Are there enough 'Science Fiction' style motifs within FIREFLY? by TheSomnambulist

Hey Navyseils. Hi.

Yeah I pretty much pointed out the spaceships and y'know suggested that is maybe enough, but my friend interjected with the fact that we have spaceships now! So what's the big deal! I kinda didn't have a comeback after that. Merely mentioned that in the trainjob there is... well... a hovering train, and one or two other sci-fi-ish elements... Electronic paper, pool table with holographic balls and so forth. But I did feel my footing was weak somewhat.. It was interesting because this had never occured to me before...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 2, 2010 4:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Don't the really great ones make their own path ?

Maybe Joss could have started with showing more Alliance space vessels, like the Dortmunder.

Before Star Wars, pretty much everything we saw w/ regards to space traveling cultures is that the future was clean, shiny, new and well organized. As we saw in the opening scene of A New Hope, big, powerful ships, hurtling through space, lasers blasting.....

Quickly to be contrasted by the dirty, dusty and relatively low tech of Tatooine. Luke's speeder ? A beat up, dust covered and dented junkard.

Plus, no aliens or 'light saber' equivalent gizmos in Firefly, not anything that jumped right out and WOWED the audience.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 2, 2010 8:03 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Maybe Joss could have started with showing more Alliance space vessels, like the Dortmunder. ...in Firefly, not anything that jumped right out and WOWED the audience.

Most TV audiences want to be wowed out of their bored little minds. (That doesn't apply to you because you are elite and your brain is huge.) That's why crime shows have gunfire, explosions, or ghastly corpses rotting on the coroner's examining table, all in the first five minutes. A scifi show needs spaceships upfront or the audience switches channels to CSI.

The Reavers' ship screams SCIENCE FICTION with its big claw and lightening bolts. The engines are from a star cruiser! Hot Plasma jetting out! But that ship don't show until the pilot episode is more than half over. Even if the entire episode had to be rewritten, the Reavers should have been early and upfront in the pilot so that people like me would be saying, "I have never seen such a exciting show." And when the Reavers return and attack at the end of the pilot episode.... WOW!! My brain exploded.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 2, 2010 8:52 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

I introduced someone the FF Episode 1 last night.

Best description is A Comedic Frenemies Space Western Drama Set 500 Years In The Future After The 2nd Chinese-American Civil War Battle Of Serenity Valley With Naked Chicks And Flesh Eating Zombies But No Aliens.

Remember to first adjust your home theatre for TV, or you'll be forced to watch subtitles, or lose all comprehension of dialog.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 2, 2010 9:11 AM

DEWRASTLER

The show actually pokes fun at itself with this issue.

Wash: Psychic? Sounds like something out of science fiction.
Zoë: We live on a spaceship, dear.
Wash: So?

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 2, 2010 9:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
The show actually pokes fun at itself with this issue.

Wash: Psychic? Sounds like something out of science fiction.
Zoë: We live on a spaceship, dear.
Wash: So?

One of the best damn lines of the show, to be sure.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 2, 2010 11:47 AM

LWAVES

There is definitely as many scifi motifs as western motifs. I always thought that it struck a nice balance between the two.
If some folks don't think there's enough then maybe PN actually sorta hit on the right description - in that it's a space western more than a scifi western. Depends on your definitions of the words.

I do have to disagree heavily that we currently have spaceships. Oh no, no.
We have rockets and vehicles that travel through space in a basic point in the right direction and fire type way. But we don't really have the ability to go where we want, when we want. Although technically I suppose the description of spaceship does fit, but to me there is a vast difference between our current offering and what I'd class as a true spaceship.

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 2, 2010 6:26 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

A new paradigm where the newer generations are entrenched in the concept, to think it is commonplace to travel in spaceships, is an interesting development. I hadn't thought it would occur in my lifetime. I suspect there are still many in Arab states, China, African Jungle who do not consider this to be commonplace.

Lazer guns shooting down space skiffs? OK, not shown until after the series is cancelled.

Cortex networking instantaeously across the entire verse (5 Light-hours distance)? OK, poor understanding of the Speed of Light.

Hoping that a derelict carrier still has pressure while hovering in your personal spacesuit? OK, I guess that's not scifi.

500 years in the future? I guess that could be just precog instead of scifi.

Joss said he considered the psychic abilities of River to be too far - but that isn't seen if your girl just started the show.

Terraforming planets? I didn't think this was an everyday occurance just yet.

I think that one big problem you are dealing with is that the show is soooo old, and revolutionary to the point that EVERYBODY else has now copied almost all of the innovative stuff from the show, which was so cutting edge it won the Emmy for Special Effects, but now seems commonplace because everybody copies it ever since. At the time of creation, those were new concepts and visuals not seen in a TV show. Now those who have seen the copycats FIRST, cannot comprehend the freshness of the original source of these highly successful ideas, and so they think "blah, commonplace, everybody does this same stuff, it's nothing new" and that is a huge obstacle of perception to overcome.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 2, 2010 8:04 PM

Well, for me, strictly on the Pilot Episode, there is the planets that were living on the rim and those core planets. Now that may have tipped me off. Why was the war being fought? Because some didn't want to live under the rule of the core planets. Imagine the fate of all planets being controlled by a few modern-looking planets.

So, planets is a hint that it's sci-fi. People, like ourselves living on other planets. Much like we have today (NOT!).

That 500 years in the future thing would be another hint. I immediately think of Star Wars and Blade Runner (in regards to future world as opposed to today world, usually that means sci-fi to me). Perhaps what threw your friend for a loop was the horses riding up to Serenity. I could see, for the uninitiated, where that would confuse a person. The floating spacestation with the military personnel in it, may have been another clue.

The whole "fuel the ship" thing when they landed on Persphone - sci-fi. "Change course, go for hard-burn. We're running," sounds sci-fyee to me. As others have mentioned, the newsflash that was on a "piece" of paper with video on it that came over the cortex. That's something you don't see everyday. The "crybaby" although a subtle suggestion by Joss & Co. (which I liked very much BTW, too many times the audience is not allowed to think for themselves in American television. He never tells us that the "crybaby" is a decoy. We're allowed to figure it out on our own through visuals and some dialogue); definitely suggests sci-fi.

People definitely became comfortable with light-speed, Warp drive and transporter rooms and they identify those things with the neat and tidy world of sci-fi. Firefly/Serenity is a revisionists view of that world and all the pretty-pretty lights and diodes are out on the backburner. It fits our world more readily, this reimagining, than that carries us to a galaxy far, far away. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Star Wars geek (first 3 episodes thank you very much), but sci-fi is about new visions and possibilities, however strange and unusual.

I could see another reason why Firefly was ahead of it's time back in 2002. Folk were just not ready to accept this new concept of what life could possibly look like in 500 years. They much prefer what's comfortable and familiar than allow themselves to think that we may well regress to a time where life was much more simpler- the old west - than what we have now.
Sci-fi, for many folk, is gleaming cities in the sky with shiny spaceships and futuristic looking gadgets. But even in Star Wars you could find some familiar territory linking us to the past.

The light saber, a jedi's weapon of choice, is a samurai or knight's sword. Queen Amidala, Lord Vader, Old Republic, Jedi Knights these all suggest a kind of honoring of the past with a nod toward the future. It is as much a part of sci-fi as robots and dilithium crystals. Now, we include horses and six-shooters.

SGG

Tawabawho?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 2, 2010 11:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Quote:
That's why crime shows have gunfire, explosions, or ghastly corpses rotting on the coroner's examining table, all in the first five minutes. A scifi show needs spaceships upfront or the audience switches channels to CSI.

But the Firefly the pilot starts with a big battle scene complete with derring do, futuristic aeroplanes crashing... then cuts to a spacewalk.

Even the Train Job has Serenity's Grand Entrance ("We will blow a new crater in your little moon") a few minutes in.

Perhaps they should have done a Gerry Anderson style "in this episode" fast-cut preview - as Batlestar Galactica showed, this is great for making a slow-paced episode look action packed.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 3, 2010 3:12 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Don't need the Gerry Anderson style "in this episode" fast-cut preview, if the story is rearranged. The Train Job could start with big bad Niska torturing an employee who didn't follow orders. Exciting! Can't change TV channel! Then Mal & Zoe arrive at Niska's spacestation office to get orders. It is evident that Niska is not a criminal gang lord that should be double crossed. Show goes to a commercial then a flashback from the Unification War with Zoe & Mal as prisoners being beat-down by Alliance soldiers. On Niska's Train Job, Jayne does his high-wire act to steal drugs, thoughtfully bringing Mal hand-grenades enough to kill all the Alliance soldiers unexpectedly on the train and make a leisurely escape up the wire to Serenity. Mean old Mal really, really wants to payback the Alliance. That wasn't the original plan so Zoe overrules Mal -- no mass killing -- instead, they take a seat and pretend to be husband and wife. At the train station, fast talking Inara frees Zoe & Mal from the suspicious Sheriff. They go to the bar with the belly-dancer, where Inara has a pink colored drink and reminds Mal that people will die without the drugs that Mal stole. Mal & Zoe have their annual Unification-Day brawl. Serenity's Grand Entrance saves them from being shoved over a cliff by an angry, drunken mob -- the Sheriff, who watched the fight, now knows he has been mislead and follows Serenity to rendezvous with Niska's henchmen. And you know how the story ends -- Mal decides at the last moment to double cross Niska, returns drugs to Sheriff, and boots Niska's henchman into turbine blades that grind to hamburger meat -- we laugh. Mal has been itching to kill all day. END

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 3, 2010 5:21 AM

ZEEK

Um...last I checked we don't have ships with artificial gravity in space. Done and done.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 3, 2010 10:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Um...last I checked we don't have ships with artificial gravity in space. Done and done.

Ships in SF shows have artificial gravity because the 234th law of quantum accoutancy permits suspension of the laws of physics in cases where the alternative is just too darned expensive to shoot.

However, more to the point, we don't have ships which only take a few days to fly across even our puny little solar system - let alone a big darned multiple-star system like the Verse.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 3, 2010 10:40 AM

Hardly a riveting device to lure in viewers though:

*In 40's style voice over:*

"Firefly it has Spaceships with artificial gravity! People of tomorrow dressed as people of yesterday! and a hot crazy girl with a special relationship with her brother!"

All this and more on Firefly...!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 3, 2010 10:49 AM

Lwaves wrote:

Quote:
I do have to disagree heavily that we currently have spaceships. Oh no, no.
We have rockets and vehicles that travel through space in a basic point in the right direction and fire type way. But we don't really have the ability to go where we want, when we want. Although technically I suppose the description of spaceship does fit, but to me there is a vast difference between our current offering and what I'd class as a true spaceship.

Indeed but it's semantics. We are in space and float about on space type ships so her point still stands, and lets face it the worlds we explore on Firefly still feel pretty familiar. So that aspect of Firefly hardly pushes the boundaries... (not that it needs to)
But ultimtaley to us it doesn't really matter because it's a fresh interpretation of the future and a deliberate one from Joss and Co. And maybe it was more me at fault with how I pitched to her. Because in my mind I regard Firefly as a Sci- fi show... But maybe I was wrong to do that.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 3, 2010 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:

Quote:
Well, for me, strictly on the Pilot Episode, there is the planets that were living on the rim and those core planets. Now that may have tipped me off. Why was the war being fought? Because some didn't want to live under the rule of the core planets. Imagine the fate of all planets being controlled by a few modern-looking planets.

So, planets is a hint that it's sci-fi. People, like ourselves living on other planets. Much like we have today (NOT!).

But the small amount of exploration we have done in space has softened the effect to a certian extent of how sci-fi is presented to us. These things are little more common place now. Shouldn't sci-fi be going that little bit further everytime? Isn't that what sci fi is? At some point our present catches up with sci-fi concepts of yesteryear.

Quote:
That 500 years in the future thing would be another hint. I immediately think of Star Wars and Blade Runner (in regards to future world as opposed to today world, usually that means sci-fi to me). Perhaps what threw your friend for a loop was the horses riding up to Serenity. I could see, for the uninitiated, where that would confuse a person. The floating spacestation with the military personnel in it, may have been another clue.

I'll have to see if I can get her to elaborate a little, next time I see her. I don't think she was thrown by things that were familiar within a sci- fi setting, I think she was undewhelmed by the idea that sci-fi hadn't moved on much from that of which we already regard as 'familiar' sci fi.

Quote:
The whole "fuel the ship" thing when they landed on Persphone - sci-fi. "Change course, go for hard-burn. We're running," sounds sci-fyee to me. As others have mentioned, the newsflash that was on a "piece" of paper with video on it that came over the cortex. That's something you don't see everyday. The "crybaby" although a subtle suggestion by Joss & Co. (which I liked very much BTW, too many times the audience is not allowed to think for themselves in American television. He never tells us that the "crybaby" is a decoy. We're allowed to figure it out on our own through visuals and some dialogue); definitely suggests sci-fi.

Yeah I liked the whole crybaby concept. Thought that really clever. Much like the whole nav sat thing in the movie. "Sir we found seven of them!" Awesome.

Quote:
People definitely became comfortable with light-speed, Warp drive and transporter rooms and they identify those things with the neat and tidy world of sci-fi.

Yes that's it I reckon too. I think she'd have liked something we're not used to in terms of sci-fi.

Quote:
I could see another reason why Firefly was ahead of it's time back in 2002. Folk were just not ready to accept this new concept of what life could possibly look like in 500 years. They much prefer what's comfortable and familiar than allow themselves to think that we may well regress to a time where life was much more simpler- the old west - than what we have now.
Sci-fi, for many folk, is gleaming cities in the sky with shiny spaceships and futuristic looking gadgets. But even in Star Wars you could find some familiar territory linking us to the past.

The light saber, a jedi's weapon of choice, is a samurai or knight's sword. Queen Amidala, Lord Vader, Old Republic, Jedi Knights these all suggest a kind of honoring of the past with a nod toward the future. It is as much a part of sci-fi as robots and dilithium crystals. Now, we include horses and six-shooters.

Yes. Valid points there Shiny. Maybe sci-fi is hinged upon an accepted construct of what sci-fi has been made to look like by TV, rather than legitimate notions by writers, dreamers, and scienctific conceptualisation...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 3, 2010 12:24 PM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Hardly a riveting device to lure in viewers though:

*In 40's style voice over:*

"Firefly it has Spaceships with artificial gravity! People of tomorrow dressed as people of yesterday! and a hot crazy girl with a special relationship with her brother!"

All this and more on Firefly...!

I never said it was marketable. It's most definitely scifi though.

Part of the reason we got canceled I'm pretty sure.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 3, 2010 2:14 PM

Hey there Sleepy,

Good point.

Quote:
But the small amount of exploration we have done in space has softened the effect to a certian extent of how sci-fi is presented to us. These things are little more common place now. Shouldn't sci-fi be going that little bit further everytime? Isn't that what sci fi is? At some point our present catches up with sci-fi concepts of yesteryear.

I think that sci-fi asks the "what if" question in regards to our relationship to the universe, and ultimately our world. I often think of Star Trek whenever that concept arises in conversation. But I also think of movies like 2001, Blade Runner, etc. Even a movie like Galaxy Quest gives us a different perspective as to what sci-fi is(of course, you have to wait until you stop laughing to consider the possibilities).

Our relationships, responsibilities and our sentiments about who we are and where do we fit in the grand scheme of things is a part of sci-fi. Looking at Firefly on it's surface it appears to be a Western, and the viewer would be right. No question. But upon closer examination we find that here are 9 people floating in a tin can asking "what if?"

Are they not exploring, to some degree, the vast nothingness of space searching for that answer? Where do we fit, etc? Have your friend watch Bushwhacked and see if she still feels the same way. I agree that Firefly is NOT your typical sci-fi program. That's what makes it special.

SGG

Tawabawho?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 4, 2010 8:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by beatupplenty:
Then in the 1960's and 70's the definition changed to "the good old stuff"-"adventure stories set in space".

Actually, in novels, Space Opera has got a bit trendy now (like a derelict area of town which has suddenly been colonized by wine bars and trendy bistros

).

One of the landmark "New Space Opera" novels is Consider Phlebas by Iain M Banks, which features:

- A morally ambiguous main protagonist who is fighting a war against a (in his opinion) oppressive force (although arguably he's actually working for the bad guys - although you're not obliged to cheer for the Culture).
- A run-down ship crewed by a bunch of minimally competent petty criminals.
- Quite a lot of dry wit
- A plot which is ultimately more about the protagonist's character than big dumb objects blowing up (although some big dumb objects get seriously blown up).

Oh, and there's a train in it, too. Definitely recommended to Browncoats.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 4, 2010 11:46 AM

Hey Beatupplenty... I suppose I'm more curious about the motifs that suggest sci-fi rather than the concept of the show as a whole. I think the problem is entirely my own doing because I described Firefly to her as a sci-fi show, however little did I know that it would be pointed out to me that the elements that define that description [sci-fi show] are somewhat sparse....

You see Apollo 13 is a solid adventure story set in space but is it science fiction? It's based on actual events so it's just regular fiction. Therefore can a show merely set in space be defined as science fiction when space habitation is now science fact... ?

Would you like to see some cartoons? http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 5, 2010 8:48 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
That 500 years in the future thing would be another hint. I immediately think of Star Wars ...

SGG

Tawabawho?

Perhaps you are confused.
A long long time ago in a galaxy far far away...

Not sometime in the future.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 5, 2010 8:54 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

You see Apollo 13 is a solid adventure story set in space but is it science fiction? It's based on actual events so it's just regular fiction.

Apollo 13 is fiction???
Which part?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 5, 2010 10:29 PM

The non fiction part...

Would you like to see some cartoons? http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 6, 2010 5:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Apollo 13 is fiction???
Which part?

All the bits the screenwriters made up to fill the gaps in the records and eyewitness accounts of the real events. Or where they did have records and eyewitness accounts of the real events, but they were boring.

If it makes a good movie, its fiction (I hate the idea of shows billed as "drama/documentaries": if its drama, its been dramatized its not a documentary!)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 6, 2010 10:21 PM

You are on a roll. Well, let's see:

Star Wars - set a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away. Which speaks of another time and place. Another time and place where space ships travel at light speed in hyperspace.

Sci-fi kinda stuff, no?

Although SW is set in the past (long time ago) it is another galaxy (far away), so it could very well be in the future, well into the future, as far as us humans are concerned here on earth. This is never depicted in any of the trilogies, it's just something that came to mind (my warped mind).

I think of SW because Firefly is set in another galaxy far away, has desert-like planets out in the rim (much like Tatooine) and is pretty much a revisionist view of space travel, civilization and culture as depicted in the movies.

What SW did was combine the western (Han Solo, as gunslinger) and sword & sorcery genres (Obi Wan, as wise old wizard; Darth Vader, as the black knight). SW was also a saturday matinee movie cliffhanger. Joss took the western concept and spun it on it's ear.

He gave us a world that seemed familiar, much like SW, but turned it slightly so that we would identify more closely to the characters (that could be me up in that tin can called Serenity.
They are set in different times but have much to offer in common than not. Gleaming cities in the core, dusty rough & tumble out in the rim, with no shortage of interesting charcters.

Besides we're talking about sci-fi here. Oh the possibilities.

SGG

Tawabawho?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 6, 2010 11:16 PM

Hey Shiny...

Just wondering do you see Sci-fi as needing to be set in the future? Only I've always had this idea of writing a sci-fi story set in the 17th century where aliens invade the planet. Do you think this still sci-fi ?

Would you like to see some cartoons? http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 6, 2010 11:20 PM

Originally posted by ImNotHere:

Quote:
If it makes a good movie, its fiction (I hate the idea of shows billed as "drama/documentaries": if its drama, its been dramatized its not a documentary!)

Yes I agree. There's a trend here on british TV to do those awful dramas with supposed documented fact.

Would you like to see some cartoons? http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, May 7, 2010 8:04 AM