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Originally posted by Storymark:


That assumes infallibility on the part of the original creator, which is blindly fan-ish in and of itself. Take, for instance, that there are many highly lauded professional filmmakers who are Star Wars fans. I have very little doubt that there are at the least, a few who could have written better scripts than the sequels had - given that even Lucas admits he's not much of a writer. Would they have been the stories he wanted to tell - no, but that does not mean they could not have been better.

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Originally posted by ImNotHere:

Hey! was it you who wrote the "Story So Far" crawl for Star Wars Episode 1?

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Originally posted by Storymark:
I don't know anyone, whether they had seen the series or not, who was badmouthing the movie as they left. There was no "it's depressing" bad word of mouth problem. It had decent word-of-mouth.

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Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
...Dislike the story teller/telling if that's your choice, but understand that on the fan sites, you will be little more than an annoyance than an enlightened individual with something important to say.

That's just my 2cp though.

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Originally posted by two:

Superfanboys like “chrisisall” “ImNotHere” and “Stegasaurus” are destructive to Joss Whedon's career.

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I notice that “chrisisall” “ImNotHere” and “Stegasaurus” posted nothing in the Blue Sun Room. Not one damn thing. Very strong indication that you got zero imagination and no ideas.

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Originally posted by Stegasaurus:


I'm sure you're very creative. I'm sure you have amazing literary skills. I might even be tempted to read some of your works. I would just prefer that you not come here and proclaim your kingship of the realm of Firefly. That title rests soley with Joss as far as I am concerned.

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Originally posted by kpo:
http://www.arrowsmithweb.com/index.htm?/starwars.htm

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Originally posted by kpo:
Two congratulations, you've fought bravely and occasionally dirtily, and been very entertaining. I too would like to volunteer to be a script doctor on Serenity 2. Unfortunately I would quite likely remove a lot of your changes...

I think the 5 bad points about Serenity that you nailed to the door with Luther-esque zeal are not the reason Serenity 'failed'. I think some are quite minor plot-holes that many will forgive, or not think much of - and some are largely subjective quibbles that firefly fans can argue over long and hard. That's what she said.

My point is a movie either sweeps you away or it doesn't. Star Wars didn't have the marketing budget (initially) to make it a hit: but it also didn't have the polishing that you claim - see this list of 'Star Wars blunders' longer than your 5 theses: http://www.arrowsmithweb.com/index.htm?/starwars.htm

Nevertheless Star Wars managed to capture the public imagination in a way that Serenity (and to be fair, almost every other movie ever made) failed to do. Star Wars was much more epic than Serenity, for a start.

I think Serenity could've been better polished, better marketed - probably enough to score a big enough hit to earn sequels. But I don't think it could ever have been Star Wars - partly because it deals with a more complex and ambivalent evil empire, and partly because the firefly universe was never Joss's 'great idea for a movie' - it just went that route by last resort, with the planned story outline for the whole second series being condensed and adapted for the purpose.

Heads should roll

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Originally posted by two:
On the other hand, Firefly was completely real, never a fairytale.

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Originally posted by Stegasaurus:

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Originally posted by Storymark:


That assumes infallibility on the part of the original creator, which is blindly fan-ish in and of itself. Take, for instance, that there are many highly lauded professional filmmakers who are Star Wars fans. I have very little doubt that there are at the least, a few who could have written better scripts than the sequels had - given that even Lucas admits he's not much of a writer. Would they have been the stories he wanted to tell - no, but that does not mean they could not have been better.

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But then, they wouldn't be THE story, would they? Again, ownership and telling of a story resides soley with the mind who created it, regardless of the story and how well it's presented.

And again, that's just my opinion.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Storymark:
I don't know anyone, whether they had seen the series or not, who was badmouthing the movie as they left. There was no "it's depressing" bad word of mouth problem. It had decent word-of-mouth.

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The peeps at the theatre I saw it with on the first day left the building in shell-shocked silence, with the occasional "wow" being muttered.
I contrast that with the smiling & laughing & "That was GREAT"s being vocalized after SW in '77.
However, after reading your post, I'll concede that that was probably not as big a factor as I first conjured.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by two:


I notice that “chrisisall” “ImNotHere” and “Stegasaurus” posted nothing in the Blue Sun Room. Not one damn thing. Very strong indication that you got zero imagination and no ideas. I wait for your murderous replies. I fear you completely.

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Now it is your turn to destroy me with superior scorn... [If I was smart, I would not press enter on this response. I'm pushing the button. I hope I survive what is about to happen to me.]

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Originally posted by Storymark:



That is exactly how I and my friends walked out of the theatre - but that doesn't for a split second mean we didn't love it.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Such a narrow view. Who says there is a "The" story? Besides, I never commented on that concept - just pointing out that the creator doesn't have a monopoly of telling a good story.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Take for instance comic books - the "classic" stories of virtually any given character were done by people other than the creators. Does that invalidate them as stories?

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Or flip the concept - should Joss never work on a story that didn't originate with him? He's done it many times in the past, but that was okay, right?

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Originally posted by Storymark:
You may really believe what you said, but as a notion it's highly unrealistic and quite narrow in scope.

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Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
Who says there is "The" story? Um, the creator of said story? I'm not saying folk can't create their own versions of a story, I'm just of the opinion that any deviation to the story changes said story and thus is not the same as the original concept.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Take for instance comic books - the "classic" stories of virtually any given character were done by people other than the creators. Does that invalidate them as stories?

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Not at all. The story hasn't been told yet, or is a continuation, or is an alternate univers storyline.

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Very rarely do you see anyone go back and rewrite the story from the original telling and proclaim their's is better. When it does happen, you usually see the die-hard fans crying foul or just enjoying their next installment. There's all sorts of folk.

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Even if a story told by Joss was a rehash of a story done before, because it's being done in the Whedon-verse, it's a new telling of a new story simply because the characters are there. But I think you're missing my original point.

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The "notion" as you put it is my opinion. Of course it's narrow in scope. It applies to me and my thoughts/feelings/beliefs, and I never for one second thought anyone here shared them in whole.

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Alow me to try to get this back on track though. I have an issue with Two coming on here and stating that sales were bad because of the story and he could have done it better. My reasoning and disdain for his statement is simply because we could never know if he really could.

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Past that, anything he comes up with as "better" is simply a re-write of a story that was just fine as is. Especially according to the majority denizens of this message board.

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We wanted more Firefly, we got Serenity, and we were reasonably happy. For Two to came here and attempt to illicit some form of argument by his/her statements seems like a blatant attempt to rile our population here.

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As I stated before, I am sure that to some degree Two is creative and I might actually enjoy their work. But again, I can look at the rewrites or fresh works individually apart from the orginal work and still derive some enjoyment from it (if it's done well). But I would not support a statement of them having done "better" than the original story teller, especially if I already thoroughly enjoyed the original.

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On another board I visit, there are several nay-sayers about SGU. They are die-hard fans of SG-1 and SG:A, so they have felt slighted by SGU and it's "different-ness". As I have told them: like it or don't. Your opinion is just as valuable as mine and state it if you like. But don't tell me that the writers/creators are wrong in any sense of the telling of the story. You may have built a kinship or fondness of the characters of your beloved shows, but the creators CREATED them. It's their story to tell.

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Originally posted by two:

Serenity is perfect except for those few odd spots where it becomes unreal.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

There are many fans who disliked things about the film. Opinion is opinion, and everyone has a right to share theirs, even Two.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Story, all Steg is saying really is that Two did not create Firefly, nor was he/she hired to write Serenity, so that gives him/her ZERO final say in the matter, beyond his/her own THEORIES in the matter of it's storytelling or lack thereof, which he/she is presenting as stone cold FACT.

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Originally posted by ImNotHere:


an (initially) unarmed 15 year-old girl single-handedly fighting off a zombie army, ravening zombies who can fly spaceships, an entire Earthlike world being "forgotten", a hacker with (apparently) a planet full of giant comms gear to himself, a giant solar system whose planets appear to be fixed like islands in an ocean, spaceships that can cross a solar system in days (powered by an engine made out of old washing machine parts and maintained by a totally untrained young woman who "just has a knack for machines") but, when they cross paths, appear to have relative velocities of about 10 knots, FTL communications (just as impossible as FTL travel according to current physics), typical Hollywood fight sequences where the hero gets beaten to the verge of death before suddenly turning the tables and a universe where everybody dresses and talks like they lived in the 19th century...

...are "realistic". WTF?

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Originally posted by ecgordon:
Am I wrong in assuming that the consensus opinion is that Two, James Cutting and Alex Epstein are wrong and the rest of us who love Serenity just the way it is are right?

Which is it?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by ImNotHere:


an (initially) unarmed 15 year-old girl single-handedly fighting off a zombie army, ravening zombies who can fly spaceships, an entire Earthlike world being "forgotten", a hacker with (apparently) a planet full of giant comms gear to himself, a giant solar system whose planets appear to be fixed like islands in an ocean, spaceships that can cross a solar system in days (powered by an engine made out of old washing machine parts and maintained by a totally untrained young woman who "just has a knack for machines") but, when they cross paths, appear to have relative velocities of about 10 knots, FTL communications (just as impossible as FTL travel according to current physics), typical Hollywood fight sequences where the hero gets beaten to the verge of death before suddenly turning the tables and a universe where everybody dresses and talks like they lived in the 19th century...

...are "realistic". WTF?

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ImNot, none of that bothers me, BUT that line in Out Of Gas about "somethin' must have been livin' in here..."
I mean, doesn't Serenity (or ANY spaceship) go rather hermetic when the doors are shut? How exactly could anything get in, or live for long without food & water? The salesman ain't like to leave ships doors open nor unlocked- that'd invite thievery.
That one little *unrealistic* detail made the series unwatchable, and caused FF's cancellation!




The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Stegasaurus:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Story, all Steg is saying really is that Two did not create Firefly, nor was he/she hired to write Serenity, so that gives him/her ZERO final say in the matter, beyond his/her own THEORIES in the matter of it's storytelling or lack thereof, which he/she is presenting as stone cold FACT.

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^ That.

I knew SOMEONE got what I was trying to say, however ineloquently I was saying it.

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Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
You're wandering off the mark again there, Story.

Allow me to once again put into perspective MY views in regards to the story and story-teller: It's not A story until it's been presented to me.

Does that make more sense to you? Any adjustments to a story have no bearing to me until the story's been told. The story of Speed was as was presented to me at the theater. Serenity's story is as was presented to me at the theater. Any changes pre- and post-production are moot. Those changes aren't the story.

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Originally posted by Storymark:


Debating movies for me is like politics for most folk. Just ask Chris.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
ImNot, none of that bothers me, BUT that line in Out Of Gas about "somethin' must have been livin' in here..."

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Originally posted by Storymark:
To be honest though, I still don't really see what you were getting at, as your arguments are rather contradictory - other than telling Two to shove it, essentially."

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Originally posted by ImNotHere:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
ImNot, none of that bothers me, BUT that line in Out Of Gas about "somethin' must have been livin' in here..."

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Actually, the real reason that Serenity failed was that people were offended by that line about Kaylee's use of battery-powered devices. I can provide eye-witness evidence from when I saw the film in the cinema that at least 2 people walked out after that line.

(Unless they just went to the bathroom).

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Originally posted by Storymark:

Or did we get into it over the narration? I forget....

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

Or did we get into it over the narration? I forget....

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To narrate or not to narrate, that is the question.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by ecgordon:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

Or did we get into it over the narration? I forget....

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To narrate or not to narrate, that is the question.


The laughing Chrisisall

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And the answer is NOT.

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On the other hand, Firefly was completely real, never a fairytale. And also very believable, exactly like StarWars.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I happen to be one of those people who thought it was good for the tension of the movie that Wash *did* die...

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Originally posted by kpo:

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On the other hand, Firefly was completely real, never a fairytale. And also very believable, exactly like StarWars.

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I think I know what you're saying, different programmes/movies have different standards of realism. I wouldn't say Firefly was 'completely' real; just considering something like character dialogue in the firefly universe - though I love it - it's not quite how people speak in real life.

And I wouldn't compare Firefly to The Wire, a show that aims for greater realism in this kind of respect.

All in all I think you have a point or two about a few glitches in Serenity, perhaps worse than in Firefly. And I liked your analogy about chauffering Joss Whedon's child 'Serenity'. I personally think Joss Whedon's other child 'Firefly', whose life was tragically cut short, was the real beauty of the family (regardless of minor fashion faux-paux on the parts of either, hats etc.). I love Serenity, who is beautiful in her own right, but part of my love for her is a carry-over of my love of her sister Firefly, whom she reminds me of.

Of course it's subjective. Some people will think Serenity is the real beauty, or just a wonderful *maturation* of little Firefly for the big screen.

I might check out this 190 page script - but I have my doubts that it is impeccably better, and I happen to be one of those people who thought it was good for the tension of the movie that Wash *did* die...

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1) Jayne walking on his leg after being speared by Reavers. Myriam, who spent a week in the hospital after breaking a bone there, said she couldn't believe it.

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2) The Operative's pinch of death on Doctor Mathias' love-handle. That pinch doesn't exist because nobody's body works like that, unless they are aliens.

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3) Mal's quick-draw on the Operative: Afterward, why did Mal turn his back on the Operative? Why not kill the Op immediately?

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4) Jayne's drunken plan to put River on the shuttle. Who would believe that the shuttle will be able to speed away faster than Serenity can follow?

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5) Once the Alliance had their guns on River, the story ended 30 seconds later. It can't end now! That's too rushed! It needed to be stretched out another minute because this is the best part of the movie.

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Originally posted by two:

As always, children and nerds are easier to please than adults who expect more from movies.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by ecgordon:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

Or did we get into it over the narration? I forget....

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To narrate or not to narrate, that is the question.


The laughing Chrisisall

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And the answer is NOT.

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The movie was *DESIGNED* around a narration, in fact over an hours worth was recorded- the fact that they wrote what they ended up using in one quick shot near the end of principle photography should not make peeps dismiss the narration altogether. Ford conspired with Scott to eliminate it at the last minute, thinkng to make it more "artsy," a big mistake IMO, and in the opinion of the producers. I *usually* never side with the suits, but in this ONE instance, it was a good call.
Yeah, the narration could have been better, but what got slapped on was sufficient to evoke the mood originally intended.
Wanna fight?



The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by kpo:
I happen to be one of those people who thought it was good for the tension of the movie that Wash *did* die...
l

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Originally posted by two:


As always, children and nerds are easier to please than adults who expect more from movies. That's the real reason why more movie tickets are sold to the young than the old.

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Originally posted by two:
As always, children and nerds are easier to please than adults who expect more from movies. That's the real reason why more movie tickets are sold to the young than the old.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

Well, most fans of the film

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and EVERYONE who worked on it

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prefer it gone. Sorry.

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It may have been designed for it (though I question that)

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but that doesn't mean it was a good idea or worked. That's why there is a post-production process - to refine the film, and sometimes ditch things they planned on that didn't work the way they wanted.

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Originally posted by Storymark:


Absolutely agree. Once that happened - I was convinced they were ALL going to die. It made the ending one of the most intense viewing experiences I've ever had.

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Originally posted by ecgordon:
most Hollywood movies aren't mature enough to appeal to discerning adults, but Serenity was. I would much rather have Serenity just the way it is rather than Joss compromising to appeal to nerdy ticket buyers.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by two:

As always, children and nerds are easier to please than adults who expect more from movies.

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Don't be such a prig.



The laughing Chrisisall

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