What is River "guilty" of? by everyworldspinnin

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What is River "guilty" of?

POSTED BY: EVERYWORLDSPINNIN
UPDATED: Friday, July 16, 2004 16:22
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Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:20 PM

In OiS, when reading Book's mind, he says, "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?" What was River guilty of? She looked a bit shocked at this statement as well.

"I need that in Captain Dummy talk..."

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:34 PM

RAWDEAL

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:40 PM

PERSON

I think he was talking about Jayne.. Or thinking...
Because it came right after "Money was too good".

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 7:18 PM

TIGER

I think Book was talking to some poor, unknown (to us) victim from his past.

In OIS, River seems to be reading the most basic, important ideas from the crew's psyches. Simon longs for his old life, Jayne is preoccupied with his betrayal on Ariel, Inara may be speaking of her wish that Mal just tell her how he feels, and Mal reveals his hollow, hopeless core, brought on by the lost war. Book's thought just gives us a peek at the mystery of his past.

As to River, she's simply guilty of escaping. The government/blue sun turned her into something important; what that is we don't know yet.

---------------------------------------------
...The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heart-breaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:16 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Rawdeal has said it all, but this thread is just wrong-headed. From the shooting script (my bold):

She turns, looks at Book, who is in her face, fiercely angry.

BOOK
I don't give half a hump if you're
innocent or not! So where does that
put you?

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:21 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Book's mission is get River onto a witness programme to testify against Blue Sun. This will put her in danger, but that is a risk worth taking for the political benefit it brings.
Book does have moral qualms about this, which is why River can pick up his suppression of the emotion.

Only Purplebelly believes any of this

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:28 PM

GRIMLAKIN

And here I was I just took it as a basic statement. The preacher in truth cares not of someones innocence in a matter. He at his core is a cold calculating man trying to become someone better than he was.

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:27 PM

HAWK

I think Book's comment is a favourite phrase from days spent as an Alliance authority (hence the whole life-saving ID card deal). An interrogator perhaps?

Maybe he spent his time going after something in particular, which would explain his ruthlessness, his disregard for people's innocence. Maybe he framed people who could help him acheive a goal...

I think the latter theory is reaching a bit though. The former seems the more likely to me, though the latter is an interesting line of thought.

On the OiS monologues, I like the theory of the core psyche thing. Most seem to think some of them are predictions of future phrases, and I dislike the idea of the future being set in my speculative fiction.

I like the the idea that the majority of the crew have deep statements of their pasts in their monologue wheras Good Ol' Jayne is taken up with something very recent, which might be a subtle blast at his shallowness of character.

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 11:26 PM

OUTSIDER

Quote:
... Inara may be speaking of her wish that Mal just tell her how he feels...

I have to admit, that's not quite how I interpreted Inara's comment/thought. I assumed she was referring to (as many of us believe) being diagnosed with some terminal illness, or it could be she was referring to something like being informed of the death of someone she loved.

Just a thought.

---
"Today we were kidnapped by hill folk, never to be seen again. It was the best day ever."

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 11:53 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
Inara may be speaking of her wish that Mal just tell her how he feels

But Inara is an experienced courtesan, not a High School Class President; that figure of fun and fantasy was missing from Whedon's education

My view is that River's reading of Inara presents Inara's suppression of her wish to know River's secret's. Inara wants to know because, although she is part of a True Alliance cell, unlike Book she is not aware at this time of Blue Sun's direction of the research programme.

Only Purplebelly believes any of this

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Friday, July 16, 2004 2:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I just wanted to mention Zoe and Wash. Where as everyone else is all guilty, those two are quite happy with each other. No words, just emotion. I know folks will just look at it as another element of human emotion that River is looking to explore. With the others we have regret, sorrow, remorse...but with the 2 love birds goin at it.... that's a feeling River isn't quite ready for...yet.

As for Book? In OoG, when River catches Book reading his bible, and says ' don't be afraid...that's what it says.... but you are', I think that and the scene from OiS shows that Book has some real faith issues, as in the lack of having any. He might be a preacher now, but I think it may be a path he didn't take untill very recently.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, July 16, 2004 2:28 AM

PURPLEBELLY

My take on River's reading of Zoe is that Zoe's survivor guilt is still repressing some of the full experience of passion.
I suppose it could just be jealousy, on my part

I don't have a psychology major, so I'm on very shaky ground; is one reason why I asked about re-integration of combat veterans recently.

Only Purplebelly believes any of this

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Friday, July 16, 2004 3:41 AM

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER

That's the thing about this show... there are so many ways to read these kinds of things.
Which is one of the things I love about this show!

"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon
"Where else are you going to get a love story that begins:
Boy meets girl. Girl kicks boy's ass." NYPinTA @WatchFarscape.com

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Friday, July 16, 2004 3:52 AM

EVERYWORLDSPINNIN

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Rawdeal has said it all, but this thread is just wrong-headed. From the shooting script (my bold):

She turns, looks at Book, who is in her face, fiercely angry.

BOOK
I don't give half a hump if you're
innocent or not! So where does that
put you?

I gotta stop posting things so late at night. My memory is not so good.

I have fixed the original post.

"I need that in Captain Dummy talk..."

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Friday, July 16, 2004 5:07 AM

CARDIE

I always thought that statement reflected Book's past as some sort of law officer whose job was to bring in accused criminals, with little regard to what they had or hadn't done. It reminded me of the famous exchange from the movie of The Fugitive, right before Kimble jumps into the river:

Kimble: I'm innocent!!!

Gerard: I don't care.

Cardie

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Friday, July 16, 2004 5:14 AM

EVERYWORLDSPINNIN

I agree. But it almost seemed like it was directed at her, or her circumstance.
I like the thought of Book being a "US Marshall" style character. But why would he have beaten the lawman in Serenity, and why wouldn't River blow his cover (or just take him out) if she knew that he was after her?
Oh well, I guess we can speculate on this all we want, and will have to hope that the movie answers at least some of these.

"I need that in Captain Dummy talk..."

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Friday, July 16, 2004 5:26 AM

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER

I've seen a lot of conspircy speculation about both Inara and Book, and as cool as some of the theories are... I don't think there is any grand scheme to Book being on board Serenity.
I think he is just a man with a past that hasn't yet been revealed. And he probably was a lawman as some have suggested.
The thing Inara says intrigues me because she says it while looking at River. Is she saying it to River or to Mal?
Tricky writers. *grr* LOL.

"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon
"Where else are you going to get a love story that begins:
Boy meets girl. Girl kicks boy's ass." NYPinTA @WatchFarscape.com

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Friday, July 16, 2004 5:53 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

I always took it not so much that River was innocent as in not guilty of something, but that she was an innocent, unskilled in the ways of society due to spending her formative years in the Academy.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, July 16, 2004 6:02 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by everyworldspinnin:
But why would he have beaten the lawman in Serenity, and why wouldn't River blow his cover (or just take him out) if she knew that he was after her?

Book decks Dobson to stop him getting shot; while preserving his cover.

River doesn't read plot details, just suppressed emotions.

Only Purplebelly believes any of this

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Friday, July 16, 2004 6:05 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherMudder:
I don't think there is any grand scheme

You're a wise and fortunate person.
I believe this is the best way to enjoy the plot developments.
If only I could do it

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Friday, July 16, 2004 6:08 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by everyworldspinnin:
I have fixed the original post.

Now it's really going to look as though I'm round the bend.
Good job it's true

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Friday, July 16, 2004 6:30 AM

KURUKAMI

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:
Originally posted by everyworldspinnin:
But why would he have beaten the lawman in Serenity, and why wouldn't River blow his cover (or just take him out) if she knew that he was after her?

Book decks Dobson to stop him getting shot; while preserving his cover.

And Dobson then hit him in the head three times with a bottle while no one else was around because...?

Nope. It's doesn't make sense that way.

(edit) Wait, I think I read your comment all wrong. I originally thought you meant Book and Dobson were in cahoots. Still, I don't think Book is after River so much. I'm sticking to the theory I put out a long while back -- Book's ex-bounty-hunter, possibly ex-military-intelligence, trying to start his life anew after an epiphany. The problem is, that one line suggests he really hasn't left the mindset completely behind yet...
"Sir, I would like to gingerly point out that it is difficult for someone to be gently reassuring when they're holding three and a half feet of sharpened steel."

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Friday, July 16, 2004 6:38 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurukami:
(edit) Wait, I think I read your comment all wrong. I originally thought you meant Book and Dobson were in cahoots.

Sorry I was a bit terse, Kurukami. But I've whittered on so much in so many places, I just assume I'm repeating myself. I should shut up.

But while I'm here. That's right, Book and Dobson aren't in cahoots; the possessive pronoun in my original refers to Book.

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Friday, July 16, 2004 8:20 AM

SHINYSEVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
As for Book? In OoG, when River catches Book reading his bible, and says ' don't be afraid...that's what it says.... but you are', I think that and the scene from OiS shows that Book has some real faith issues, as in the lack of having any. He might be a preacher now, but I think it may be a path he didn't take untill very recently.

Awww, a person can have strong religious faith, and for that matter have lead an unblemished life (which it seems fairly unlikely that Book did) and STILL be afraid at what looks like the approach of imminent death.

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Friday, July 16, 2004 9:49 AM

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:

You're a wise and fortunate person.

Finally! Someone sees the real me! LOL!

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:I believe this is the best way to enjoy the plot developments.
If only I could do it

Well, I meant there was no grand scheme in terms of Book being on board Serenity because of River specifically... but there is a grand scheme alright... But I'm just gonna let Joss and Co. tell it rather then try to guess. I'm no good at guessing. However, I am good at guessing Christmas presents. It's almost uncanny. ;)

"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon
"Where else are you going to get a love story that begins:
Boy meets girl. Girl kicks boy's ass." NYPinTA @WatchFarscape.com

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Friday, July 16, 2004 10:20 AM

EVENTHORIZON

The way I saw it was who knows we all know the group was tourturing her and experimenting on her.

Prob gave her those extra skills that aren't just being smart. In the early clips, she never seemed psycic on any level- either that, or maybe it was on such a low level they were able to make that skill stronger.

Who knows what that group made her do. She told Jayne she could kill her with her brain. Maybe it was just to scare him, but she doesn't seem to be the type of person who would- or would have to. She did take out those 3 guys, not looking.

She could have been an assassin... or something along those lines, maybe the group would give her something that would allow her to contol her feelings while she did her job... to allow her to do it. It would also explain why, asides from trauma, she's so reluctant to tell Simon what happened.

I think she has done things- by choice or not. With Book's questionable past, he might know about it... either that, or perhaps that's what she projected on him from her own guilt.

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Friday, July 16, 2004 11:25 AM

PURPLEBELLY

I believe River was being prepared for entry to a mandarin cadre; an ability to read through subterfuge would be an advantageous skill. The knowlege that civil officials with enhanced abilities exist puts Book off-balance at being introduced to what he believes is an ambassador.

Only Purplebelly believes any of this

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Friday, July 16, 2004 4:22 PM

FEMALEJAYNE

I agree but more so that he was talking/thinking about all people, not just one. If River is guilty it's of running away

With Hope because love is nothing without hope.

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