GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

They took away Christmas . . .

POSTED BY: KEF
UPDATED: Sunday, August 24, 2003 14:52
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Monday, November 18, 2002 7:38 PM

KEF


If anyone's confused, I was trying to rename/remake this thread so it's more to the point. Didn't work.
Anyway, this thread for the grand and glorious purpose of interpreting, theorizing and discussing all Riverspeak, and any theories about River in general.

Riverspeak is extremely fascinating to me.

Please contribute your thoughts!


Further thoughts about River's Christmas rant . . .

The three of them are sitting there in custody, and Jayne tells Simon to shut up because he needs to think. A few moments later River says, "They took away Christmas . . . "

What I think is happening is that River is reading Jayne's SUBCONCIOUS mind. She's getting an emotional impression of what Jayne is FEELING subconciously, and interpreting it the best way she can.

Possibly this fits in with what Simon said in the diagnostic room about how her brain is working now, since they stripped her amygdala? - "She feels everything. She can't not."

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:08 PM

KEF


Someone pointed out somewhere that River was actually slashing the Blue Sun logo on Jayne's shirt. Apparently it's in the actual script. It's the same reason she tore the labels off the cans in Shindig. (is that the right episode?)

Maybe River was saying that the Blue Sun logo looked better in red- bloodstained- i.e. they have blood on their hands. Think about it.


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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:02 PM

KEF


"Just keep walking, preacher."

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:51 PM

ARCPLAYER


I think that you are on the right track.
Also, River apears to tap into memories as well. The lecture she gives about not peaking at the presents "its gready and not in the spirit of the holiday" sounded like it could be a memory of Jayne's mother explaining Christmass when he was a child.
When she wakes up and says "A copper for a kiss?", I thought she could be tapping into a Jayne memory of a first kiss. He seemed to be noticing her as a woman when he was reviving the Tams.
In another episode she rattles off the official designation of Serenity just as Mal enters. He said that even he can't remember all that. I thought that that was exactly where she came up with it.

This is my favorite series.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 7:56 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by arcplayer:
I think that you are on the right track.
Also, River apears to tap into memories as well. The lecture she gives about not peaking at the presents "its gready and not in the spirit of the holiday" sounded like it could be a memory of Jayne's mother explaining Christmass when he was a child.


Tapping into merories- definitely. Although in this case my theory is that she's basically just picking up on Jayne's disappointment at losing the reward. (although perhaps it's triggering a subconcious memory in him of childhood disappointment?)
Then she says "Don't look in the closet- it's greedy." I think she means that Jayne has a 'skeleton in his closet' - being greedy, he turned them in for the reward.
Someone else in another thread wrote that (I'm not sure I'm getting this right) after Jayne learned what had been done to River, he no longer felt right about turning her in and collecting the reward. They (the ones who messed with River) took away Christmas for him.
Quote:

When she wakes up and says "A copper for a kiss?", I thought she could be tapping into a Jayne memory of a first kiss.

My take was this: After she says "A copper for a kiss?" (right after Jayne returns from alerting the Fed officer, turning them in) Jayne, startled, says "Jesus." Is this a reference to Judas betraying Jesus with a kiss, for thirty pieces of silver?
Quote:

He seemed to be noticing her as a woman when he was reviving the Tams.

That's an interesting thought!
Quote:

In another episode she rattles off the official designation of Serenity just as Mal enters. He said that even he can't remember all that. I thought that that was exactly where she came up with it.

Yeah, exactly! I missed that one.
Quote:

This is my favorite series.

Big ditto on that.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:58 AM

REYVNDARKNIGHT


Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
Someone pointed out somewhere that River was actually slashing the Blue Sun logo on Jayne's shirt. Apparently it's in the actual script. It's the same reason she tore the labels off the cans in Shindig. (is that the right episode?)

Maybe River was saying that the Blue Sun logo looked better in red- bloodstained- i.e. they have blood on their hands. Think about it.




Excellent point Kef. Hadn't considered that theory. makes me want to go back and rewatch "Ariel".

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:29 AM

NIXXIGNATIUS


heh. I'm sure someone else has already mentioned this somewhere else, but I figure it can't hurt to add in my own insight.

Has anyone thought about why they [the writers] named the character River?

Rivers can be altered or blocked, but they still flow around obstacles, usually man made. Kind of like what the blue meanies have done to River's brain.

As for the Christmas comment, I have an additional look at it. Traditionally, Christmas is about family. On this show, family means the crew. Maybe River knew how the Captain would react? Maybe Jayne won’t be as much of a member of crew anymore?




Nixx

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:29 AM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


Quote:

Originally posted by arcplayer:

In another episode she rattles off the official designation of Serenity just as Mal enters. He said that even he can't remember all that. I thought that that was exactly where she came up with it.



Don't forget, in addition to being psychic, River's also a fricking genius, so she didn't really have to look into Mal's head to pull up stats on the ship. I didn't sound to me as if they were specific to Serenity, I think Mal would have a been a little freaked out if they had been, more likely they were just general details in common to all Firefly ships.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 10:40 AM

RHEA


The "A copper for a kiss" and Jayne's subsequent "Jesus Christ!" seemed to me to be a blatant refernce to Judas betraying Christ.

And I assumed that the Christmas thing referred to Jayne ending up with no reward. But if that's the case, then what the heck is the whole closet reference about?

I love Riverspeak too.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:01 AM

NIXXIGNATIUS


::And I assumed that the Christmas thing referred to Jayne ending up with no reward. But if that's the case, then what the heck is the whole closet reference about?::

I'm surprised someone hasn't made a reference to River outing Jayne. :)

Nixx

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:18 PM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


Someone needs to visit the HoYay thread.

Although I was kind of joking when I mentioned it, but if thats not it I would love to know exactly what she did mean.

Okay, in The Train Job when she mentioned Mal meaning bad in Latin. Anyone thinking this was something more than just a random observation?

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:25 PM

BOILTHESEA


I think the quote was, "Don't look in the closet either-it's greedy. Not in the spirit of the holiday."

The "holiday" started out as a humanitarian mission: getting River the help she so desperately needs. Jayne's betrayal wasn't "in the right spirit" for sure, as well as the fact that he cut Simon's time in the lab short by 20 minutes.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 1:09 PM

EVANS


Quote:

Has anyone thought about why they [the writers] named the character River?

I thought there was a River Tam (a river named Tam) in Scotland, but now I think I'm wrong. Long sigh.

m.

------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 8:39 AM

NIXXIGNATIUS


Someone needs to visit the HoYay thread.::

Actually, that's what inspired my post.

I just don't see Mal or Jayne as being gay. Simon gives off the vibes though.

And speaking of Jayne, has anyone heard the song "A boy named Sue."

The song reminds me of Jayne. Wonder if it inspired the naming of the character.

Nixx

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:58 AM

ARCPLAYER


Quote:

Origionally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:

Don't forget, in addition to being psychic, River's also a fricking genius, so she didn't really have to look into Mal's head to pull up stats on the ship. I didn't sound to me as if they were specific to Serenity, I think Mal would have a been a little freaked out if they had been, more likely they were just general details in common to all Firefly ships.



I'm not disputing her intelligence. I thought it unlikely that even a genious would know the type of ship she was on from seeing the infirmery. Simon told her they were on a ship. My theory is that she "searched" for the memories that would give her the most information on precisely the type of ship that she was on.

Also on "The Train Job", when Simon was first talking to her we saw that ,while she was disoriented and upset, she seemed to be listening very intently to something. Perhaps this was a cue that she was touching the other minds on the ship.

I'm watching the episode again. I didn't notice that River called Mal by name without having heard it previously.

On OOG, when it is Simon's turn to tell a funny story, is River smiling because her brother is the center of attention? Or, is she smiling because she has heard the story before? Or is she smiling because she can see the story he is trying to tell the crew?

I started to bring up this as a psychic example, but it works just as well to think she is happy that her brother is getting attention.


This is my favorite series.

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 11:50 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by arcplayer:
On OOG, when it is Simon's turn to tell a funny story, is River smiling because her brother is the center of attention? Or, is she smiling because she has heard the story before? Or is she smiling because she can see the story he is trying to tell the crew?

I stated to bring up this as a psychic example, but it works just as well to think she is happy that her brother is getting attention.


This is my favorite series.


I like either the first or third possibility. I liked how she started to "rant" about how birthdays based on planetary cycles have no meaning in outer space, then she pauses for a moment, and says to Simon, "I didn't get you anything."
That whole scene is great.

They have a very close loving relationship. It's so cool. We don't get to see enough of that from her side because often when they're together she's having one of her "spells." She oviously loves her brother so much- and also is very proud of him. Remember the smile on her face in the hospital when Simon saved that patient? She was happy the guy was saved, but it was also like "See that? That's my brother!"

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Friday, November 22, 2002 9:11 AM

BOBKNAPTOR


I wonder how long it will take the crew to realize that she is psychic and start taking her ramblings more seriously. For instance: In OoG, at Simon's birthday, the cake is in front of him, and River's face goes blank and she says "fire". Simon assumes she's talking about the candles and says he'll blow them out, and suddenly there is a huge fire on the ship.

______________
Of course I'm scared. Last time we were here, 33.3 percent of us were flayed alive.

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Friday, November 22, 2002 9:28 AM

RHEA


Quote:

Originally posted by bobknaptor:
I wonder how long it will take the crew to realize that she is psychic and start taking her ramblings more seriously. For instance: In OoG, at Simon's birthday, the cake is in front of him, and River's face goes blank and she says "fire". Simon assumes she's talking about the candles and says he'll blow them out, and suddenly there is a huge fire on the ship.

______________
Of course I'm scared. Last time we were here, 33.3 percent of us were flayed alive.



She's been doing that all along. In Bushwacked, she could hear the dead people screaming before the bodies were found, and she knew where they were.

She also knew the exact moment the faux Reaver woke up and started mutilating himself.

In Safe, she reacted the exact moment Book was shot.


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Friday, November 22, 2002 4:43 PM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


Quote:

Originally posted by bobknaptor:
I wonder how long it will take the crew to realize that she is psychic and start taking her ramblings more seriously. For instance: In OoG, at Simon's birthday, the cake is in front of him, and River's face goes blank and she says "fire". Simon assumes she's talking about the candles and says he'll blow them out, and suddenly there is a huge fire on the ship.



Hopefully soon, cause honestly if they don't get it soon I'm going to start thinking they're all a bunch of idiots. Simon has to have an inkling by now, after what happened with mute Ruby in "Safe" he has to realize something's up.

I'm waiting for the episode where they land on a planet where River's abilities will get her labeled as a wise woman instead of a witch. Okay, I don't actually want to see this on the show, but I was a bit disappointed that the only reaction to River's powers so far has been 'Hey, she's a witch!' Where are the backwater planets where River's powers would actually be respected?

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Saturday, November 23, 2002 10:08 PM

DOUG


Getting off subject a bit, River's rant indicates they probably still celebrate Christmas 500 years from now. So maybe we'll get to see how the crew celebrates the holidays.

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Sunday, November 24, 2002 4:40 AM

DOCEBO


Speaking of the holidays, how do you think they determine time? Do they still use the earth calendar and time in space? They did mention that each planet uses its own time, but i guess in space you could it determine however you want. Anyway this has been bothering me for a couple of days now. Sorry to hijack the thread. (ok so I'm not really sorry )

-Docebo

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Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:05 AM

EVANS


Quote:

Originally posted by Docebo:
Speaking of the holidays, how do you think they determine time?


If you do a little amateur astronomy, you can get positively dizzy about time. Everything, absolutely everything, is moving. Mostly moving away. I am perfectly happy for Firefly to employ the fiction of a fixed calendar ...

Inara sits in front of a console, programming appointments.

INARA: Beaumont. City of New Densmia. Arrival October 24th. Departure --


... so that we don't have to get a lengthy physics lesson in each episode.

m.
------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

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Sunday, November 24, 2002 1:25 PM

DOCEBO


Sounds like a plan to me. I withdraw my question. Did you hear me Joss? I am saying i do not need to know how they tell time, my brain hurts to much as it is already


-Docebo

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Sunday, November 24, 2002 4:52 PM

KEF


That falls under the sci-fi TV/film "just take it for granted for the sake of convenience" rule. Like gravity aboard spaceships.

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Monday, November 25, 2002 9:19 AM

BOBKNAPTOR


hehe. I personally like the star trek system of "Stardate 144938" or whatever, some random number that makes no sense to me. then I don't have to think about the calendar, I just trust that it exists, and it makes sense to the characters.

______________
SERENITY NOW!!!!

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Monday, November 25, 2002 9:39 AM

ILOVEJAYNE


Hey Nixx...

"My name is SUE! HOW DO YOU DO!?! NOW YOU'RE GONNA DIE!!!"

One of the greatest lyrics ever written.

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Wednesday, November 27, 2002 12:43 PM

MORWYND


'I personally like the star trek system of "Stardate 144938" or whatever, some random number that makes no sense'

Actually, in Next Generation anyway, the first digit indicated the century, and the second digit was the season number, so a stardate such as 45332.8 would indicate 24th century, 5th season, about a third of the way through. This system is pretty consistent throughout TNG's run.

Of course, this completely ignores the fact that there are 100 years in a century, not 10. But hey, Trek is famous for inventing poorly thought out "rules" which have to be abandoned later when they fall apart.

Oh well... *goes back to watching Babylon 5, where things actually have consequences*

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Friday, November 29, 2002 10:20 AM

KURUKAMI


Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
Someone pointed out somewhere that River was actually slashing the Blue Sun logo on Jayne's shirt. Apparently it's in the actual script. It's the same reason she tore the labels off the cans in Shindig. (is that the right episode?)

Maybe River was saying that the Blue Sun logo looked better in red- bloodstained- i.e. they have blood on their hands. Think about it.



Perhaps. The chronology was:

Jayne's cleaning his knife and spits on the whetstone. Simon makes a comment about not doing that again, ever. Jayne looks scornfully at Simon and spits on the knife deliberately to finish cleaning it. River gets up to go to the kitchen, and grabs a knife while the conversation continues and Jayne sharpens his knife repetitively. Then she walks back to the table and slashes Jayne across the chest. He backhands her across the face, everyone jumps into action, and she comments "He looks better in red."

Now, here's my take on it. River, as we've seen, has some psychic gift or telepathy that she can't entirely control. She molds many of her thoughts and actions after the ways of others nearby -- as with Badger, in "Shindig". My supposition is that River "read" Jayne while he was cleaning his knife and Simon made the comment. Jayne might've been thinking that he'd like to slash the doctor across the chest in response to his comment, and then say something to the effect of "He looks better in red."

It's a bit of a stretch, but River was looking straight at Jayne when she said that -- not at any of the others. Given the later comment about River feeling everything -- and that she can't not -- it could be that she's not entirely responsible for that action. She read it from Jayne and her mind in its somewhat deluded state thought, "Hey, that's not a bad idea... particularly since he's thinking about hurting my brother."

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Friday, November 29, 2002 2:30 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Kurukami:
QUOTE]Originally posted by kef:
Someone pointed out somewhere that River was actually slashing the Blue Sun logo on Jayne's shirt. Apparently it's in the actual script. It's the same reason she tore the labels off the cans in Shindig. (is that the right episode?)

Maybe River was saying that the Blue Sun logo looked better in red- bloodstained- i.e. they have blood on their hands. Think about it.
Quote:



Perhaps. The chronology was:

Jayne's cleaning his knife and spits on the whetstone. Simon makes a comment about not doing that again, ever. Jayne looks scornfully at Simon and spits on the knife deliberately to finish cleaning it. River gets up to go to the kitchen, and grabs a knife while the conversation continues and Jayne sharpens his knife repetitively. Then she walks back to the table and slashes Jayne across the chest. He backhands her across the face, everyone jumps into action, and she comments "He looks better in red."

Now, here's my take on it. River, as we've seen, has some psychic gift or telepathy that she can't entirely control. She molds many of her thoughts and actions after the ways of others nearby -- as with Badger, in "Shindig". My supposition is that River "read" Jayne while he was cleaning his knife and Simon made the comment. Jayne might've been thinking that he'd like to slash the doctor across the chest in response to his comment, and then say something to the effect of "He looks better in red."

It's a bit of a stretch, but River was looking straight at Jayne when she said that -- not at any of the others. Given the later comment about River feeling everything -- and that she can't not -- it could be that she's not entirely responsible for that action. She read it from Jayne and her mind in its somewhat deluded state thought, "Hey, that's not a bad idea... particularly since he's thinking about hurting my brother."



That's an interesting idea.

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Friday, November 29, 2002 7:41 PM

GAHERIS


That IS an interesting idea. I don't buy it. River, though deluded, seems to only harbor rancor for one thing: the color blue. She fears Blue hand guys and dislikes Blue Sun. I don't think River'd try to hurt Jayne. Look at the example where River wants to save the guy in the hospital at "ARIEL" she says "I've got to save him" even though its none of her business. Chronology was :
Jayne spits. Simon "can you not do that when we're... Ever?" Jayne hawks and spits. River wanders off grabs knife. Walks right by Jayne and slices RIGHT OVER Blue sun logo.

However, I do have a theory for "He looks better in red."

Jayne is a mercenary. Very bloody type man. He's killed people with guns, with his bare hands, with knives. She might be reading that off him and playing off it. Also her empathic/Psychic power having absolutely no blunting shield might (i'm acceding a bit to the draw from jayne's head thing) have drawn some hostility from Jayne and Simon to add to her little attack.

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Saturday, August 23, 2003 9:29 PM

3278


Quote:

Originally posted by arcplayer:
When she wakes up and says "A copper for a kiss?", I thought she could be tapping into a Jayne memory of a first kiss. He seemed to be noticing her as a woman when he was reviving the Tams.


Well, he was giving the same look to Simon, so unless Jayne was also noticing Simon as a woman for the first time, I'd tend to disregard that notion.

It seems to me that her waking statement can't really be in reference to Jayne's betrayal. If you watch the process of expressions on her face, she moves from her waking smile to a look of increasing confusion and suspicion, as if she's hearing the thoughts Jayne's having as she surprises him, as if she's hearing his guilty conscience. I suspect she'd have known right then what had occured, if they hadn't been interrupted by Simon's own awakening, and River's subsequent reaction to the drug.

River's mental state is perhaps the hardest aspect of the show to write around. Why, for instance, didn't she see Saffron's betrayal coming? [Of course, Joss wisely kept River offscreen for the majority of that episode, as Edlund and Molina do in Trash.] Why did it take so long - from Ariel to Trash - for River to figure out what Jayne had done, and then communicate it to Simon? She's a hard girl to write around, which is why it works so much better to write for her, as the most River-centric episodes do.

As for why she says "Copper for a kiss," I think that's the only line in the show that River says that I've not been able to make sense of, which has always made me suspect it was more intended to be weird and disturbing ["morbid and creepifying"] than sensical.

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Saturday, August 23, 2003 9:41 PM

3278


Quote:

Originally posted by Gaheris:
That IS an interesting idea. I don't buy it. River, though deluded, seems to only harbor rancor for one thing: the color blue.


I think it's likely less the color than Blue Sun in particular. I mean, she doesn't run around slicing up the lower cabinets in the common area, for instance.

Quote:

Chronology was :
Jayne spits. Simon "can you not do that when we're... Ever?" Jayne hawks and spits. River wanders off grabs knife. Walks right by Jayne and slices RIGHT OVER Blue sun logo.


Let's revisit the chronology in more detail, although I think you're largely correct. If you watch very closely while Jayne is replacing the barrel of the last gun he cleans before he starts sharpening the knife, you can see River is already staring at him. After all, he's holding weapons and wearing a Blue Sun shirt.

Then the camera moves to River [While Inara is saying, "Shouldn't be more than a day or two," and you can clearly see her eyes move from his face - licking the big giant knife, of course - to his shirt.

Then Jayne spits, and the camera moves across River. She is clearly sitting, and not moving to stand; the chopsticks are, in fact, still in her hand.

Then it gets hard, because she's entirely off-camera. But if you work out the timing based on her walking speed in the scene where Jayne spits for the second time, you can see she must have stood up just as Simon begins to speak, and could not have stood in response to his statement.

Then, of course, she slices him in the chest with the knife after getting in out of the kitchen. Obviously, she's cutting the Blue Sun symbol.

As for the intent of her statement, I see nothing to recommend any theory over another. Which don't make speculating any less fun. ;)

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 3:29 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Why did it take so long - from Ariel to Trash - for River to figure out what Jayne had done, and then communicate it to Simon?
Not to open up an old can of worms, but if the order turns out to be as Tim Minear indicated, "Trash" comes after "War Stories" - only one episode removed from Jayne's betrayal in Ariel.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 5:10 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Jayne, startled, says "Jesus." Is this a reference to Judas betraying Jesus with a kiss, for thirty pieces of silver?



Even weirder thought, How about Jaynes initals...

Jayne Cobb, JC, Jesus Christ....

old Jayne may be heading toward a more noble end than anyone could guess

" If wishes were Horses, then we'd all be eatting Steak "

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 5:17 AM

SERENITYVALLEY


Quote:

Even weirder thought, How about Jaynes initals...
Jayne Cobb, JC, Jesus Christ....



Ha! Didn't even notice that and I'm generally the first to catch that. They do that in a lot of things like in The Outsiders, Johnny's initials are JC and he ends of sacrificing his life for some children he doesn't even know. Good catch.

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 5:36 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

They do that in a lot of things like in The Outsiders


I wonder if Mr Wheldon even remembers what some of his influences are, from what I have heard on the internet his is extremely well read. Also I am sure Coppola must have been a bit of a directing influence.

I think Jayne is destined to do alot of fighting against his nature, and it would be an appropriate end for the character.

" If wishes were Horses, then we'd all be eatting Steak "

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 11:51 AM

WHOODAHN


Quote:

Even weirder thought, How about Jaynes initals...

Jayne Cobb, JC, Jesus Christ....



He did come from heaven in 'Train Job'. He provided a miracle for the poor in 'Jaynes Town'. He had an idol made of him. He hangs out with a preacher, otherwise known as the Good Book.

You may be onto something....

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 2:00 PM

SERENITYVALLEY


Quote:

He did come from heaven in 'Train Job'. He provided a miracle for the poor in 'Jaynes Town'. He had an idol made of him. He hangs out with a preacher, otherwise known as the Good Book.


Mmm, yes, and the Bible says that there should be no idolitry (sp?) like no worshiping statues and stuff and Jayne pushed down the statue in Jaynetown.

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 2:52 PM

BLACKSTAR


Add in Jayne's conversation with Book about his religious life in War Stories. I always figured he was just curious about Book's sex life, but maybe he was really interested in the whole St. Jayne bit...

Oh, my God! Who's flying this thing! Oh, right, that would be me...

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