Investigating the Death of 'Agent Dubson' by TheSomnambulist

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Investigating the Death of 'Agent Dubson'

POSTED BY: THESOMNAMBULIST
UPDATED: Friday, October 15, 2010 13:25
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 13578
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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 2:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
And when the crew are questioned during Bushwacked by the Alliance officer should there not have been mention that the last known where abouts of Agent Dobson was aboard a Firefly class ship....?

Could be that his failure (and death/disappearance) in a non-Parliament-sanctioned black bag op resulted in the permanent dumping of all info on the mission to keep things simple.

Hands of Blue were not a black op. Hands of Blue along with Alliance was before BDM. When they failed, the recapture job was transferred to The Operative, who was black ops.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 2:55 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Be like trying to discuss original Star Trek without saying that Kirk defeated the Gorn...

DAMMIT, MAN - I HADN'T SEEN THAT ONE YET!!!

[j/k]

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 3:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Hands of Blue were not a black op.

How little you understand clandestine workings....

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 3:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Hands of Blue were not a black op.
How little you understand clandestine workings....

How little you understand the difference between Firefly the series and Serenity the movie.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 3:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Hands of Blue were not a black op.
How little you understand clandestine workings....

How little you understand the difference between Firefly the series and Serenity the movie.

How little you grok of the workings of Joss, the God of this 'Verse.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 4:46 PM

Quote:

Gee.... I believe you accused me of employing straw men arguments. Pot, kettle, etc....

Quote:
Yes, you are really convincing me that this isn't emotional.

Quote:
I'm not questioning your intentions. Nor was I trying to make you feel bad. [...] I'm genuinely not trying to upset you

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:50 AM

Quote:
A) Life sure as hell does pull surprises once in a while, often deadly ones.

B) "Most" people don't deal with hordes of Reavers, and angry alliance troops on their tail, amongst other things. Our crew doesn't live a "normal" life.

But for those who do live lives with that level of danger - yeah, sometimes they do die unexpectedly. And I'd wager that those around them, feel a wee bit more tension for it.

And I never said people don't die in real life. I pointed out that I'm fine with war movies were lots of people die. What I said was people in real life do not die to increase the dramatic tension, not unless you believe there's a higher narrator or author who is writing the lives/stories of the people involved, or a cosmic audience that higher author is trying to shock. This is not a realistic use of death, possibly not even a realistic portrayal of death. It isn't true to real life or the emotions of the audience OR the characters involved.

Quote:
but while I am trying to look at the choices Joss made as a writer and director, and WHY he made them, you seem to only want to look at how it effected you and other people - which is a valid topic and worth discussing - but it IS an emotional one, and not really on the topic of storytelling choices we started with.

Quote:
1) It seems like Joss Whedon is having trouble writing more Firefly because he now regrets killing Wash off.

Wash living has a direct storytelling result in that Joss Whedon still has an Author Avatar character and would want to keep writing Firefly.

2) Wash dying did not have a story purpose, it did not further the story line in any way, as it wasn't part of any sort of plot development. It did potentially have an effect on the MOOD OF THE SCENE, but at the possible detriment of the further storyline (see #1 above).

The effect on the mood for some people (myself) however, was minimal, which made the sacrifice of further storylines not worth it. Arguably, even if the mood had been sufficiently affected, the sacrifice would STILL not be worth it.

Are you really trying to claim that when I'm talking about how Wash's death effects the possible continuation of the franchise, that I'm really talking about how it effects us all emotionally?

Please stop trying to attach meanings that I did not intend to the things that I am saying. This is straightforward and not complicated, as much as you're trying to make it be. "No more Firefly" is a possible failure state of the scenario that I proposed. It is a possible cause and effect that I clearly demarcated and outlined.

Now. You have repeatedly claimed that my arguments come from an emotional standpoint. A few posts ago, you took one of my comments completely out of context to twist it into "evidence" that because I'm being emotional, therefore my argument itself has an emotional basis. You conflate my being angry and annoyed with you for insulting me with me being angry and upset that Wash died, despite my claims otherwise.

For the record, I did not cry when Wash died, as I did not know Wash from the series. I still am somewhat ambivalent to his death, as I think there are far more important and interesting storylines to explore. My continuing argument relates to my observation that Wash dying seems to possibly have lead to a problem with the continuation of the franchise.

Finally, you are unwilling to concede my arguments might even have the slightest logical basis, but that you just don't agree with my conclusions. I would be satisfied with just this much, but I don't think there's anything I can say at this point that you would be willing to take as a non-emotional argument, because this is simply what you want to see. I have my suspicions on WHY that is, but out of politeness I won't elaborate.

I'd be willing to consider this a misunderstanding on your part, except in nearly every post you have made to me in this thread, you've a clear effort (and sometimes it has REALLY been an effort) to paint me as just being emotional, so all my arguments, logical or not, valid or not, may be dismissed.

At this point, I consider this deliberate. Regardless, I'm still pissed off at you this morning.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 5:31 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Bytemite is nuanced. Me, I'm crude in my objections to how Joss revised his script when he jammed Wash's death into it.
In Joss's first version of the script, where Wash lives:
1) Serenity is facing the direction of the Reavers when the crash ends.
2) Wash says his “I'm a leaf on the Wind” catchphrase.
3) Crew see the Reavers arrive.
4) Crew & Wash run away in terror.
It makes perfect sense. Good job, Joss!

In the second version Joss wrote, where Wash dies, everything is same except:
3) Crew see nothing. Nothing at all!
It is not believable that Mal and Zoe are oblivious to the arrival of Reavers. Is Mal's memory so short that he has forgotten the Reavers? But that's the way Joss faked it so that Wash's death is a big surprise that none saw coming.

Joss Whedon did not sufficiently revise the script when he decided to kill Wash. In plain English, Joss did a half-ass job. Movies are industrial products and killing Wash this particular way was one of the mistakes Joss made in the "engineering" design of Serenity.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 5:44 AM

Quote:
Bytemite is nuanced.

I thought I was more of a broad.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:00 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Joss gave X-Man Wolverine's mutant healing power to Jayne. Joss wrote Astonishing X-Men No. 1 (July, 2004) about the same time as Serenity. Some ways Joss made Jayne a mutant like Wolverine: a) Jayne is harpooned, yet hardly bleeds. b) The Reavers pull hard on the harpoon, yet Jayne's leg doesn't rip open. c) Jayne removes the harpoon without any help. d) Jayne drank whiskey and healed, while Wolverine drank beer and healed.

It was plainly wrong for Joss to give Jayne mutant healing powers. And this is not the only mistake he made.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:39 AM

To be fair, the Reavers probably didn't want just Jayne's leg to chomp on, but his whole self.

That said, considering Jayne was being pulled almost horizontal by the harpoon... Hmm.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Joss gave X-Man Wolverine's mutant healing power to Jayne. Joss wrote Astonishing X-Men No. 1 (July, 2004) about the same time as Serenity. Some ways Joss made Jayne a mutant like Wolverine: a) Jayne is harpooned, yet hardly bleeds. b) The Reavers pull hard on the harpoon, yet Jayne's leg doesn't rip open. c) Jayne removes the harpoon without any help. d) Jayne drank whiskey and healed, while Wolverine drank beer and healed.

It was plainly wrong for Joss to give Jayne mutant healing powers. And this is not the only mistake he made.

Mal was completely impaled with a sword and kept fighting. You don't think he had some mutant powers?

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 10:03 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Now that you mention it, Joss gave Mal some minor mutant powers. I saw Jayne as the bigger mutant because he was furry faced like Wolverine. I think Joss got his X-Man comic writing pages mixed up with his Serenity script. He probably printed both out the same day. There's a fancy explanation called "cross-pollination of genre", also known as "Oops, I Screwed Up".

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 10:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

Mal was completely impaled with a sword and kept fighting.

To this day I'm kinda fuzzy on where exactly he got poked. I believe the thrust was deflected some, and I conjure it was more a slice on his side, going through his clothes...

Am I wrong here?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 10:49 AM

Quote:
To this day I'm kinda fuzzy on where exactly he got poked. I believe the thrust was deflected some, and I conjure it was more a slice on his side, going through his clothes...

Am I wrong here?

Through the love handles I thought, not that he has them. Kinda wonder how it missed the kidney though.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

That said, considering Jayne was being pulled almost horizontal by the harpoon... Hmm.

In THAT case, faster would NOT be better.

Anyway, he wasn't being pulled, it was holding onto him, like a fishing line before it's reeled in. If it was pulling him, then yeah, his leg would have torn wide open.
Later, clearly, Simon must have patched him up REAL GOOD.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Through the love handles I thought, not that he has them. Kinda wonder how it missed the kidney though.

I saw that "HOLY S**T" look on Mal's face, but I think he's just assumed the worst as the piercing pain stung- and then almost surprise, indicating to me that he realized it wasn't nearly the killing strike intended. Hence my "slice" conjuring.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 11:08 AM

Quote:
Anyway, he wasn't being pulled, it was holding onto him, like a fishing line before it's reeled in. If it was pulling him, then yeah, his leg would have torn wide open.

Well, it would have to be pulling on him a little, otherwise the hovermule would have to constantly be accelerating or air resistance would have to generate enough horizontal force that Jayne would actually go horizontal.

60 mph, which is what it maybe looked like the mule was traveling at might be enough.

Though the harpoon also tugged him down from where he was standing.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 11:24 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

How come my spelling of DOBSON has changed?

In the heading it's with the 'O'
and in the thread when opened it's with a 'U'
?
Anyone else getting that or is it just me...?

What the ?!!! Two minutes later and it's gone back again....

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Though the harpoon also tugged him down from where he was standing.

Relative vehicle movement was not constant.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
How come my spelling of DOBSON has changed?

In the heading it's with the 'O'
and in the thread when opened it's with a 'U'
?
Anyone else getting that or is it just me...?

Yeah, someone must have corrected it along the way, but it doesn't change everywhere...

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:03 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Anyway, he wasn't being pulled, it was holding onto him, like a fishing line before it's reeled in. If it was pulling him, then yeah, his leg would have torn wide open.

Well, it would have to be pulling on him a little, otherwise the hovermule would have to constantly be accelerating or air resistance would have to generate enough horizontal force that Jayne would actually go horizontal.

60 mph, which is what it maybe looked like the mule was traveling at might be enough.

Though the harpoon also tugged him down from where he was standing.

The wind couldn't have been enough to keep Jayne horizontal. Soon as the Reaver rope broke, Jayne's boots were dragging on the ground. It was the pull on the rope that kept Jayne in the air. And that strong pull ought to rip open Jayne down to his ankle bone. But it didn't so Jayne must be a mutant.

Changing subjects from Mal's incredibly accurate shooting of the rope to shooting the Operative's gun in Joss' script: If you're a killer and you have shot the gun from the hand of your mortal enemy, the Operative, the sensible tactic is for Mal to kill the Operative. But, No . . .

“Mal, it's ignoble to win easily. Turn your back on your enemy,” whispers Joss. "Besides, you're an X-Man. I know you will heal." Worst advice ever given by a scriptwriter to a character. Mal gets stabbed for listening to Joss.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

Mal was completely impaled with a sword and kept fighting.
To this day I'm kinda fuzzy on where exactly he got poked. I believe the thrust was deflected some, and I conjure it was more a slice on his side, going through his clothes...

Am I wrong here?

Straight through the kidneys IIRC. The scene got edited after the prescreenings. There was a strong sense of disbelief that Mal could be stabbed clean through and keep on fighting.

It's still pretty clear that he pulls the sword all the way back out before trying to stab the operative.

Though I guess you can assume due to the edit that the scene was more or less changed and given endless time and money Joss would have reshot it so Mal wasn't impaled. Still the fact that it was there in the first place seems pretty far fetched for me.

I agree about Jayne's leg too btw. He had nothing but a small limp like 10 minutes later when he was helping Kaylee clean up. That's one speedy recovery.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

It's still pretty clear that he pulls the sword all the way back out before trying to stab the operative.

Of his clothes & him, or just him?

I need to study it, obviously....

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:32 PM

Hoo-boy, lemme wipe the egg off my face! He is CLEARLY stabbed through his left side, missing the stomach, but RIGHT where a kidney would be...
Adrenaline, there IS no substitute!
I WILL say he was lookin' pretty bad towards the end, coughing & all...

I seen this movie upwards of fifty times, and this is the first time I *cared* to know precisely where he was stabbed!!! The emotions of the scene just blur small stuff like that out for me, I conjure.
And that's how good the movie is.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
There was a strong sense of disbelief that Mal could be stabbed clean through and keep on fighting.

Funny thing- Jubal Early punched Mal a few times & he was out.
But that was when Mal had a hope.
The Serenity Mal was close to gone. And in that moment, expected to die for his belief. For one last stand against Alliance BS.
Chemistry is a weird thing. Jubal caught him cold. The Operative confronted him hot. A lot a man can do, in the perceived last moments of his time in this 'Verse....

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:00 PM

The Operative takes Mal out pretty quickly in the training house, too. Though admittedly not as fast as Jubal Early. Still, he's a brawler, and they're better trained in hand to hand combat.

It's more like Mal just got lucky during the end fight, and the Operative got cocky.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
the Operative got cocky.

That was his sin... but Mal wasn't lucky- he was on a suicide run, that panned out to be a redemption of sorts, thanks to his innate humanity when dealing with the then-helpless Operative.
Monsters can be unmade, and anyone tells you different is either faith-challenged, or a NeoCon.

Or hates Return of the Jedi...

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, October 15, 2010 11:47 AM

So, Mal still fighting after the pin cushion action: do you buy it or not?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, October 15, 2010 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So, Mal still fighting after the pin cushion action: do you buy it or not?

The laughing Chrisisall

In real life, not a chance. In action hero/climax of the movie-land... I've seen things far more outlandish.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, October 15, 2010 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

In real life, not a chance.

Not even an itty-bitty one?

IRL I once had an accident where I was cut to the bone on my palm/wrist, & lost 4 pints of blood walking to the hospital- mostly on my own (some dude saw me & pointed me in the right direction near the end, then walked with me when he saw all the blood). Aside from being FREEZING COLD, I was not in shock, and I made it all the way. The doctor told me later peeps had died being in my type of position (I guess I should have called 911, but I'm stubborn that way).

An I'm frankly not a very tough dude.

I conjure a person IRL like Mal might have been able to deal...

Am I reaching here, you think?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, October 15, 2010 12:39 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

My cousin did a stint in the army and one time during a shooting he was shot in the shoulder. Thing is he didn't realise until someone noticed and started attending to his wound. He's not entirely sure when it happened but he believed it had to have been about 20 minutes before his colleague spotted it.

That said you'd notice a sword so not sure if that has much in common with Mal - but y'know. adrenaline n'all.

By the way Chris! Four pints of blood! Sheesh you lucky to be alive! I reckon your calm composure saved you.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

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Friday, October 15, 2010 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

I reckon your calm composure saved you.

Actually I was COMPLETELY pissed off at the inconvenience of needing stitches... I guess I was going with Wrath.

Sometimes a touch of the Dark Side is useful...

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, October 15, 2010 1:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

In real life, not a chance.
Not even an itty-bitty one?

Okay, sure, an itty one. ;)

And don't start with that not tough stuff. We know you are nigh-invulnerable.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, October 15, 2010 1:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Okay, sure, an itty one. ;)

Is "itty" a bigger possibility than "itty-bitty?"

Quote:

And don't start with that not tough stuff. We know you are nigh-invulnerable.

Hard-to-kill does not automatically equal "tough."

The laughing Chrisisall

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