Jayne Cobb: Bad man? or just playing the angles? by Superfly

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Jayne Cobb: Bad man? or just playing the angles?

POSTED BY: SUPERFLY
UPDATED: Monday, August 2, 2004 21:20
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VIEWED: 5592
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Monday, August 2, 2004 4:52 AM

So, I've been thinking about Jayne Cobb (shudder... gasp).

Remember when the Fed. mole tried to get Jayne to turn on the Captain in the pilot? And then there was all this tention built up through the rest of the episode where we're supposed to believe that he did. When Mal confronts him, he said he didn't have anything to do with the law man getting out of his room. But ya know, I just don't believe him.

Just doesn't make sense that good old Lawrence would have happened to find a small knife in an otherwise empty and unoccupied room. So, sad to say, I think Jayne gave him the knife.

When you look at the rest of the episode, it may not be easy to believe. Jayne saying the money wasn't good enough seems honest, and he sure did work hard for Mal through that whole Patience thing. If you look at what Jayne looks like before he joined up with Mal (as in OOG), we clearly see he's better off now. But I was thinking, really, Jayne was probably playing the angles here. Help the law man just a bit, make him think he's being really helped, so that if he's succesful, Jayne might have a stake in that reward or at least not be in so much trouble. On the other hand, if Mal still got the better of Lawrence, it would be easy to believe Jayne didn't have anything to do with it because the help wasn't obvious and coudn't lead back to him. Thus, Jayne doesn't get thrown out an air lock and gets to stay on the ship under Mal's trust.

So, what do you guys think. Am I not giving Jayne enough credit? And if he really didn't give the law man that knife, where'd he get if from?

I'm all for Jayne being a bad man... love it really. I just never thought he had a head for that kind of scheeming.

"Also, I can kill you with my brain."

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Monday, August 2, 2004 5:03 AM

WILDHEAVENFARM

Whenever I wonder about Jayne's morals/honor, two lines always come to mind:
1) "That ain't no way for a man to die."
2) "What are you gonna tell 'em, about my being dead? ... Make something up. Don't tell 'em what I did."

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

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Monday, August 2, 2004 5:27 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by Superfly:

Am I not giving Jayne enough credit? And if he really didn't give the law man that knife, where'd he get if from?

I'm all for Jayne being a bad man... love it really. I just never thought he had a head for that kind of scheeming.

I think that Jayne isn't capable of much, if any, scheeming.
He is a big strong slightly stupid, and totally uneducated guy, who used to be convinced that what was 'right' was what made his life easier.
Particularly at the beginning (as in giving the knife to the cop in 'Serenity') he was always on the look out for his best advantage.

But I do think that being around guenuinely decent kind people has made him see things differently. I think he really regreted turning in River & Simon even before the blue hands showed up because he respected Simon for saving the man's life and pitied River because of what was done to her.

I think he is already a better man than he was at the beginning.
But that is not to say he can't back slide, or still make stupid mistakes.

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Monday, August 2, 2004 5:51 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I do believe that Jayne did give the knife to Dobson in "Serenity". I think Jayne figured if Dobson managed to get free and nab Simon & River while he was off w/ Mal & Zoe at the meeting w/ Patience he would cash in later as he "helped" Dobson to escape and complete his mission.

I think Jayne denied helping Dobson, claiming the money "was not good enough", was merely his trying to cover his tracks. I think the money was good enough & had Dobson escaped w/ the Tam siblings, Jayne would have cashed in down the road and left Serenity.

I do think we see Jayne grow some as the series went along. We saw him go from a mercenary only interested in money to a man trying to keep up his tough guy appearance because he does not want people to think he is going soft. Jayne is slowly coming to realize that Serenity is home and the crew are his family.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Monday, August 2, 2004 6:01 AM

BOURNE

I think you're giving him a great deal of credit for cleverness, but no more than he is due. He is a merc approaching middle-age, a statistical anomaly of which he is keenly aware ("My kinda life don't last, preacher"). That he's lasted this long is probably due to a combination of good fortune and good instincts/intuition. He is capable of enough subtlety to know when to stick and when to bail, as he did in that amusing OOG flashback. Easy to interpret that as smart-Mal manipulating dumb-Jayne. But it was a little more than that: Mal didn't try to turn him until AFTER he realized Jayne was the clever one who'd tracked 'em down. He saw Jayne's value and made a genuine proposal, not an attempt to hoodwink him. And Jayne, for his part, probably read Mal as a relatively straight-up(for a smuggler/thief) kinda guy, offering a gig with more of a future. Close enough to smart for me.

Throughout the series' short run, it's clear Jayne is taking his cues from and deferring to Mal, and in the process learning at least the semblance of loyalty. It's true, he betrayed the crew in "Ariel" because the nuances of Mal's definition of loyalty were still unclear to him ("It ain't like I ratted YOU out to the Feds!"). But he's paying attention, and his overall judgement of Mal's character is vindicated by the fact that Mal DOESN'T end up spacing him. He got spanked and put on probation - compare this to his hypothetical fate at the hands of Niska(shudder) or even Badger...our lunkhead obviously made the right choice.

As to the possible betrayal in Serenity...I thought that Lawrence was using a piece of broken glass, not a knife, to sever his bonds. I'll have to look at it again. But even if Jayne had something to do with his escape, the same defense could be offered as was in "Ariel": he wasn't turning on Mal, per se, but on the two troublesome "fugies" (who aren't even part of the crew yet).

Here's another way to look at this. As important as the safety of his crew is to Mal, would he knowingly accept a continued risk to that safety in the form of a unreconstructed mercenary? HE'S got to be smarter than that, even if Jayne isn't. My personal take on it is that Jayne and Mal have an implicit understanding between them. Jayne genuinely respects Mal as a leader, and would not knowingly betray HIM unless he felt Mal betrayed him FIRST. In addition, he is reluctantly starting to include the rest of the crew in his loyalty, if not his respect, for Mal. So scheming and loyal, all in one package.

My two-bits worth.

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Monday, August 2, 2004 6:37 AM

CAPTAINHARBATKIN

I gotta say his morals is awful BENDY, ya ask me...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
...they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their
clothing - and if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Monday, August 2, 2004 7:34 AM

LAILING

And, of course, there are those who would point to Train Job, and say - See? Jayne wanted to just abandon Mal and Zoe so he could go get his money!
To which I would say - actually, if you look at it from INSIDE their universe, instead of from inside of OURS, you'll see that Jayne's thinking was sound. They already know Niska's a dangerous and powerful man. Do they really wanna piss him off? And, in War Stories, we see what happens because they did.
Which, obviously isn't how WE want things to go. We wanted Simon to put Jayne out so the others could go out and rescue "our heroes".
In "reality" however, Jayne isn't as dumb as he seems. In the commentary for "Serenity" Joss & Tim state that Jayne is and will always be "A Bad Guy" - but one who comes not from being what we define as "evil" per se (he doesn't, for example, murder or rape for pleasure), but from having his own set of ethics which are sometimes ruthlessly practical and not understanding when someone else says they're "wrong". So he's a "good bad-guy", if you take my meaning. So, as far as I can see, Jayne's just working the angles, adjusting for changing circumstances and hedging his bets.

^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
"They've gone to *plaid*!"

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Monday, August 2, 2004 7:53 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

In the shooting script it's described as a tiny, jagged piece of metal and not a knife.

check out my WIP firefly roleplay system at www.estador.co.uk/firefly

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Monday, August 2, 2004 8:37 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Everyone here should know my opinion of Jayne Cobb by now. [ Rest of original deleted, as it wasn't in the spirit of the holiday

]

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Monday, August 2, 2004 9:46 AM

GRIMLAKIN

I think Jayne has a sense of honor. He is honest with everyone. He has two people that we know of in his life that he cares about. Himself and his momma. He puts his own life in danger to make things better for his mom. A respectable thing to do. He is a boy raised by men. Perhaps as we learn more of his past we will learn more of his mind.

Jayne strikes me as still being in a very formitive stage. He can obviously learn quickly. He has a good sense of people and how to understand them. But he still looks out for himself more than anyone else. Perhaps mom told him to keep himself safe first and that is just how he thinks.

Jayne isn't evil per say. And I don't see him turning on the crew again without first leaving the crew.

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Monday, August 2, 2004 1:07 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by Bourne:
he betrayed the crew in "Ariel" because the nuances of Mal's definition of loyalty were still unclear to him ("It ain't like I ratted YOU out to the Feds!").

I'd go even further and say that he betrayed a stowaway and an accomplice who endangered what Jayne thought of as "the crew".

Quote:
As to the possible betrayal in Serenity...I thought that Lawrence was using a piece of broken glass, not a knife, to sever his bonds.

I don't see that as important. Jayne's a pro; there shouldn't have been anything sharp in the room with the prisoner. I think Jayne was playing the angles, as originally suggested, and gave it to him.

Quote:
Here's another way to look at this. As important as the safety of his crew is to Mal, would he knowingly accept a continued risk to that safety in the form of a unreconstructed mercenary? HE'S got to be smarter than that, even if Jayne isn't. My personal take on it is that Jayne and Mal have an implicit understanding between them.

I think this is supported by their dialogue @the end of the pilot.

I also believe that "the money" was enough for Jayne to retire on, and Mal knew it. I think Mal knows that Jayne wouldn't turn him in for any sane amount of money, and sees no reason for the Alliance to offer an insane amount.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Long John Baldry, "Right to Sing the Blues"

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Monday, August 2, 2004 2:21 PM

MER

I'm thinking that the metal is something that was already on Dobson, found somewhere on the ship, or something that either Mal or Jayne dropped by accident.

I would think that Jayne would do it himself to turn in the Tams. If Dobson would, he'd be off with the money and Jayne would be left standing.

But then again, I could be wrong.

Jayne is a guy who's values are a bit wavy. He just doesn't know right from wrong. Even though he's thinking of himself, he probably has the mentality of the typical guy out in a new fronter. To not trust anyone but yourself. But I do think he cares about his family at least. He's sending money home whenever he can.

I think I'm repeating myself...all in all, "Jayne is a naughty boy who needs proper disciple."

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Monday, August 2, 2004 4:09 PM

CORWYN

Nope. Jayne was told the payoff, and asked he the question he needed, to see if it was worth it. "Would helping you mean turning on the captain?" "Yes it would." Jayne can not now lie to himself about it. Either he betrays the captain (by helping even a little bit), or he remains loyal. If he helped Dobson, it would have been all the way, not some weaselly little knife thing.

Quote:

I don't see that as important. Jayne's a pro; there shouldn't have been anything sharp in the room with the prisoner. I think Jayne was playing the angles, as originally suggested, and gave it to him.

Challenge: _You_ empty a room of all things sharp. Not an easy chore. Go check the FBI concealed weapons lists if you don't believe me. Or a prison. It entails inflicting indignaties, the few are willing to, even while the torture someone. Early didn't manage it, and he is better than Jayne, and his victim was a sweet female mechanic, not a (presumably) well trained alliance mole.

That said, Jayne is a bad man.

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Monday, August 2, 2004 8:41 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:

Nope. Jayne was told the payoff, and asked he the question he needed, to see if it was worth it. "Would helping you mean turning on the captain?" "Yes it would." Jayne can not now lie to himself about it. Either he betrays the captain (by helping even a little bit), or he remains loyal. If he helped Dobson, it would have been all the way, not some weaselly little knife thing.

Hmmm, interesting point. Now . . .

Can Jayne rationalize giving LD a cutting tool? I think so.

Would LD let Jayne simply give him a cutting tool & leave? I don't think so. If LD thought Jayne had sold out, LD would insist that, @a minimum, Jayne cut him free immediately.

OK, I'm convinced. Jayne didn't leave LD the cutting implement.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Cold Blood, "Sisyphus"

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Monday, August 2, 2004 8:54 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:

Challenge: _You_ empty a room of all things sharp. Not an easy chore. Go check the FBI concealed weapons lists

The one on knives

http://datacenter.ap.org/wdc/fbiweapons.pdf

is 89 pages long, of which 86 pages display a concealable knife. Couldn't find the Add-to-Cart button.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Cold Blood, "Sisyphus"

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Monday, August 2, 2004 9:20 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by YT:
Couldn't find the Add-to-Cart button.

LOL

Is people like you that give the Internet a good name

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