Quote:

---

Originally posted by Mopbucket:
Anyhow that's just my 2 cents.

---

Quote:

---

PS-Is it just me or at high altitude (2 minutes from atmo escape) the air would be so thin it would either cause asphyxia or make it nearly impossible to talk?

PSS-Is it just me or is mentioning the altitude thing make me waaaaaaaaaaaaay too nerdy/geeky? DOH!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Thegn:
Finally, someone is beginning to understand. You're halfway there. You just need to stop embellishing it so much. That is not my assumption. I'm not assuming anything. On one case, you have to come up with an unwritten explanation to a 20 minute discrepancy and in the other case you don't. One conclusion conserves the storyline the other one doesn't. Which one the writers meant, I don't know. All I am telling you is that in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events, and in the other case you don't have to, and as a result of that dismissal you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by bobknaptor:
This is a very spirited debate. I like it.

How many shows on television can you sit and discuss in this kind of depth?

(I can just see it now... What do you think Heather Locklear's character really MEANT by sleeping with that girl's boyfriend in Melrose place? do you think she felt guilty about it, or is she just that evil? hehehe)

Joss rocks. How does he come up with these characters that we all care so much about so quickly?

______________
Running low on Firefly quotes.... must replenish my supply on Friday... (is there a new episode this Friday?)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by bobknaptor:
Running low on Firefly quotes.... must replenish my supply on Friday... (is there a new episode this Friday?)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Thegn:
2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by QueenTiye:
Hi again!

Well... no, I don't think the "Shoe on the other foot" issue matters here.

Jayne's a mercenary, and the same way he can betray his partners, bet your bottom dollar he's been betrayed. Nature of the beast.

---

Quote:

---

3. Jayne finds himself slightly in awe of the Doctor's skill. He still plans to sell Simon & River out (but maybe he's wavering a bit. Not much though.)

---

Quote:

---

4. Jayne finds out what the Alliance did to River. He changes his mind. Not because he didn't want to still get paid, but because he hates the Alliance, and this shows that what he is leaving the Tams to is beyond even him to do.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by QueenTiye:




Sorta like (sorry to do it) what I had HOPED would happen to Tyr on Andromeda...but instead, the Tribunites felt the need to make Tyr more sympathetic, and totally unwrote his character. Dumb move, if you ask me (but nobody did...).



QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kef:
Absolutely true. But to him, this time it feels different.

---

Quote:

---

Jayne's seen the doctor save lives before. He watched him save Zoe in "Out Of Gas" for instance. Why would start feeling more respect now?

---

Quote:

---

Everyone on Serenity, including Jayne, has known all along that the Alliance had performed some pretty nasty medical experiments on River. Why would merely finding out what the specific medical proceedure was (which he probably doesn't even understand that well) affect Jayne SO MUCH that he suddenly decides right then and there to change everything?

---

Quote:

---

To throw away a HUGE reward? To get rid of someone who he's sure will be nothing but trouble for himself and Serenity?

---

Quote:

---

It doesn't ring true to me. In your version the change in Jayne happens fairly suddenly. In my version it happens more slowly, more (I think) realistically and humanly.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Thegn:
Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a difference between hearing about someone’s condition and seeing it. And actually, there is no evidence to suggest that Jayne or anyone else on the crew knew anything about the specifics of River's condition prior to the Hospital scene.

Secondly, QueenTiye never suggested that Jayne changed, only that he is human.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:


OT, I know, but...What did they do to Tyr?! Argh, I knew there was a reason I stopped watching Andromeda.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

---

Quote:

---

I don't personally believe any theory that has Jayne undergoing any growth. Not because it isn't plausible, but because I DON'T want it!!!

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kef:
Absolutely true. But to him, this time it feels different.

---

Why?

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Everyone on Serenity, including Jayne, has known all along that the Alliance had performed some pretty nasty medical experiments on River. Why would merely finding out what the specific medical proceedure was (which he probably doesn't even understand that well) affect Jayne SO MUCH that he suddenly decides right then and there to change everything?

---

Because it brings it home again the reality of what he's about to do. It's one thing to know a thing, and its another thing to put all the known facts together, and its a WHOLE OTHER THING to have all the known facts staring you in the face. Human beings are very good at compartmentalizing information - I'd expect that mercenaries are slightly better at it than most. But in this case, no compartmentalization allowed - all of the information was in Jayne's face.

---

Quote:

---

In my version NO change happens to Jayne. Jayne is Jayne, and the events of "Ariel" show us the side of him that allows us to appreciate him, even though we know he's this coarse, crude, and mercenary guy.

BUT... I do believe that human beings are not flat two-dimensional creaturs, and I do believe that Joss Whedon makes whole series about depth of characters, and I do believe that Jayne has his plusses and his minuses, as we know him today.

---

Quote:

---

Praise god almighty someone other then Delvo and I recognize that Jayne is more complex then just a stereotypical mercenary. He's a human being with human emotions and human weaknesses. One of those weaknesses is his own conscience. Maybe Jayne has done a lot of horrible things in his time, but he didn't do any of them without seeking some way of rationalizing them. Jayne is not robotic. He is not just another Dr. Zachary Smith in the old Lost in Space, existing for no other function then to play the protagonist. He is not a sociopath. He seeks out human justification for his actions, like we all do. He doesn't kill for the pleasure of killing. He never kills without something in his head convincing him that the world is a better place for his actions. He would never sell off members of his own crew, unless he could create a similar justification. And his discovery of the specifics of River's treatment by the Alliance must have heavily bruised whatever justification he was using to convince himself that what he was doing was right.

---

Quote:

---

Secondly, QueenTiye never suggested that Jayne changed, only that he is human.

---

Quote:

---

Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a difference between hearing about someone’s condition and seeing it.

---

Quote:

---

And actually, there is no evidence to suggest that Jayne or anyone else on the crew knew anything about the specifics of River's condition prior to the Hospital scene.

---

Quote:

---

So there ya go. I'm throwing my hat into the "Jayne didn't un-betray the Tams" ring.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Delvo:
I really don't get how there can be such a dispute here over something so simple and obvious. There's nothing to debate, because one simple fact makes it absolutely clear; that fact has already been pointed out, but one side here has simply ignored it while looking for ways to conclude the opposite of the obvious...

---

Quote:

---

The Feds already effectively had them. Jayne had arranged this ahead of time. They were in the Feds' own place and the Feds knew where to look for them. According to the original plan, they'd be sitting ducks for 20 or more minutes and then follow a very narrowly prescribed route out.

---

Quote:

---

if the Feds knew where they were and could have grabbed them anytime, that just leaves a big fat plot hole in Jose Molina's script.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Delvo:
So again, to follow through with betraying them, all Jayne had to do was wait for the inevitable events he'd already set in motion before. Suddenly doing something other than that means trying to change the course he was on!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Delvo:
Oh come on now. Everybody knows it can take a several minutes for the security guys to get from where they're stationed to where they need to go. And if they weren't ready quickly enough for Jayne, again, RUSHING THEM OUT COULD NOT POSSIBLY SERVE ANY PURPOSE, because if the security team's not set up and ready to get them, then they're just not set up and ready to get them. So again, to follow through with betraying them, all Jayne had to do was wait for the inevitable events he'd already set in motion before. Suddenly doing something other than that means trying to change the course he was on!

---

Quote:

---

1) The Tams are unconscious - Jayne takes the opportunity to slip out of the morgue and make his call to the Feds, setting the time and place of the handover (assumption: this needed to be earlier than the meeting planned with Mal et al so that the deed is done before time to head back to the transport).

---

Quote:

---

By your theory the Feds were coming to grab them in the diagnostic room. Is that correct? How did the Feds know they were going to be in the diagnostic room? We know Jayne didn't say anything about location to the Fed officer the second time he called him. Therefore he must have told him the first time he called (before they entered the hospital) that the the Tams would be going to the diagnostic room. So why wouldn't the Feds simply have been waiting there for them?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Delvo:
To answer the initial question: Incorrect. I'm not specifying when and where they were supposed to get them. The point is that this is an Alliance facility swarming with Alliance officials. They can arrest them in that room, on the way out, in a bathroom, wherever and whenever. Whether the arrest was supposed to be made in the room or on the way out doesn't matter; Jayne dosen't need to alter the team's plan at all in order to get the Tams caught when they're already this deep in enemy territory. What's so difficult about this?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kef:
So let's say that maybe Jayne didn't know when or where the Feds planned to grab the Tams. He left that up to them. So he tried to rush the Tams out of the HOSPITAL before the Feds swooped down. It still doesn't explain why it took the Feds SO LONG to swoop down after Jayne called to say "we're in", considering that they knew the Tams were coming before they even entered the hospital, and thus had plenty of time to prepare.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by QueenTiye:
One more thought for those who don't want to credit Jayne with any human decency... we don't really have to (I just think that he does have some, and that it shows up in the occassional odd moment).

Jayne could have seen what they did to River and got the creeps. He could have simply decided that he didn't want ANY contact with those Feds at all, and he could have realized that he made a bad deal. So far, I have three reasons for Jayne to commit the un-betrayal:

1. Conscience - he just couldn't do it when he saw what happened to River (oh, and Kef? I think I'm saying something slightly different than what you said before about Jayne - its not that he's so impressed by new medical knowledge of River's condition - it's that he's seeing the reality of it for the first time. For all Jayne knows, River could be a kook all on her own, and Simon just thinks the alliance did that. Or, Jayne could know they did SOMETHING to her, but knowing that they cut open her head and sliced up her brain is a bit more specific. In any event - it's the fact that it's real now, not that it's new information, and that realism is what I meant by "in Jayne's face," not that you could see a particular change of expression on his face. Sorry for the confusion.)

2. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's brains are not people you want to chance running into, much less purposely meet up with them.

3. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's BRAINS would have no qualms double-dealing.

And mind you... all three of those reasons could be true at the same time.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Mopbucket:
As for the whole "assumption" thing. If you've ever done a deconstruction or read any post-modern philosophy you know you can't do anything without making assumptions.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas. He will be nothing more than a predicitable paper cut-out villian of no real interest to anyone.

Ken

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas.

---