seemd impossible, huh, unless the Alliance offers drop-dead money.

m.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 2:32 PM

MOUNTAINGAL


I really don't know...I don't think it'll be Jayne. I think it'll be someone nobody expects. Jayne's too easy. Everyone knows that he and Simon have a bit of tension between them (read into that what you will).

My random guess is...


...


...


Ack, i give up. I'll say who it was afterwards (probably in hissy-fit form).

~S.

You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 2:44 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.


I can't remember, but I think Baldwin originally signed up for eight episodes. Interesting thing is, I think Jaynes' popularity with the fans no longer makes him a prime candidate to get killed off.

The other possibility is Book.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 2:51 PM

EVANS


Ok, it's Jayne or Book ... maybe. My thirty cents is on Jayne. If I'm right, you buy me a 30-cent cup of let's-call-it-coffee-product from the vending machine, and drink it. If I'm wrong, I'll buy my own l-c-i-c-p and consume it in your honor.

Meanwhile. Who is the LEAST likely to be the betrayer?

River. Well, she might screw up due to insanity.

Inara. She might be persuaded, if she thought it would save someone's life.

Simon, out of bumblingness or desire to save his sister.

Kaylee, Zoe, Mal. Least likely. Can't even dream up reasons.

m.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 4:05 PM

SERENITYANGEL


SPOILERS FOR ARIAL
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IF YOU DON'T WANNA KNOW TURN BACK
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Well, I just watched the episode and beieve it or not, it was Jayne! I was actually shocked and disappointed that he'd betray the crew like that and almost get them all killed. He called the feds during the heist and nearly got everyone killed and as punishment, Mal locked him in a hanger bay and started slowly opening the door saying that he'd pay for what he'd done. He didn't kill him, never thought Mal would, just not him, but by episode's end, Mal left Jayne in the hanger bay to think about what he'd done. I was so shocked that Jayne would try something this stupid, but he will ultimately pay when he no longer has the trust of the crew.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 4:07 PM

DELVO


So now that it's been shown, the mystery is...

Select to view spoiler:


Why did Jayne UN-betray them? When he saw how responsible the Alliance was for the situation, did we see that there's something he dislikes more than he likes money?

Anyway, I was hoping for a two-parter or more with the siblings left behind at the end of the episode. But at least their escape wasn't made to look too easy.


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Friday, November 15, 2002 4:12 PM

SESHAT


HOLY ___
SWEET MOTHER OF PEARL
THAT FREAKED ME OUT
:biggrin says it all
If you haven't seen ariel yet, sit tight

Select to view spoiler:



I couldn't beleive Jayne actually ratted out Simon and River.
I really thought the FEDs would get Simon and/or River. It was cool though
I also was TOTALLY suprised when Mal locked out Jayne and threatend to kill him. I hasn't sure if Mal would let him back in
mabey now Jayne'll keep his mouth shut



Execllent episode
I was afraid at the start that it wouldn't develop well since it was the second episode in a row that had a large portion devoted to River and Simon. But it went really well.
i liked how Rivers emotions are beoming more normal. Not as old grampaish and more disturbed person

Easily the best episode yet

WELL DONE

Fox exec who cancelled firefly
:stupid

I need a good quote

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Friday, November 15, 2002 4:15 PM

GAHERIS


Well....

Select to view spoiler:


Jayne betrays the Tam's because he is the classic merc and wants money. He "un-betrays" as was so eloquently put for two reasons... A. in my opinion, he realized what REALLY is wrong with River (feels every emotion, and can't block any out) B. The "gorram" feds didn't even pay him but had the brass nerve to arrest him as well for aiding and abetting the fugitives. If I was in Jayne's position I'd be mad too. Just like to say, I like Jayne's scuffle and I'm surprised at Simon's nerve.


That's all! I think Ariel was a great episode

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Friday, November 15, 2002 5:27 PM

DOUG


I don't think the rest of the crew will find out what Jayne did. I don't think Mal will tell them, because he knows Jayne would lose their trust, and that wouldn't be in the best interest of anyone.

I never thought Jayne was above selling anyone out. On most TV shows, it wouldn't be unusual for a character like Jayne to develop a "soft-spot" for someone like River, but Joss Whedon seems to prefer to keep his characters truer to their nature. Over time, perhaps. But Jayne's not going to start going soft in episode eight.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 5:53 PM

GAHERIS


Quote:

Originally posted by Doug:
I don't think the rest of the crew will find out what Jayne did. I don't think Mal will tell them, because he knows Jayne would lose their trust, and that wouldn't be in the best interest of anyone.



Oddly enough, I think River already knows about the betrayl. The way she was glaring at Jayne the entire time and the fact that she's well... psychic make it almost certain that River knows. AND River doesn't seem to like Jayne too much for some reason...

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Friday, November 15, 2002 7:34 PM

PERSEPHONE


I also thought that Jayne was too obvious a choice. I was thinking it would be Book until I saw he was nowhere to be found.

I love that Joss & co. are being really honest about these characters. They haven't tried to sugar coat Jayne's character the way so many other shows would. Jayne is an entirely selfish, mercenary character and that has been consistent so far. That's why I wasn't disappointed about the traitor being Jayne, because it made sense, it was believable. Also, I think this episode might serve as a bit of turning point for Jayne. Hopefully he won't get all watered down or anything, but if he's going to be part of the crew there needs to be a bit of trust and loyalty there. The others all know this, but he doesn't seem to, maybe he's starting to learn.


Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 7:54 PM

TRINITY


Huh. I thought Jayne had to be the one to switch sides, for more money. That's how he came to be on the crew in the first place.


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Friday, November 15, 2002 7:55 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


Was I the only one that found the Blue Hands groups's weapon mega freaky?

Joss obviously foreshadows Jayne as the Judas for this ep. in Serenity:

Select to view spoiler:



The crew takes an Alliance officer prisoner. The prisoner tries to buy Jayne off, Janye thinks it over, and replies: "Let's talk price." In the end, we find out that Jayne didn't sell out, but only because the money wasn't good enough. Mal askes Jayne what will happen the day the money is good enough, and Jayne replies something along the lines of "That'll be an interesting day."



However, I do think there's hope for Jayne yet. He honestly seemed to feel remorse for his actions before he knew he was caught. The scene where Simon is singing Jayne's praises, Jayne seemed to feel awful. That, and also his last request before dying was that Mal wouldn't tell the others the truth. Could it be shame??? Finally, he deliberatly set it up so that he'd be selling Simon and River out with out getting Mal & co. in trouble too. I don't think it was to protect his job. After all, will all the award money he was expecting, I don't think he'd need to be working anymore.

________________

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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Friday, November 15, 2002 8:40 PM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


Quote:

Originally posted by LivingImpaired:
Was I the only one that found the Blue Hands groups's weapon mega freaky?

Joss obviously foreshadows Jayne as the Judas for this ep. in Serenity:

Select to view spoiler:



The crew takes an Alliance officer prisoner. The prisoner tries to buy Jayne off, Janye thinks it over, and replies: "Let's talk price." In the end, we find out that Jayne didn't sell out, but only because the money wasn't good enough. Mal askes Jayne what will happen the day the money is good enough, and Jayne replies something along the lines of "That'll be an interesting day."




Mmkay, more Serenity spoilers.

Select to view spoiler:


In the 80 minute version of the ep that I've seen Jayne never actually says the price line, though it is in shooting script. Otoh, we don't know who, if anyone, helped Dobson get out of his restraints.




"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Friday, November 15, 2002 9:16 PM

FRANKIGAL


So after watching this episode should we take Herc's comment to mean that Book should be considered more of a recurring character then a regular?
Also I was wondering what exactly did River say when she woke up, I couldn't quite make it out

Please Please Please let the ratings be up this week

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Friday, November 15, 2002 9:22 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Gaheris:

Oddly enough, I think River already knows about the betrayl. The way she was glaring at Jayne the entire time and the fact that she's well... psychic make it almost certain that River knows. AND River doesn't seem to like Jayne too much for some reason...



Of course she knew. When Jayne comes back into the hospital room after calling that guy to turn them in, and then River wakes up- the first thing she says to him is, "A copper for a kiss?" Which I read as a reference to Judas and Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. (Betrayed with a kiss, for thirteen pieces of silver.)

Knowing that River has some odd mental powers, if you listen to her "nonsensical" comments, it's obvious that she's often one step ahead of everyone else.

And it's more than just reading people's minds. For instance she knows things before they happen, although it's been disguised somewhat so the other characters aren't noticing it. Like in Out Of Gas- at Simon's party she says, "fire" and Simon thinks she means "blow out the candles" when she actually means that Serenity is on fire. There are a lot of little bits like that throughout the episodes.


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Friday, November 15, 2002 9:58 PM

ARCPLAYER


I really thought Mal was going to space Jayne.
What saved Jayne wasn't begging, it was his request that the others not know about his betrayal. Then Mal lets him live with body language that said "I know I'm going to regret this".

This is my favorite series.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 11:19 PM

BOBKNAPTOR


Quote:

Originally posted by Frankigal:
Also I was wondering what exactly did River say when she woke up, I couldn't quite make it out



She said "A copper for a kiss", according to closed captioning. I couldn't make it out either, after watching it twice.

As for Jayne, I know I risk passionate flames about this, but I just don't get it. I don't like him. He does get to give lots of funny lines, but honestly, I think he's a creep. mind, when I say I don't like "him" I don't like his personality. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy what his character does. He's like Cordelia was in the beginning - the character you love to hate. Like Cordelia, I would like to see him grow, not necessarily soften, but grow. I think he could still be fierce and funny AND be loyal. If his loyalty continues to be an issue, I hope they do get rid of him.

I haven't watched every episode yet, but I have to say that from everything I've seen, Wash is my favorite character, followed closely by Mal. Wash says some of the funniest stuff. And Mal has got so much fierce integrity. I love them. And Zoe has such a dead-pan delivery. She's growing on me for sure.

______________
Can I use "companion" as a verb?

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 4:57 AM

MOUNTAINGAL


Well, i was surprised. Very rarely does Joss throw out what everyone expects...

But, interesting side of Jayne. I think he was ashamed of what he'd done. And i think he may like Simon & River, though he seems to want to convince everyone otherwise. He seemed very antsy & guilty the whole ep.

I loved that he remembered his "line" even though they were waved on. That was...Funny.

Also Kaylee's little "i volunteer, and get sent to pick through trash--HEY look at THAT!!!" was cute.

~S.

You can't take the sky from me.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:58 AM

SNOWSPINNER


I think, after building a reputation as someone who offs characters (Doyle in Angel, Jenny and Tara on Buffy, as well as that guy in the first episode of Buffy that Joss wanted to put in the credits just to kill off), it was more surprising to me that Mal let Jayne live. Once Jayne said that it wasn't like he betrayed Mal, I figured Jayne was a goner.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 8:59 AM

ILOVEJAYNE


Awesome episode!

Much as I wished it wasn't, I knew it had to be Jayne from the moment River sliced him. Question: did she attack because she knew he was going to betray them or did the attack led to the betrayal?

While he did seem disturbed by what had happened to River, I thought he un-betrayed because he'd been arrested, too. (Justice: the traitor is himself betrayed.)

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:05 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


River did not attack Jayne. She attacked the "Blue Sun" logo on his shirt. It's the same reason she ripped off the labels on the cans in "Shindig." Blue Sun was written all over them:



________________

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:36 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by LivingImpaired:
River did not attack Jayne. She attacked the "Blue Sun" logo on his shirt. It's the same reason the ripped off the labels on the cans in "Shindig." Blue Sun was written all over them.

________________

Wow!!! I missed that! I'll have to go back and look again.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:28 AM

JONSP


Of course! "He looks better in red." Lovely chills of resonance. Thanks for connecting the dots.

On the larger thread: Mal should have let Jayne go vaccuum surfing. I actually like Jayne as a character (as much of a d*ckhead as he can be -- what's Chinese for d*ckhead?). But the guy just can't be trusted. We've always known this. Someone who's in it for the money will turn on you the moment someone else offers better money. Which is how Jayne joined the crew in the fist place. Of course Mal is far from a fool: he's never completely trusted Jayne. But now Jayne's gone and done what Mal's always known he could, so Mal will never be able to trust him again, even as little as he did before. Jayne just deserved to be spaced.

Trouble is, Serenity's crew isn't just a bunch of criminals. They've got this family thing going on. Even Jayne demonstrates loyalty that transcends avarice. So how could Mal ignore Jayne's genuine remorse, or the effect his death might have on the rest of the crew? Business associates you can kill -- family you gotta' forgive. Dang it.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:21 AM

ILOVEJAYNE


Good point! I noticed the shirt, thought it ironic, but now I agree, the shirt was the target. (Not that Jayne didn't deserve it!)

I thought Mal handled it well. Jayne seems to respect Mal, and I don't think he realized that Mal a)would find out or b)would take it personally. Nearly being spaced made Jayne think about what he did and moreover, what the others would think. Shame! I bet he's never experienced it before.

And how ironic is it that Simon thinks he was helping? Hero of Canton, Hero of Simon. Where does it end?


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Saturday, November 16, 2002 12:21 PM

MERLINDREA


Could it be that when the series started it was planned to kill Jayne off pretty soon, but because he got so famous with the fans, Joss decided to keep him? And hence changed the ending to Mal letting him live?

I remember reading a comment from one of the Mutant crew saying they were actually very surprised about how much Jayne's character is really liked (not sure if that is the right word, though :-)) by the fans...

And anyway, this has happened already in teh past, with Spike in Buffy. He was supposed to be the current season bad, but the writers liked him too much (and not only them ;-))

Merl

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 2:32 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


Wesley was also destined to die from the start, but the writers decided that they liked him...

________________

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:07 PM

PERSEPHONE


Yeah you're right, Spike was originally supposed to die in "What's My Line" and then Dru and Angel were supposed to take over as the season bads. The writers changed this based on the enormous fanbase Spike was building.

I also wondered if Jayne was supposed to die in Ariel, but it was changed cos his character got so damn popular.

I for one am glad that Mal let him live. Cos I'm just another Jayne groupie. If it had been anyone but Jayne, I would have been cheering Mal on. But as it was I was watching with bated breath, not relaxing until I saw for sure that Mal was gonna let Jayne live. You just never know with ME. You see, killing Doyle and others has paid off, because sometimes I get genuinely scared for a character. That doesn't happen when I'm watching most other shows. I thought they were gonna kill my Giles at the end of last season on Buffy. He was all "silly girl...I'm dying," and I was like "NOOOOO!!!"

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:21 PM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


Quote:

Originally posted by ilovejayne:

I thought Mal handled it well. Jayne seems to respect Mal, and I don't think he realized that Mal a)would find out or b)would take it personally. Nearly being spaced made Jayne think about what he did and moreover, what the others would think. Shame! I bet he's never experienced it before.



I disagree. Jayne knew Mal would take it personally. He may not be the smartest guy on the ship, but he knows that Mal considers the sibs(well, Simon at least) a member of the crew and he knows by now the lengths that Mal will go to to protect one of his own.



"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:53 PM

TINYTIMM


I find it interesting that the Alliance Marshall was first, corrupt and willing to steal the reward from Jayne. Shows a lack of control.

Then the Blue Glove Duo, KILLED the Marshalls. That hints to me that the Alliance Government is corrupt through and through. They couldn't trust the Marshalls with the slightest hint of their existance or mission, knowing that the information would be sold.

Corrupt Governments are terribly inefficient and spend much time in interdepartmental conflicts.

This gives plenty of room for our heros to find a profit, and a sanctuary.

Jeff
Who notes he prefers boring but efficient small governments. Shakespere: First let's kill all the Lawyers.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 4:40 PM

PERSEPHONE


Quote:

Originally posted by LivingImpaired:
River did not attack Jayne. She attacked the "Blue Sun" logo on his shirt. It's the same reason she ripped off the labels on the cans in "Shindig."



I'm in awe of people like you who pick this stuff up. You may already know, but Jose Molina posted on Television Without Pity today confirming this, and he seemed quite pleased with the fans who notice things like that.

http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/ijsbb/forum.cgi?a=list&f=506&d=20
&t=1978807&n=303,20#n


Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 7:16 PM

SENSOU


Quote:

Originally posted by ilovejayne:

And how ironic is it that Simon thinks he was helping? Hero of Canton, Hero of Simon. Where does it end?




I think Simon knew, and he is just a sadistic li'l bastard. Not to say Jayne didn't derseve it!
What I'd like to do to Jayne -->

Sensou
Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Cruel is love when all is hell

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Monday, November 18, 2002 4:38 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


Ok, I was putting my contacts in this morning, when I had another thought. Thought I'd throw it out at you guys and see what you think.

OK, it has been suggested that the BHG are examples of the intended result of the expiraments on River. I personally consider this scenario likely.

Now it has been further suggested that Blue Sun was in cahoots with the government to do this. I have an alternate theory.

Perhaps River is attacking Blue Sun not because she is lashing out at her tormentors, but because she was programmed to. Maybe the government is out to get Blue Sun. If this is the case, then it is possible that at any moment, some little hidden, half-baked program could surface in River's mind, and she could run off and blow up a Blue Sun office building, or something.

Then again, maybe not.

________________

Still unhappy? Okey-doke. I've got two words that are going to take all the pain away: Miniature. Golf.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 9:36 AM

ERICBALL


Part of me wanted Mal to dump Jayne out, altough I really enjoy having the character as part of the crew. Jayne had been a traitor.

The funny thing is, I don't think Jayne will try to shop River to the Feds again. I think he figured out that the Feds who stiffed him got stuffed themselves. Jayne was just glad to get out of there alive.

This is the third time we know about (Jaynestown & Out of Gas) where he's put himself first. It will be interesting to see I Jayne ever puts loyalty above loot (or life, for that matter).

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Monday, November 18, 2002 10:21 AM

BOBKNAPTOR


Quote:

Originally posted by Gaheris:
Well....

Select to view spoiler:


Jayne betrays the Tam's because he is the classic merc and wants money. He "un-betrays" as was so eloquently put for two reasons... A. in my opinion, he realized what REALLY is wrong with River (feels every emotion, and can't block any out) B. The "gorram" feds didn't even pay him but had the brass nerve to arrest him as well for aiding and abetting the fugitives. If I was in Jayne's position I'd be mad too. Just like to say, I like Jayne's scuffle and I'm surprised at Simon's nerve.


That's all! I think Ariel was a great episode



Not sure why this is in spoiler text since the show has already aired... forgive me if I should have the following speculation in spoiler tags as well:

I think he "un-betrays" them for two reasons: 1) realizing he wasn't going to get money out of the Feds for turning them in, the only way to get paid for this job is to finish the one that the rest of the crew is working on... which means getting Simon & River back on the ship safe and sound. 2) he felt guilty because of Simon's assurances that he believed Jayne could have rescued them had the guards not been armed. That seemed to me the first moment when Jayne really started trying to save the Tams. As for the remorse at the end, I think that was again a product of Simon's gushing thanks at his bravery. I think that if Simon had not said so many glowing things about Jayne saving them both, Jayne never would have felt a second's guilt about the entire thing. Even when Mal has him trapped and is threatening to kill him, he says something along the lines of "ah, come on, it's not like I betrayed you."

Sidenote: I REALLY liked Simon in this episode. It was a real treat to watch him step up and save that patient that the idiot alliance doctor nearly killed, especially moments after he finishes telling River that these doctors are the best in the Core. Also loved him when he stood up to that guard who double crossed Jayne. His whole speech about "i know you won't kill us because people more important than you want us alive" was great. Nice to see a meeker/weaker character stand up and have a lot of backbone!

______________
Simon: For this to work, River and I will have to be dead.
Jayne: I'm startin to like this plan!

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Monday, November 18, 2002 10:57 AM

DELVO


Quote:

if Simon had not said so many glowing things about Jayne
Now remember that he seemed so confuzzled at the end of "Jaynesville". It looks like he just doesn't know how to deal with it when others react positively to him.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:08 AM

BOBKNAPTOR


Curse that blasted VCR trauma... I have still not seen Jaynestown!

Mattro: I sent emails and a couple postcards... what else can I do to bribe a tape out of you? Money? Chocolate? Knighthood in the Kingdom of Bob (this is title only, sorry, I have no lands to award, unless you count a small jar of sand a friend brought me back from a beach in Florida)?

Can I send you a tape and some bribey goodness and get the firefly season so far? Please-oh-Please??? I'll be your best friend.....

______________
She belongs in a bug house!

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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:13 AM

HJERMSTED


Contact me at hjermsted@hotmail.com

mattro

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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:17 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by LivingImpaired:
Perhaps River is attacking Blue Sun not because she is lashing out at her tormentors, but because she was programmed to. Maybe the government is out to get Blue Sun. If this is the case, then it is possible that at any moment, some little hidden, half-baked program could surface in River's mind, and she could run off and blow up a Blue Sun office building, or something.


A bit too 9/11 for my taste.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:54 AM

UFO


Well this episode was certainly better than any cattle drive episode, and right up there with "Out of Gas." I have hope for this show if then can leave the cow crap behind and put more Alliance plot elements in. The underlying plot is River and what the Alliance is up to. Give us more of that please! And move the show from Friday night. I'll never watch a Friday show live, and you want me to watch the commercials instead of fast forwarding throught them....right? ;-)

When Jayne gets off the video phone setting up the betrayal, I turn to my wife and say "I love Jayne." She replies "He's an asshole." LMAO!! A little bit of both in that character.

Bottom line...I'm still watching.

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