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Originally posted by kef:
1) While they were in custody, River went into her "They took Christmas away . . . nothing left but coal." rant.

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2) If Jayne HAD changed his mind in the diagnostic room, then I think it robs a bit of the powerfulness from the final scene between him and Mal.

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Originally posted by Delvo:
When they left the diagnostic room, Simon didn't say a word about the route being changed, only the timing. And Jayne later commented that he wanted to go out the front because they already knew that way, and could get lost going out the back. (They only ended up going out the back way because of River running off.)

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This means Jayne was taking them out the front, as planned. He was just doing it earlier than planned.

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About River's ramblings. they're like prophecies; you can make sense of them later on, maybe... or you can never figure it out... or there will come a time when they make sense, but not yet... or there are bound to be several different ways to interpret any one of them that are equally valid yet equally imaginative and evidentially baseless. Her babble, therefor, along with any particular interpretatin of it, is not evidence of outside things; rather, outside things are necessary to shed light on it. It's sort of like the principle in science that no idea, no matter how good it seemed, trumps direct observation; ideas have to be fitted to the observations. We have to interpret her lines in light of other events, not say that other events were one thing or another because her lines supposedly say so.

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And I still love the last scene in my version, because Mal must know (even though he didn't say it) that Jayne unbetrayed them and that's why he was running with them, which would explain why he let Jayne live... and because, rather than dulling Jayne's behavior in that final scene, this just means that the final scene just casts his earlier behavior in a new light (some of which reflects back).

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Originally posted by kef:
The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned

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Originally posted by QueenTiye:
Um...o.k. but I think it's just as easy to acknowledge the Christmas thing as meaning what we already think it means - Jayne doesn't get the reward. The fact that "they took away Christmas" is a very interesting statement... I personally (in light of believing that Jayne "unbetrayed" Simon & River) think that that statement refers not to them NOT giving Jayne the reward, but them making it no fun to betray the Tams in the first place. The fun is what got taken away - the coal in place of toys is symbolic of that. Jayne couldn't have enjoyed that reward no matter what, and River called him on it (and it freaked him out, because you don't have to be so insightful to know truth when it's spoken to you).

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... this interpretation has the benefit of explaining Jayne crossing his heart and all of that swearing that he did no wrong... he was trying to forget that the first sin wasn't obliterated by his subsequent change of heart...

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Originally posted by Corrielle:
Just a note: That above paragraph made a lot more sense in my head. Shoot holes in it all you like... I won't mind.

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Originally posted by Shiney:

My impression was that he wanted to minimize the chance of running into Mal and Zoe. Forcing Simon & River to leave earlier than planned would (in his mind) give Jayne time to sell S & R out to the Feds, collect his reward, and come up with some story/excuse before meeting back up with the others.

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Originally posted by Evans:
Also, here's a word. The unword "unbetray" is making me climb the wall. Found this, never knew it before: "tergiversate," to change one's mind or allegiance. Since this is a bulletin board we won't have to worry about pronouncing it, thank the gods. Roget lists nouns as tergiversation; reversal; about-face, volte-face (626.1).

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1. He acknowledges that Simon came up with a good plan

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2. Jaynestown - confronted with people practically worshipping him, he tried to dissuade them

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3. Confronted with a kid losing his life for his sake, he is shaken a bit...

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4. Again he shows a little bit of awe over Simon's doctoring skill.

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5. When he dumped one partner to join Mal, he didn't kill the guy, he shot him in the leg.

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Originally posted by Corrielle:
One thought on Jayne wanting to get them out early. If he IS going to turn them in, and I think he is, he's going to need to avoid having the captain come looking for them. So, he wants to have the Tams all nice and captured before everyone was supposed to rendesvous.

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Originally posted by esme:
The tension all this created was wonderful, I really thought that Jayne was a goner.

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Sensou
Who will never, ever, ever forgive Jayne!

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Originally posted by Thegn:
Well, many of you seem to be applying your own assumptions to Jayne. In the end though, the character isn't defined by what you think the character is, but rather by that characters actions. And the question still remains, why Jayne chose the moment of discovering the extent of River's injuries to suddenly decide that it was time to leave. The only way your assumptions work is if you dismiss this fact. As a scientist, in my line of work one would be remiss to haphazardly dismiss even the smallest detail. I have also found that a similar line of thinking is very helpful in analysis of good literature. So I guess the question must come down to how much faith you have in the writers to describe the actions of the characters. Some past episodes, I believe, suggest that one should not underestimate them.

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Originally posted by esme:
I think Jayne made contact with the alliance after River stabbed him (for fashion? "you'd look better in red" I think it was?)

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Originally posted by Thegn:
Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the only way to assume that Jayne didn't change the plan is to dismiss the fact that he did insist upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. You can try to justify Jayne's position or play games with what we may not know all you want, but in the end you're only working on your speculation or interpretation. There are an infinite possibly of things one can pretend might have transpired out of view of the audience, but the fact is that the writers did not choose those events to show us and are therefore immaterial. What the writers did choose to show us was Jayne changing his mind after discovering what the Alliance had done to River. Of all the ways the writers might have fashioned that scene, they chose to write it that way. That is not speculation or assumption. It is fact. Jayne's character is not defined by what the audiences pretends might have happened while they weren't watching. Jayne's character is defined by what did happen while we were watching. And the only way to arrive at the conclusion that Jayne never changed his plan is to dismiss the fact that Jayne insisted upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.

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Originally posted by esme:
Dear Kef...I think you're dead on.

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Originally posted by Thegn:
This is just your speculation. You are speculating on Jayne’s state of mind to force the story to adhere to your perception of Jayne’s character. No where in the episode did Jayne ever say that he needed to give himself 20 minutes for anything. So that is just an assumption you are applying. It is not in the story. It is not something the writers conveyed. That’s something you made up.

Once again, in order to assume that Jayne didn't change his plan one MUST dismiss the FACT that Jayne chose to leave only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. That is a fact.

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Originally posted by Thegn:
Finally, someone is beginning to understand. You're halfway there. You just need to stop embellishing it so much. That is not my assumption. I'm not assuming anything. On one case, you have to come up with an unwritten explanation to a 20 minute discrepancy and in the other case you don't. One conclusion conserves the storyline the other one doesn't. Which one the writers meant, I don't know. All I am telling you is that in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events, and in the other case you don't have to, and as a result of that dismissal you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there.

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Originally posted by Thegn:
It’s NOT explained by the facts of the story. It must be assumed by the audience.

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Originally posted by Thegn:
Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the only way to assume that Jayne didn't change the plan is to dismiss the fact that he did insist upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.

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Originally posted by esme:

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Sensou
Who will never, ever, ever forgive Jayne!

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Be careful...Joss LOVES to redeem a bad boy and reveal his heart of gold. I also think that Jayne formed a new bond with Simon as they killed together.

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Originally posted by Thegn:

The sequence of events is

A. Simon reports the extent of River's injuries.

Then

B. Jayne insists on leaving.

Now the possible conclusions:

1. Jayne changed his mind about turning Simon and River in. A following B makes sense, if it suggests Jayne is acting on pitty for River or disdain for the Alliance.

2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.

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I don't think Simon killed his guard, just rendered him unconscious. When they got to the room, Mr. Blue Hands #1 reports that one guard is dead, and Mr. Blue Hands #2 says the other one is still alive...then kills him with the sonic brain melter device.

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Originally posted by Thegn:
I respect people who aren't afraid to make their argument. Perhaps I've failed to structure my arguments correctly. If so, I apologies. I think you might be misinterpreting them however. In one conclusion, only the facts of the story are needed to explain the events. In your conclusion, speculation is needed to explain them. I don't know which one is true as far as the writers are concerned, I just know which one conserves the sequence of events. And actually, in spite of all this, I think I've made up my mind about which conclusion I actually do want to go with. I think I'm going to with conclusion #2. Despite the discrepancy it seems to work.

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Originally posted by Shiny:

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Originally posted by Thegn:

The sequence of events is

A. Simon reports the extent of River's injuries.

Then

B. Jayne insists on leaving.

Now the possible conclusions:

1. Jayne changed his mind about turning Simon and River in. A following B makes sense, if it suggests Jayne is acting on pitty for River or disdain for the Alliance.

2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.

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Actually, Jayne provides his own explanation: Mal changed the plans. The fact that the viewers know that Mal did NOT change the plans illustrates that Jayne is following his own agenda. Now knowing that Jayne is lying, which is simpler:

1. Jayne hurries S&R out in order to more easily hand S&R over to the Feds, or
2. Jayne hurries S&R due to a last-minute, out-of-character change of heart after already making plans to betray S&R to the Feds.

In *either* case you have to make an assuption about Jayne's intentions. When you suggest A causes B, you assume that B would not have happened without A. But the show does not provide us with a causal link, you are just inferring the cause-and-effect relationship.

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Originally posted by esme:
Once again, damn my lack of tivo or vhs.
Too bad, though, cause I thought Simon showed a new hard-core (Jayn-ish?) side to his personality by killing someone who was in his way.
Funny how the human deaths on FF affect me-
Not so on BTVS or Angel (the only three shows I watch)

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Originally posted by Thegn:

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Originally posted by kef:
And what's wrong with that? That's how good writers write. They don't clutter up the story by purposely explaining every single thing. They figure that we're intellegent enough to make obvious assumptions.

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If it's so obvious then I guess I must be the only person in this threat to miss this ambiguity. And I do dreadfully apologies for my complete stupidity.

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Originally posted by kef:
The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned, You have me on that one!

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