Did the 'Companion' thing ever bug you in Firefly? by chrisisall

Bytemite wrote

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Ehm... I have to disagree with you on the first part, about Mal thinking ahead. Mal has always struck me as a pretty impulsive, "flying by the seat of his pants and change course on the turn of a dime" kind of guy. He says and does PLENTY of things that it seems to me he's kicking himself about later, even if they seem necessary at the time (and sometimes they aren't). Look at his terse comments to Kaylee in Shindig, or in the movie, after they leave Haven, and he goes to the shuttle and kind of just pauses there to absorb what he's done. He probably did have to do this, but turning Serenity into a Reaver ship and defiling their friends is a very "shoot the poor diseased dog" kind of thing. The thing is, a lot of his ideas are good ideas, so even though he has absolutely TERRIBLE luck, he's able to adjust on the fly and save as many people as possible, which makes him a good captain. Mal isn't the chessmaster, thinking several moves ahead. That's River.

Well I couldn't disagree more. Impulsive! No Mal thinks about his moves. They may appear impulsive but actually he has usually thought the situation through first. More through benefit of experience.

1 - The deploying of the 'Cry Babies' in SERENITY pilot episode
2 - The removal of the Pulse Beacon in SERENITY the Movie.
3 - Using the Reavers to engage in battle with the Operative and allow his/Serenity's escape.
4 - Allowing Saffron to 'organise' the taking of the Lassiter in "Trash"
5 - Taking River along with the 'Vault job' in Serenity the Movie
6 - Posting Jayne as sniper to take out Patience's men in pilot
7 - Shooting the Alliance officer as he's climbing out of the wrecked ship in SERENITY the movie.

I could go on... And River doesn't think ahead - she has seen ahead and therefore knows what's coming. Whole different ball game.

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If it's not about jealousy, why does it upset Mal so much? And why should it hurt Inara?

I'm not sure what you mean here? Do you mean why does he get upset at Inara's occupation? It's not jealousy. Inara's clients don't get closer to Inara than Mal so why would he be jealous? She isn't in love with her clients. If you think it's because they have sex with Inara and Mal doesn't well I'd suggest that love goes beyond just sex. But that's my take on it.

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And also, is this really something Mal does? Hurt people he cares about in a pre-calculated way? He hurts them, no question about, and insults them, but it always seems to me like he was just being insensitive, speaking off the cuff, or that he was mad and not really in control of what he was saying. If it's pre-calculated to rub in Inara's face and hurt her, isn't that a little sadistic?

As stated before, they'd reached an impass. It's a deliberate intent to spark a reaction from Inara. You've heard the old addage about when someone is cheating they're usually waiting to be caught out... Same thing.

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This is quite a bit different from telling Simon that Kaylee's dead and terrifying the poor boy into thinking he and his sister are a few minutes from airlock city. That was a mean joke. I don't really think either he or Inara thought his night with Nandi was funny.

Good examples of how twisted Mal can be.

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And it's almost like you're suggesting Inara needs to be hurt to be shown the error of her ways... Almost like she deserves it?

From Mal's point of view YES. In the past Mal has; insulted, humiliated, and challenged Inara about her occupation, and [in his mind] it didn't sink in. She still continues to be a companion. So he takes upon the opportunity with Nandi as a last ditch effort. Bare in mind the only other occassion that a woman showed interest in Mal was Saffron and that resulted in HIS humilitation. So with Nandi it's a chance to even the score a little. It's a situation Inara is all too familiar with and if she really is as confortable with her occupation as she would have Mal believe then she surely wouldn't have a problem with him engaging with Nandi...? Or would she....?

Thanks for the links about Inara - I had been given this bit of information before, but thanks. It doesn't change my point of view about Inara and her motives though.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 12:02 PM

Pizmobeach wrote:

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Very interesting Som. When I first read your post I thought, "hmmmm.... that's pretty good!" But the more I think about it the more I think Mal just wanted to f*ck. In fact, he's just that much of a clod that he DOESN'T think those kinds of things through, which only ads to Inara's pain. "He didn't even have the decency to think about how it would affect me!"

No Mal has an old fashioned honour. It's not just about knocking boots. Look at the way he did his level best to resist Saffron in 'Our Mrs Reynolds' (In fact a little too much! If that episode had any realism he'd have been doing the whoopee in zero gravity with Saffron in a nanosecond!!!!) but Mal has honour.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 12:05 PM

So despite what she's facing, it doesn't lend any sort of sensitivity or consideration to Inara's behaviour, which in general is clueless, naive, selfish, and immature. Meanwhile, Mal is right about everything he says and does. And he doesn't get jealous?

We really do have different takes on all of this. ^_^'

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Friday, February 19, 2010 12:14 PM

Aliasse: because even though sex may be part of the rituals, in Inara's mind it could be that the ritual is what's important, not the sex. For example, clearly she had sex with Fess Higgins in some sort of coming of age THING, right? And obviously, Magristrate Higgins thought the sex was what's important. But what does Inara emphasize? TEA!

Maybe there's other stuff that happened with Fess that in Inara's mind is more what made Fess a man than the sex, you know? And maybe that's how it is with her other clients and any other rituals she might be performing.

And what with birth control, maybe sex in the core doesn't symbolize sacred creation or romantic/marriage union anymore. Maybe what people think of as meaningful and indication of attachment is pregnancy. Except for single mothers and in vitro fertilization, which is probably also popular.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 12:20 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
So despite what she's facing, it doesn't lend any sort of sensitivity or consideration to Inara's behaviour, which in general is clueless, naive, selfish, and immature. Meanwhile, Mal is right about everything he says and does. And he doesn't get jealous?

We really do have different takes on all of this. ^_^'

Oh you miss understand me. I'm not justifying Mal's actions, I'm merely explaning why his character does what he does. I'm on Inara's side. In fact I've said many times how that scene of her breaking down crying, tears me up something awful. (and this was before I knew about her 'secret'). But I'm being dispassionate in terms of 'reviewing' the material. And I'm doing this within the context of the show. (Please don't think this is how conduct myself in real life!?)

Oh and yes - we do have very different viewpoints on the characters don't we. Interesting huh?

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Friday, February 19, 2010 12:28 PM

Okay, so, I'm just trying to understand here. So, this is Mal's motivation for having sex with Nandi, that he secretly or not-so-secretly wants Inara to find out, so that she'll break down and cry over what a hypocrite she is. And then leave him. Because he's planned it all out ahead of time. And this is what he wanted and intended?

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Friday, February 19, 2010 12:33 PM

MINCINGBEAST

i'm not convinced mal had even the faintest inkling that fornicating with nandi would upset inara, or even the sense that he'd get caught out. but something tells me mal probably doesn't frequent whores.

but i'm curious, byte. how does inara's "secret" add context to her little crying fit over mal's sex life? i would assume that, you know, considering how she broke down into tears right afterwards, that primacy and recency might suggest it was the main reason she was all weepy.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Bytemite:

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Okay, so, I'm just trying to understand here. So, this is Mal's motivation for having sex with Nandi, that he secretly or not-so-secretly wants Inara to find out, so that she'll break down and cry over what a hypocrite she is.

- up to this point yes. Because it illustrates to her, first hand, how painful it is for Mal when she goes with her clients.

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And then leave him. Because he's planned it all out ahead of time. And this is what he wanted and intended?

At this point no. Inara leaving is her regaining the upper hand. This Inara knows will hurt Mal, because Mal is all about 'Family' his 'Crew', and her leaving is the first sign that all is not well with his family so much so that one is prepared to leave.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 12:58 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

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how can it be plausible that she practices religious rituals - important - and has sex with cients - highly not important - both as part of the same work? Isn't this what chrisisall's question is about?

Yep. The ritualistic stuff (and the therapy/life coaching stuff) seems to me a kind of 'dressing' on what is essentially a very basic physical service. Joss was trying to force the idea that Companionship is inherently noble, but ultimately the whole thing just seems a bit pretentious and vainglorious to me, Inara putting across her job so seriously and loftily.

No, the best way I have to think of the Companion service is like 'Goddess for hire' - like a Greek goddess, Athena or Aphrodite attending on you. 'The kiss of a goddess', for a night. And that's quite a service.

But ultimately it's illusory isn't it? It's a mere human woman - just a very pretty one; who has undergone years of training to be refined, classy, graceful; who has learnt psychological techniques to put you at ease etc. - in short, knows everything to provide that 'goddess' experience.

A good-hearted woman could enjoy that I conjure, and find it fulfilling, bringing 'divine' joy and pleasure to the lives of the men and women she selects. But it's an illusion, and money changes hands.

If Inara took an attitude towards Companioning that it was all a fun, harmless charade, and had a sense of humour about it, I would like her better.

Heads should roll

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Friday, February 19, 2010 1:29 PM

1. The companion thing did bug me, mostly because the 'sex is power' thing bugs me. Sex isn't power for men, why does it always end up that way for women? And what does 'sex is power" mean for older women who aren't as sexually attractive? I prefer the power of someone like Patience. :D

2. With the job title being "Companion" there is a lot more than just sex. A companion isn't trying to be "friends" with someone, that requires the client knowing and caring about the companion as a person. Rather, the companion is being a friend to the client...always on the giving side, never the receiving. They are listening, comforting, pleasing the client It's all about the client. That is no friendship. Can attachments/fondness form? Absolutely, but it is still very one-sided and therefore not friendship. IMO, it's the reason Inara is so offended by Atherton's offer of keeping her. He is not interested in her as a companion but simply as a whore. Inara kidded herself into believing that he cared for her as a person. When she tries to throw it back at Mal, it falls flat because he knows they don't care for her on that level.

3. Interesting reads on HOG. I have to admit I'm a little slack-jawed at some interpretations. My take is along the lines of Bytemite...except that Mal was actually acting as a companion. Nandi needs the comforting and release, Mal's just a willing participant for that release. Inara even correlates Mal sleeping with Nandi as companionship. That isn't to say that Mal doesn't benefit: he opens up more with Nandi than he does with his crew...but I think that's a factor of Nandi's training...she knows how to draw him out, and his own lack of true companionship.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, February 19, 2010 1:43 PM

So you think hurting each other is intentional on both their parts?

When Inara leaves, and regains the upper hand, does that negate the sympathy you say you had for her when she was crying about Mal and Nandi?

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Friday, February 19, 2010 1:44 PM

Mincingbeast: It's because what Mal and Nandi had, Inara can't ever have herself. Or at least that's what I think.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 1:47 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Good points Rugbug.

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I prefer the power of someone like Patience. :D

And Nandi perhaps? (a bit similar to Patience, though with some sexual power admittedly)

How about Zoe? The kick-ass variety of female power? Or River - kick-ass + superhuman ability?

Just a little curious on how women view male representations of powerful women...

Heads should roll

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Friday, February 19, 2010 1:50 PM

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1. The companion thing did bug me, mostly because the 'sex is power' thing bugs me. Sex isn't power for men, why does it always end up that way for women? And what does 'sex is power" mean for older women who aren't as sexually attractive? I prefer the power of someone like Patience. :D

Wasn't always this way. Back in Greek and Roman times, it was WOMEN who theoretically couldn't control themselves around MEN. So the men supposedly had the power then, and it justified rape in a lot of cases.

But you're right, it's pretty dumb. It's not like there aren't both men and women who crave sex, and men and women who couldn't care less.

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2. With the job title being "Companion" there is a lot more than just sex. A companion isn't trying to be "friends" with someone, that requires the client knowing and caring about the companion as a person. Rather, the companion is being a friend to the client...always on the giving side, never the receiving. They are listening, comforting, pleasing the client It's all about the client. That is no friendship. Can attachments/fondness form? Absolutely, but it is still very one-sided and therefore not friendship. IMO, it's the reason Inara is so offended by Atherton's offer of keeping her. He is not interested in her as a companion but simply as a whore. Inara kidded herself into believing that he cared for her as a person. When she tries to through it back at Mal, it falls flat because he knows they don't care for her on that level.

Now this I agree with. The sad thing is, I think Inara does think people are her friends, because this IS a way in which she is naive.

But that doesn't mean that's how it is with companions, or that companions are offering anything more than what's on the package. I think that's a personality issue with Inara more than it is her profession, because of the point about objectivity I brought up earlier, I doubt companions are encouraged to make friends with clients.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 1:55 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Pizmobeach wrote:

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Very interesting Som. When I first read your post I thought, "hmmmm.... that's pretty good!" But the more I think about it the more I think Mal just wanted to f*ck. In fact, he's just that much of a clod that he DOESN'T think those kinds of things through, which only ads to Inara's pain. "He didn't even have the decency to think about how it would affect me!"

No Mal has an old fashioned honour. It's not just about knocking boots. Look at the way he did his level best to resist Saffron in 'Our Mrs Reynolds' (In fact a little too much! If that episode had any realism he'd have been doing the whoopee in zero gravity with Saffron in a nanosecond!!!!) but Mal has honour.

Saffron appeared to be an innocent castaway, nearly a slave that was left on the ship, whereas Nandi was an Ex-Companion, very different. There's respect and hospitality for the wayward stranger and then there's LUST for a Companion that has training.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, February 19, 2010 1:59 PM

Originally posted by Bytemite:

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So you think hurting each other is intentional on both their parts?

Yes - This is a Joss show after all, and he frequently shows the ugly side of people falling in love.

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When Inara leaves, and regains the upper hand, does that negate the sympathy you say you had for her when she was crying about Mal and Nandi?

No not at all. I understood the characters choice as a consequence. This is why Joss' work is so interesting, especially when it comes to character. He gives 'reasons' as to why his characters do what they do. As a viewer it puts you in an unusual position. The hero often does unheroic things and this causes you to shift loyalties. It's pretty clever stuff.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:02 PM

MINCINGBEAST

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Mincingbeast: It's because what Mal and Nandi had, Inara can't ever have herself. Or at least that's what I think.

sex? not to be flippant. mal and nandi had sex. or do you mean, connection, time, etc...?

actually, hate to say it, but i really liked mal and nandi as a couple (horrible acting performance aside).

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:08 PM

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If Inara took an attitude towards Companioning that it was all a fun, harmless charade, and had a sense of humour about it, I would like her better.

Now here's an interesting thought...

It seems to me like Inara is only defensive about her profession to Mal and people who belittle it because it's her source of independence.

It also seems to me like Inara is someone who has layers. So what if she DOES have a sense of humour about it with people who aren't constantly putting her down and disrespecting her?

Like, maybe to the people who are jerks about it, she acts the way she does to keep up the mystique?

But for someone like Jayne, asking if she has some funny whoring stories, she doesn't have to act all offended. Though she does have to respect her clients privacy.

You comment makes me wonder, do we really know how Inara feels about her job? I don't think it's negative, otherwise she wouldn't defend it, but what if she doesn't really take it seriously?

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:12 PM

Som: I have to say, if your interpretation of Mal and Inara's characters are correct, and they really are that petty, shallow, and spiteful, I can't say I really like them much or have much sympathy for them.

I should rewatch the series and try to see it from your perspective. I might be surprised to find myself agreeing, and start to hate the two of them. I wonder if this would change my enjoyment of Firefly? For the longest time, I've had kind of the most interest in the Mal and Inara dynamic, because they're so fascinating to watch. If I were to suddenly find both characters utterly unlikeable, would I be as interested in Firefly as I am? It's an interesting question, and definitely something I should look into.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:12 PM

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

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Saffron appeared to be an innocent castaway, nearly a slave that was left on the ship, whereas Nandi was an Ex-Companion, very different. There's respect and hospitality for the wayward stranger and then there's LUST for a Companion that has training.

LUST has no reason!!! It would NOT stand aside and say here's an innocent.... or is that just the fact that I find Saffron (Christina) to be a Nerve-Shattering-Redhead!!!! Must be me but I'd drink her bath water! Did I just type that aloud?!

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:12 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

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2. With the job title being "Companion" there is a lot more than just sex. A companion isn't trying to be "friends" with someone, that requires the client knowing and caring about the companion as a person. Rather, the companion is being a friend to the client...always on the giving side, never the receiving. They are listening, comforting, pleasing the client It's all about the client. That is no friendship. Can attachments/fondness form? Absolutely, but it is still very one-sided and therefore not friendship. IMO, it's the reason Inara is so offended by Atherton's offer of keeping her. He is not interested in her as a companion but simply as a whore. Inara kidded herself into believing that he cared for her as a person. When she tries to throw it back at Mal, it falls flat because he knows they don't care for her on that level.

Now this I agree with. The sad thing is, I think Inara does think people are her friends, because this IS a way in which she is naive.

But that doesn't mean that's how it is with companions, or that companions are offering anything more than what's on the package. I think that's a personality issue with Inara more than it is her profession, because of the point about objectivity I brought up earlier, I doubt companions are encouraged to make friends with clients.

Dang...you quoted my sad misspelling (and some grammar, punctuation errors I don't care to fix). :)

Anyway, I never saw Inara viewing her clients as anything more than that...although I do think she takes some pride in their attachment to her. Afterall, attachment would be a sign of a job well done and who doesn't want to take pride in their work. :D

I think Inara's weakness is that she craves for more, she wants a companion of her own, but she can never allow that to happen.

(Please note: my perspectives are all based upon not knowing Inara's secret. I haven't pursued that answer, I don't read fan-fic, etc. I'm mostly okay with the 'verse as it is. Some pondering is fun, getting actual answers, though can be unsatisfying. I guess I now know the secret, but just from quick glances on this thread).

KPO: Nandi's power is more appealing to me than a companion's. But, while Nandi stepped out of the role of companion/whore, she is still using sex to gain whatever measure of power she can. I can take a step back from that and see her as a businesswoman, using the markets available to her, which is the appealing aspect.

(And oddly, while I affirm Zoe's power, she was the character I liked the least, possibly because I identify with her the most...or maybe I'm not a huge fan of Gina's. (don't hate me). :D )

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:21 PM

I dunno, I can still see and respect Inara as a business women. I think she drove a hard bargain in Out of Gas.

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Anyway, I never saw Inara viewing her clients as anything more than that...although I do think she takes some pride in their attachment to her. Afterall, attachment would be a sign of a job well done and who doesn't want to take pride in their work. :D

That seems pretty unethical to me. Pride in manipulating people?

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:21 PM

Originally posted by Bytemite:

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Som: I have to say, if your interpretation of Mal and Inara's characters are correct, and they really are that petty, shallow, and spiteful, I can't say I really like them much or have much sympathy for them.

I should rewatch the series and try to see it from your perspective. I might be surprised to find myself agreeing, and start to hate the two of them.

Oh dear really?! I hate to think I've caused you to think that. :(

Deep down I like to think Joss and his writers draw from reality (not immitate but draw from) and embue his characters with traits witnessed/experinced in real life.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:21 PM

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
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So you think hurting each other is intentional on both their parts?

Yes - This is a Joss show after all, and he frequently shows the ugly side of people falling in love.

I can agree that at times, both Mal and Inara intentionally hurt each other. Mal calling her whore, Inara calling him petty thief, etc. But I cannot believe that Mal slept with Nandi to hurt Inara. If he wanted to hurt her, he would've slept with Saffron.

Mal slept with Nandi because there was romantic lighting, imminent danger, fine rice wine, good company and a willing partner. How many untethered (and sadly, tethered) adults wouldn't get busy in that scenario?

One thing I might agree with you on, however: Inara finally realizes what it's like for Mal when she sleeps with clients. But that only holds true if she believes that Mal has real feelings for her, rather than just attraction/curiosity. I think it's more likely, though, that she just realizes the depth of her feelings for Mal and has to run away from them, knowing that they can never really be together.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:27 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I dunno, I can still see and respect Inara as a business women. I think she drove a hard bargain in Out of Gas.

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Anyway, I never saw Inara viewing her clients as anything more than that...although I do think she takes some pride in their attachment to her. Afterall, attachment would be a sign of a job well done and who doesn't want to take pride in their work. :D

That seems pretty unethical to me. Pride in manipulating people?

Oops...no. Not what I meant. Not pride in manipulation, but pride in meeting the need.

(And yes, I respect Inara as a business woman...and as a person. Her care of Fess Higgins, how she stood up to his father, etc was commendable.)

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:28 PM

Som: Don't worry about it. This is good. I joined in this fray to try to understand other people's perspectives and see if I find something new to explore. This definitely qualifies.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:35 PM

Originally posted by RugBug:

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I can agree that at times, both Mal and Inara intentionally hurt each other. Mal calling her whore, Inara calling him petty thief, etc. But I cannot believe that Mal slept with Nandi to hurt Inara. If he wanted to hurt her, he would've slept with Saffron.

Fair point. I think hurt was a by product of his action, rather than the intent. The intent was maybe to inform Inara of how her actions as a companion hurts him [Mal].

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Mal slept with Nandi because there was romantic lighting, imminent danger, fine rice wine, good company and a willing partner. How many untethered (and sadly, tethered) adults wouldn't get busy in that scenario?

Yeah, OK maybe. I'll just about conceed with this one although I think it's significant that it's Nandi (Inara's friend, and not just any 'whore'). I mean Inara is inviting Mal to a whore house, obviously he would be tempted, and Inara would be aware of that, but did Inara really think he'd go through with it? And with Nandi... To me everything that Mal has done in the past contradict his actions with Nandi - But you make a very good point. It's enough I must admit.

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One thing I might agree with you on, however: Inara finally realizes what it's like for Mal when she sleeps with clients. But that only holds true if she believes that Mal has real feelings for her, rather than just attraction/curiosity. I think it's more likely, though, that she just realizes the depth of her feelings for Mal and has to run away from them, knowing that they can never really be together.

I think when you are in love with someone you also want to believe that that someone loves you back... So I think it's fair to assume that Inara believes/knows that Mal has feeling for her....

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:40 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Som: Don't worry about it. This is good. I joined in this fray to try to understand other people's perspectives and see if I find something new to explore. This definitely qualifies.

Thank you Bytemite. Likewise. And honestly I'm now going to go to bed and watch Hearts Of Gold from what you were saying earlier - so thanks.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:50 PM

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by RugBug:

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I can agree that at times, both Mal and Inara intentionally hurt each other. Mal calling her whore, Inara calling him petty thief, etc. But I cannot believe that Mal slept with Nandi to hurt Inara. If he wanted to hurt her, he would've slept with Saffron.

Fair point. I think hurt was a by product of his action, rather than the intent. The intent was maybe to inform Inara of how her actions as a companion hurts him [Mal].

Again, Saffron would've worked if the intent was to show Inara what it felt like to be on the other side. Now, I wouldn't put it past Mal to come up with this as an after thought 'she does the same thing to me all the time' justification for hurting her. But proceeding with the action on that intent...I just can't believe it. I would have to loathe Mal...and I can't do that.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
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Mal slept with Nandi because there was romantic lighting, imminent danger, fine rice wine, good company and a willing partner. How many untethered (and sadly, tethered) adults wouldn't get busy in that scenario?
Yeah, OK maybe. I'll just about conceed with this one although I think it's significant that it's Nandi (Inara's friend, and not just any 'whore'). I mean Inara is inviting Mal to a whore house, obviously he would be tempted, and Inara would be aware of that, but did Inara really think he'd go through with it? And with Nandi... To me everything that Mal has done in the past contradict his actions with Nandi - But you make a very good point. It's enough I must admit.

Mal is not tempted by just anyone. That's Jayne and his 'willin' women'. Mal needs more than willing, he needs a connection. He found that with Nandi. Saffron was willing, but there was no connection, although she did an excellent job of getting him to the point that connection or not, he would've had a hard time saying no.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Quote:
One thing I might agree with you on, however: Inara finally realizes what it's like for Mal when she sleeps with clients. But that only holds true if she believes that Mal has real feelings for her, rather than just attraction/curiosity. I think it's more likely, though, that she just realizes the depth of her feelings for Mal and has to run away from them, knowing that they can never really be together.

I think when you are in love with someone you also want to believe that that someone loves you back... So I think it's fair to assume that Inara believes/knows that Mal has feeling for her....

I think we WANT to believe that someone loves us back...but that most of the time, we play the "does he/doesn't he" dance, and which side we end up on depends on the day..and his recent actions. Inara has enough confidence and experience to know that Mal is attracted to her has some feelings but the depth of them is unknown. And in a way, feelings are trivial to the situation, because Inara is the one with the power. Mal cannot be with her if she's a companion but he won't ask her to give up her career. Inara won't give up her career for him. They are at an impasse. She can't fool herself any longer so she needs to remove herself.

Been there, done that. Have the T-shirt. (which could cloud my opinions. :D)

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:55 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
or maybe I'm not a huge fan of Gina's. (don't hate me). :D

lol don't worry, it wasn't a leading question. But did you mean what you said with:

Quote:
she was the character I liked the least, possibly because I identify with her the most...

Not sure if you were being mysterious (which is cool) or a mistype...?

Heads should roll

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Friday, February 19, 2010 3:08 PM

Originally posted by RugBug:

Quote:
Again, Saffron would've worked if the intent was to show Inara what it felt like to be on the other side. Now, I wouldn't put it past Mal to come up with this as an after thought 'she does the same thing to me all the time' justification for hurting her. But proceeding with the action on that intent...I just can't believe it. I would have to loathe Mal...and I can't do that.

No because Saffron as far as Mal knew was not a companion. This was the necessary element that made Nandi so significant to highlight his point. The other thing against Saffron being 'used' like that is that actually Mal could see Inara was hurt from when they were all in the cargo bay. So sleeping with Saffrom was irrelevant. Also at that point Mal and Inara are still trading petty blows with one another. By the time Hearts of Gold comes along more time has passed between them without a resolve - as you say an impass - so tougher measures were necessary.

Quote:
Mal is not tempted by just anyone. That's Jayne and his 'willin' women'. Mal needs more than willing, he needs a connection. He found that with Nandi. Saffron was willing, but there was no connection, although she did an excellent job of getting him to the point that connection or not, he would've had a hard time saying no.

Yes true. Saffron did get him to talk about his mother though

Quote:
I think we WANT to believe that someone loves us back...but that most of the time, we play the "does he/doesn't he" dance, and which side we end up on depends on the day..and his recent actions. Inara has enough confidence and experience to know that Mal is attracted to her has some feelings but the depth of them is unknown. And in a way, feelings are trivial to the situation, because Inara is the one with the power. Mal cannot be with her if she's a companion but he won't ask her to give up her career. Inara won't give up her career for him. They are at an impasse. She can't fool herself any longer so she needs to remove herself.

Absolutely

Quote:
Been there, done that. Have the T-shirt. (which could cloud my opinions. :D)

Dito

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Friday, February 19, 2010 3:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
or maybe I'm not a huge fan of Gina's. (don't hate me). :D

lol don't worry, it wasn't a leading question. But did you mean what you said with:

Quote:
she was the character I liked the least, possibly because I identify with her the most...

Not sure if you were being mysterious (which is cool) or a mistype...?

Heads should roll

Nope, meant it...although know it sounds a bit self-loathing. Not my intention, but she doesn't challenge me the way some of the other characters do. I feel like I've got her pretty figured out so she's a bit bland to me.

Really though, a lot of it has to do with not liking Gina...and that's because I saw her on Angel first and REALLY hated the character. (she also breathes really loud sometimes which grates on me. So petty but it's the truth).

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, February 19, 2010 3:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Quote:
Again, Saffron would've worked if the intent was to show Inara what it felt like to be on the other side. Now, I wouldn't put it past Mal to come up with this as an after thought 'she does the same thing to me all the time' justification for hurting her. But proceeding with the action on that intent...I just can't believe it. I would have to loathe Mal...and I can't do that.

No because Saffron as far as Mal knew was not a companion. This was the necessary element that made Nandi so significant to highlight his point. The other thing against Saffron being 'used' like that is that actually Mal could see Inara was hurt from when they were all in the cargo bay. So sleeping with Saffrom was irrelevant. Also at that point Mal and Inara are still trading petty blows with one another. By the time Hearts of Gold comes along more time has passed between them without a resolve - as you say an impass - so tougher measures were necessary.

Nandi being a companion meant there should be no strings attached with the sex. As for as Mal is concerned there would've been strings for Saffron. Mal only lets strings exist if HE says they can. He doesn't want them with Saffron, so can't sleep with her. He doesn't have to worry about them with Nandi.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Quote:
Mal is not tempted by just anyone. That's Jayne and his 'willin' women'. Mal needs more than willing, he needs a connection. He found that with Nandi. Saffron was willing, but there was no connection, although she did an excellent job of getting him to the point that connection or not, he would've had a hard time saying no.
Yes true. Saffron did get him to talk about his mother though

Yep. Mal wants to open up...craves it in fact..but can't with people close to him. Saffron isn't close (and won't be close) and therefore she's SAFE. She's giving to Mal what companion's give their clients...and has in fact had that type of training.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 2:59 PM

THESCARREDMAN

I have to agree with R. A. Heinlein on the subject: "Nearly the most ridiculous notion people have ever entertained is the belief that something a woman has an endless supply of is nevertheless merchandise to be hoarded and bartered. That being said, if I were a woman raised in twentieth-century America, I would want at least a ruby necklace rather than just dinner and a show."

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 4:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It comes from the idea that I wouldn't want my daughter to be one, yet I would have been tempted to use the service from someone else's daughter in my 20's. The inherent hypocracy there is the source of the discomfort, I conjure.

And yeah, this culture is whack when it comes to sex roles.

I totally agree with this. Which I think you can take a step further and point it right back at men. What wouldn't we want our daughter or sister in such a profession? To me it's because we know the male mindset all too well. There are plenty of men who would treat those women as nothing but a piece of meat. Most guys probably feel some guilt thinking that they've at the very least fantasied about a purely physical encounter without a single thought about a woman's personality or feelings. So, for guys it probably all comes back to self guilt really. That's my guess at least.

"Piece of meat"---the whole POINT is that this is REPEATEDLY and POINTEDLY a "business" transaction. Inara says it, Mal says it, Nandi says it, Wash...
Okay.

What are you saying when you get on the Cortex to contract a Companion?

"I want a nice person I can count on whose qualities (including flaws) I appreciate on a deep, over-time human level."

No--you want the temporary, glorious experience of being entertained, feasting your eyes and ears and spirit and whatever else on the cultivated presence of Love Potion #9 in human form. Thus the money. Thus the various "I'd tap that" comments in this thread(TMI, guys, thanks). Thus the "I'd contract one, but wouldn't let my daughter do it".

Meat, people.

Seriously, I think the only reason Mal might actually "love" Inara is he hates this whole persona. Which is the thing people pay her for, and I think the further objectification of women, though she is on the highest pedestal yet. I think this may be intended as ironic.

The whole point is that, under all the pretty, business transactors must view each other on a primary level AS meat. Doesn't mean they can't like each other, or play fair. But Inara being this as a professional means that things must stay in the business category. (Thus her often-repeated rule about not servicing crew or friends...)

Theripists, whatever kind they are, can be kind, can be helpful, can be comforting, can even help you turn your life around. That doesn't make them friends, which from what I've heard completely complicates a therapist's mission.

This totally shoots down the "oh, it's ok if they're friends"---if she's doing her job right, they can't be "friends" in that sense. Because that would make it a friendship transaction, not a business one.

Heitara:

Someone may have posted this, but Inara's exact job description existed in the ancient Greek world and came to it's height in the ancient Roman world. (BTW, geisha were/are specifically not prostitutes, they were banned from taking that kind of client back in the 1700s, on pain of death...)

The heitara was the woman you showed off, who was endlessly more fascinating, educated, entertaining, and sexy than any legal property of yours could ever be (ie your wife).

Because your party guests lusting after your wife didn't equal more kudos to you(unlike if they wanted the companion on your arm), it meant they were going to betray the state values with the horrors of adultery and paternity disruption.

Point being, I don't think that Inara's profession has been all that changed--oooh, legal. Must be different. No, just glorified.

I also wouldn't point to her as a stunning example of equal sex roles--again, the paying thing. It's part of her JOB.

Freeing women from unequal sex roles doesn't mean showcasing them as Love Potion #9.

__

Going for a ride.

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:17 PM

AnotherSky: Everything you just said.

I agree Mal hates it, because I do think he's the jealous type, I just think he can also simultaneously respect that she's a business woman and is apparently good at what she does. I don't think he blames her so much as he blames and LOATHES her clients.

But I also think his feelings for Inara are more than just that he hates what she does. His crew provides a sense of foundation and home, which stabilizes him. But Inara is a cause of both strong emotional responses and a calming influence, good for him because he's very angry and bitter, but there's also ways I can see that he's become emotionally numbed since the war. I kind of see Mal as trying to learn how to be human again, healing and relearning how to be normal and have normal emotional responses.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
If Inara took an attitude towards Companioning that it was all a fun, harmless charade, and had a sense of humour about it, I would like her better.

Now here's an interesting thought...

It seems to me like Inara is only defensive about her profession to Mal and people who belittle it because it's her source of independence.

It also seems to me like Inara is someone who has layers. So what if she DOES have a sense of humour about it with people who aren't constantly putting her down and disrespecting her?

Like, maybe to the people who are jerks about it, she acts the way she does to keep up the mystique?

But for someone like Jayne, asking if she has some funny whoring stories, she doesn't have to act all offended. Though she does have to respect her clients privacy.

You comment makes me wonder, do we really know how Inara feels about her job? I don't think it's negative, otherwise she wouldn't defend it, but what if she doesn't really take it seriously?

I don't think she bothers with Jayne. That was just my interpretation.

And people will defend wobbly-headed geisha dolls, you know. And those can come with some pretty negative baggage attached. Just saying.

__

Going for a ride.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
mal4prez, I suddenly feel like the boy in the Parade who calls out that the Emperor has no clothes on because I can’t help feeling that a Companion is a euphemism for a sex worker.
I think the show presents something different which you aren't seeing. You're interpreting things to fit your view - there never was any suggestion that Inara couldn't get her own ticket to the ball, for instance. You aren't allowing for everything that is presented.

I'll agree that this Guild thing is not something that can exist today, or even in the near future, but we're talking about 500 years from now. The whole point is that things - including the human mentality - will be different.

ETA: Also, we see Inara do much much more than have sex and drink tea! You might not see all those others things if you're excessively focused... I must admit, it is easy to get tunnel vision with Inara on screen. Even for a hetero female. :)

Quote:
And, I too, would love for women to have power by controlling their own sexuality as they desire, in the future, but I think it could have been better served and achieved by making prostitution legal, organized, accepted, and controlled by the Guild without all the unnecessary endowments of high status and social esteem which seem to have been tagged on to convince us that what Inara does is valid and valuable to maintain the social structure and culture of core worlds who embrace enlightenment and moral integrity.

Sure, the writers of the show gave her all that status to force the viewer to reexamine our assumptions about someone who would exchange sex for money. But again, that's not all there is to it. Inara wins respect and high status because there is more to her. Cause and effect: the cause is her skills, the effect is her status. Not the other way around.

Or do you really not see the skills? Is the sexual aspect that blinding?

Quote:
You have to admit, it’s a little gullible to assume that any profession in the future, especially sex work, oh, sorry Companioning, would be held in that high esteem, when none are today.
No, I don't have to admit that! In fact, I think it's a little silly to assume that the rules that apply today will still hold in 500 years. Again - look at how different everything was 100 years ago, only 1/5 of that time!

Quote:
And, any educated person can retire and do whatever they want; some marginally educated people can retire and do whatever they want… waves to our own esteemed Arnold.
I don't see how this applies. It's not about Inara retiring and doing what she wants. It's about a Companion - any Companion - having certain skills as a result of her training that would be valued by those who don't have a hang-up over her sexual history.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

I'm going to take this in a new direction. Say Inara was a geisha, to take something in a similar vein--or say she was ANY kind of private entertainer, say a private entertainer without the sex. I'm not going to make this all about the sex. Because sex is "just one of her many skills", she says it herself.

She receives pay for those skills, for the combined "package". Her status as an personal-relationship-entertainer makes her easily commodified.

I would also ask how we sort out if the Companionizing[can I use that as a verb?] is one of those good Alliance things, ugly Alliance things (like some wardrobe) or bad Alliance things (like the belief systems our heroes are always railing about)...just interested in how that got sorted for people. Any interpretations?

Another question:

How much control do you have of your own sexuality if you must be like a Jedi(forgive the analogy) and "not love"--not have "entanglements" outside your sex profession. To create the illusion for clients that they are your one obsession, it certainly can't be known that you're attached elsewhere, for free...Thus Atherton's little hissy fit when Mal "stole" her for a dance. One dance, and he didn't pay for the honor. During Atherton's turn, too.

Inara's profession is being paid to be personal.

Kinda turns on it's head the bit about buying the cow if the milk is free, because even when the woman involved is so sexually "liberated", there's still the question of money buying what can also be freely given in a different context.

__

Going for a ride.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 7:46 AM

I think the Alliance sees it as good and forward thinking. They took abused women in the sex trade and gave them some power and self-determination.

Of course, this brings up the point of that R.A. Heinlein quote. There's something a little

about men who say they're supportive of sex liberation among women and call it good and progressive and empowering when it really just means they get more sex. It strikes me as a conflict of interest. Especially when at the same time being all high-minded, they say that the women in question should ask for a ruby necklace instead of dinner and a movie.

The quote is inherently contradictory, first devaluing what the woman offers, "ridiculous... to be hoarded and bartered," and then encouraging that same activity, because apparently that's how women are in the modern time, unaffectionate and calculating. Everything is an exchange, so they're all whores, until they begin to sleep with men with no strings attached.

Which flies in the face of thousands of years of evolution, being that birth control wasn't invented until recently. Sorry, but from an evolutionary perspective it's pretty obvious to see who benefits most from such an agenda.

And therein perhaps lies the problem with the angle Joss approached this.

But within the verse as constructed, I still support women having choice about their profession, even if that profession is Companion. And if they have to tell themselves that contracting with them is some quasi-mystical experience, if that's what it takes for them to feel like they have some kind of independence and stability, then do what you have to girl.

Second question: Absolutely. Of course, there are examples of courtesans in France who had husbands at the time, which then you might be able to justify being paid, since as represented they might be reluctant, and the money seals the deal. But giving freely to someone who with no vows or legal recognition has been exchanged, yes, that probably does devalue what a companion might be offering. And that's very likely what that scene in Shindig was showing.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:30 AM

ALIASSE

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
how can it be plausible that she practices religious rituals - important - and has sex with cients - highly not important - both as part of the same work? Isn't this what chrisisall's question is about?

Joss was trying to FORCE (my caps) the idea that Companionship is inherently noble...No, the best way I have to think of the Companion service is like 'Goddess for hire'...And that's quite a service. But ultimately it's illusory isn't it? It's a mere human woman - just a very pretty one; who has undergone years of training to be refined, classy, graceful; who has learnt psychological techniques to put you at ease etc. - in short, knows everything to provide that 'goddess' experience...but it's an illusion, and money changes hands.

Wow, this has put into words so well the way I see the Companion (my editing notwithstanding, which I hope you don't mind). I get the impression that those who love Inara love her for her qualities and maybe even in spite of the fact that she is a Companion - that her being a Companion has got nothing to do with loving her.

I agree that Joss was trying to force an idea but at the same time he didn't back away from showing the hour glass in the pilot - the goddess experience is time-limited and when your time's up you're out.

http://www.swooning.net/viewstory.php?sid=36&chapter=1 This is a link to a fic I've recced a few times, not only because it is gloriously smutty but also because it's the only one I've come across that convincingly portrays the utter calculation of what a Companion does. And I don't think you have to believe that the Guild manipulated and betrayed young Companions to agree that the training could have been a lot like this.

P.S. I shall be freely plagiarising chunks of this post of yours for fanfics to come, if that's all right with you mate :)

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:40 AM

ALIASSE

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Aliasse: because even though sex may be part of the rituals, in Inara's mind it could be that the ritual is what's important, not the sex. For example, clearly she had sex with Fess Higgins in some sort of coming of age THING, right? And obviously, Magristrate Higgins thought the sex was what's important. But what does Inara emphasize? TEA!

Maybe there's other stuff that happened with Fess that in Inara's mind is more what made Fess a man than the sex, you know? And maybe that's how it is with her other clients and any other rituals she might be performing.

But I thought your point was that people in the Core in general, not just Inara, might have developed a 'sex is above all a recreational activity' belief. In emphasising the tea aspect of her encounter with Fess Higgins, she may be betraying HER own beliefs about the relative unimportance of sex, but that doesn't show that other people think this way too.

Also, the tea is a distancing, respectifying (yes, that's a word ahem) thing - 'I'm not just a whore, I do really good tea ritual too and that proves it.'

Could Inara have done what she did for FH without being a Companion?

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:59 AM

Quote:
But I thought your point was that people in the Core in general, not just Inara, might have developed a 'sex is above all a recreational activity' belief. In emphasising the tea aspect of her encounter with Fess Higgins, she may be betraying HER own beliefs about the relative unimportance of sex, but that doesn't show that other people think this way too.

Well, no, but the only three people we ever see in depth from the Core are Simon, Inara, and River.

River, good luck inferring anything from her. Generally River's sexuality isn't something I'm that comfortable studying anyway. She's kind of still a child.

Simon's too proper to really get a read on whether he thinks sex is important or not; obviously he's able to recognize that Mal as big brother might be dangerous if it looked like Kaylee had been taken advantage of, and might react the same way in regards to River. His reaction to Kaylee asking Inara about her appointments might be prudishness, and that's how Kaylee takes it, leading to the subsequent conversations about what's proper. But maybe he's just surprised to hear it from Kaylee, who can seem pretty innocent. At the very most, it could possibly be argued that Simon sees sex as something vulgar. But either way, it seems to me it's not something he really cares about, or maybe even thinks about much. Which again suggests that core worlders don't really see it as anything important.

And now here's Inara, who seems to think more about the ritual and therapeutic aspect of her profession than the sex.

So 2/3 Core Worlders we've been introduced to in the Firefly verse don't seem to value sex highly. It's a small sample size, I grant you, but then my suggestion was speculative.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:16 AM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Isn't the Core largely Buddhist (or some futuristic form of Buddhism)? So that might have an effect on the way they approach sex in a broader cultural sense - that sex for itself should take backseat to other priorities (disciplining of the self away from the *desire*, etc) which would be slightly more neutral view of sex than it being seen as "dirty" or "vulgar" or sinful.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:32 AM

Yep, though there's a minor branch of Buddhism that's ritualistic as opposed to meditative, and it has quite a repository of sex rituals. You've probably heard of it, it's called Vajrayana Buddhism or Tantric Buddhism.

Buddhism actually speaks of two roads to enlightenment, one through wisdom and one through compassion. While self-discipline is a major part of the religion, the religion can't be said to specifically endorse complete removal from passion or feeling, since both involve connecting to other beings and thus the greater universe.

A better explanation is to look at Buddhism in the sense that it is intended to relieve suffering, and desire without reward can be considered a form of suffering. Self-discipline comes in to moderate desire, but there are other ways to alleviate suffering besides self-discipline; for example, self-discipline doesn't exactly feed a starving village (the compassion side of enlightenment). The wisdom path is internal, but to really emulate the Buddha you also have to follow the path of compassion, which is external.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:54 AM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Tantra, baby!

Thanks for typing that out, I'm only somewhat familiar with Buddhism myself so I wasn't aware of the delineation btwn the two paths. I think approaching Inara through her spiritual beliefs (which are Buddhist) is a good way of approaching her work and how she sees it.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:34 PM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by Aliasse:
I agree that Joss was trying to force an idea but at the same time he didn't back away from showing the hour glass in the pilot - the goddess experience is time-limited and when your time's up you're out.

Yes - there is certainly an edge to some of the "companion" scenes, especially that first one. Then there's the whole plot of Shindig, with one of Inara's carefully chosen, spiritually compatible clients turning out to be a complete

with a veneer of sophistication.

I don't think Joss is saying to anybody that you have to accept "Companionship" any more than you have to agree with the rest of our BDH's lifestyle choices. Moral ambiguity always was part of the appeal of Firefly...

Its a fair bet that, had the series continued, Joss would have shown us more of the darker aspects to Companionship and the Guild. (Otherwise, someone would have had to inquire who he was and what had he done with the real Joss Wheedon...)

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:42 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
P.S. I shall be freely plagiarising chunks of this post of yours for fanfics to come, if that's all right with you mate :)

Feel free, amiga :)

I'm going to check out that fanfic now - never quite know where to start myself with fanfic , but am always interested in people's faves/recommendations.

Heads should roll

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Aliasse:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Aliasse: because even though sex may be part of the rituals, in Inara's mind it could be that the ritual is what's important, not the sex. For example, clearly she had sex with Fess Higgins in some sort of coming of age THING, right? And obviously, Magristrate Higgins thought the sex was what's important. But what does Inara emphasize? TEA!

Maybe there's other stuff that happened with Fess that in Inara's mind is more what made Fess a man than the sex, you know? And maybe that's how it is with her other clients and any other rituals she might be performing.

But I thought your point was that people in the Core in general, not just Inara, might have developed a 'sex is above all a recreational activity' belief. In emphasising the tea aspect of her encounter with Fess Higgins, she may be betraying HER own beliefs about the relative unimportance of sex, but that doesn't show that other people think this way too.

Also, the tea is a distancing, respectifying (yes, that's a word ahem) thing - 'I'm not just a whore, I do really good tea ritual too and that proves it.'

Could Inara have done what she did for FH without being a Companion?

Fess's rich daddy decided to pull the whole "you ain't a man until you've had sex" gag--thus the reason for contracting Inara. Fess' first sexual experience would be

1.)guaranteed(she is paid),
2.)minimized awkwardness (she has skillz), and
3.) Kaylee's version of "rich"--something that is high-class, glorified, and more important.

I think with the tea, Inara is serving as counterpoint to Magistrate Higgins' rather crude ideas and way of dominating everyone--she gives Fess that big speech about standing up for himself.
But still has sex with him(if I recall). Thus we actually keep both factions happy.

What would the episode have been like if she, as a Companion, hadn't had sex with him? Would he still have had the "moral invigoration and courage" to stand up to his father? Could you do that in this series? Cynical, but that's my burning question.
__

Going for a ride.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 3:07 PM