Insanity or Genius - Fortune-teller or Deadly Killer ? by JaynezTown

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Originally posted by JaynezTown:
River what is she ? One second it's like Insanity the next she comes out with Genius -

Here's my take, I don't believe that River has any super natural powers or magical ways to see into the future however I think see can read people

I agree, though I will add the caveat that she hasn't SHOWN psychic or magical powers. (As I say elsewhere I am willing to be convinced).

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people like Michael Faraday, Einstein and Da Vinci

Try understanding the mind of Tesla sometime...

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The human body gives off many signals, our bodies produce heat, our vocals crate noise vibartions and voice, the brain produces electrical signals and the body emits sweat, smell and pheromones. Could an enhanced mind detect all these subtle signals or maybe a special mind mind be able to detect some persons inner thoughts ( and thoughts are just electrical pulses and signals ), perhaps a special brain could tune into these signals like a radio reciever can pick up stations and broadcasts, maybe she can read people's energy or feelings. I like the moment when she's eaves-dropping on a discussion.

Well, when she wants to know what people are saying about her in the dining room, she doesn't sit in her room and read their minds; she stands on the railing where she can overhear. That said I think we can currently make lie-detectors which don't need to be connected; they also aren't sensing anything we in theory can't.

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So is Simon's young little mei-mei River a well crafted killing machine

I think that you may be jumping to conclusions about the purpose of the blue-hands. Killing machine seems too small a goal for all that work. Early is almost as good and orders of magnitude cheaper.

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and can there ever be a mind-killer where some person can attack by using their mind rather than weapons or fists. Perhaps a transformed mind like rivers might be able to send pulses or signals outward to others, this might be like when you see a skilled opera singer sing out a note which has enough power to shatter a glass. Is this what the experimentation on River was supposed to create ?

She was pulling Jayne's leg. Even if she could kill him with her brain, she couldn't survive it, and she knows it.

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Trash and Out-of-Gas were also interesting, in Trash she can read Jayne and feels he is somewhat of a danger to them and can sense his feelings and experssions of guilt betrayal.

No, she tells Simon that Jayne has been scared of them since Ariel. She got it back then.

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in out of Gas it's like she's almost in tune with the Ship and what's going to happen next.

Really debatable. She says 'fire'. Simon thinks she is talking about the candles. It could easily be that she senses the fire before any of the others, but this is only AFTER the wierd noise has occurred.

Thank You Kindly.

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Saturday, August 7, 2004 3:02 PM

Well, I tend to think she's psychic, but let's just say I could be convinced otherwise. We've seen some pretty strong hints at it, and some evidence. There's the hospital scene where her brain lights up and she screams. And knowing Mal was making faces in Out of Gas, as well as Early's character. How do you explain that? Mind you, the evidence might not convince me in the real world but in Sci-fi ESP's a pretty standard thing, and thus pretty likely.

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Saturday, August 7, 2004 3:42 PM

Here's the crux of the question. Did you think she turned into the ship?

Thank You Kindly.

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Saturday, August 7, 2004 5:38 PM

I was pretty skeptical when she appeared to be the ship. During the commercials I was thinking "No, that can't be. Or could it? Wow, I wonder how that would affect the rest of the series." Anyways, River's "Dont make faces." comment looks like a pretty good example of psychic power. Either that or a lucky guess. But the way she knew Early's past just by seeing his ship seems pretty telling to me.

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Saturday, August 7, 2004 6:06 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

If she's in tune with the Ship or not is a real mystery, it's hard to say

On the subject of reading minds and looking into people's thoughts, you might say she has heightened perception and an almost uncanny to read people. Take signs like pupil dilation, emotional arousal and altered heart rate form the basis of lie-detector tests. Even unaided by machines, the best police interrogators can reportedly tell if someone is lying in most cases, maybe River is skilled like this. Take for example psychic performers or the techniques typically associated with psychics and mediums. When psychic perfromers ( those who don't have powers ) are trying to talk to a dead family member, they will often start by talking sketchy or incoherent..they might start off by saying ' I get a feeling of a old place, I'm somewhere far away, did something tragic happen'.. This is the start of their technique and they ( the psychic performers ) are trying to gather subtle information from the other person...for example if the performer says "8, the 8th month, 8-years, August" and somebody bites by saying "Dad died in August" and the guest thinks it was the spirtiual performer told her that fact rather than the other way around, this is how critics and skeptics view fortune reading. Is it possible that River's mind is so enhanced and altered that she can pick up on the subtle signals left off by people that only a well trained fortune teller might accomplish ? If this were the case it might explain how River seems to be able to read minds but without supernatural powers.

However there are other moments in the show, when she does stuff that implies that she really is a mind reader with some kind of magical power.

I wonder what those hands-of-blue folk wanted her for, and what was the purpose of the experiments on her mind

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Saturday, August 7, 2004 7:57 PM

DACUTE1

I believe it is the commentary of Objects in Space where Joss comments that the farthest he was willing to go Sci Fi wise was having River psychic. It seems the intention of the writers was to make her psychic, or as Mal says a reader, which really is a good term for it. She doesn't predict long term visions but there are things that she knows that she couldn't possibly know otherwise; ie (Safe) Ruby's mother going crazy and killing her sister. Somebody that was able to read situations would figure out that something tramatic happened in Ruby's life but the details? Not really. (Shindig) Sad little king of a sad little hill, she tears Badger apart and leaves him to dry. Again, some things would be able to look at a person and tell but she knows what Badger is and lays it out there. (Objects in Space) Same thing with Early, picture can tell a thousand words but it takes a little more than intuition to know that Early's mother was afraid of him. We actually see her reading thoughts during the beginning of OiS.

No, I don't think that River can literally kill someone with her brain, but she can kill you with a hand gun with her eyes closed in one shot. That's pretty scary to me.

A question that I have about her. During Shindig, how lucid was she? Did she pick up on the conversation about needing a distraction, and is that why she made her speech?

The question of what the Alliance, or Blue Sun as we're seeing, wants with her, was planning on doing with her is still a mystery, but I do agree that I don't think it's turning her into an assasin, she's too precious for that. The only thing I can come up with is for her to become psychic, she was already brilliant, I can't imagine why else they would mess with her perceptions so much. And why else would Blue Sun be so sensitive to government talking to her? So she wouldn't read them? Just thought.

ooo Becki

Kaylee: Wash, tell me I'm pretty
Wash: Were I unwed I would take you in a manly fashion
Kaylee: 'Cause I'm pretty?
Wash: 'Cause you're pretty

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Saturday, August 7, 2004 10:16 PM

Hi.

I had comments about River's psychic powers, and what I thought was evidence for them, on the Companion Powers thread. I might repeat some of them here, which is, of course, a better place for it.

However, an important fact that we must remember: whatever River's captives were doing to her wasn't finished yet. River is only a partly-done whatever. Simon pulled her out too soon.

The Real Me

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 5:54 AM

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However there are other moments in the show, when she does stuff that implies that she really is a mind reader with some kind of magical power.

Yeah, while much of the evidence can be dismissed, I think there's certainly a strong implication of her psychicness. However, I don't think her power is magical or spiritual in any way. I think it was Jasonzzz who was explaining to me how he didn't think River could have any ability beyond super-logic, as this was a sci-fi show without any mysticism. I disagree. Oftentimes I refer to her power as ESP, as is more science-sounding and it's easier to type. There are psychics in Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate, so I really think this is as grounded in science as artificial gravity or FTL travel. It's a lot like in Minority Report. Anyway, that's my take on it.

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 6:15 AM

There are quite a few people who dismiss psychic powers as magic, as if River needs to light candles and stir vile ingredients in a caldron in order to read minds.

I don't EVER recall Mr Spock of Star Trek or Lyta Alexander from Babylon 5 doing such a thing. In such settings, psychic powers are seen as a natural ability of some minds, an ability that is not understood in the time of us, the viewers.

Mental powers, ESP, psychic abilities, whatever you like to call them, have been as much a background element of science fiction as faster-than-light travel (which some argue does not exist in Firefly) or artificial gravity (which most certainly DOES exist in Firefly).

To me, all of these things are equally wonderous.

But none forces me to accept a two inch tall magical pixie with dragonfly wings as a member of the crew.

The Real Me

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 7:07 AM

Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make. On the other hand, that doesn't mean it's always sacrilege to mix sci-fi and fantasy. I wouldn't mind seeing a science fiction-action-fantasy-western. "Gorram gnomes can build a Class-2 hyperdrive but they can't understand mithril-tipped bullets of acid!"

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LtNOWIS:
Anyways, River's "Dont make faces." comment looks like a pretty good example of psychic power.

Well if that's the standard then I'M psychic. I have done that exact thing with people I was talking with on the phone.

Cool.

Thank You Kindly!!

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 11:31 AM

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There are psychics in Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate, so I really think this is as grounded in science as artificial gravity or FTL travel.

Huh? you mean grounded in Science FICTION?

There are also aliens in Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate.

Certainly there is science fiction mind reading, as well as magical mind reading, from a fiction point of view. Both are taken as being something more than being extremely intuitive and perceptive. I have seen people do the sorts of things River does, and don't believe any of them are psychic.

If she can read minds so well, why does she need to stand on the railing to eavesdrop on the conversation going on in the dining room?

Thank You Kindly.

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 12:26 PM

ANNIK

Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:

Here's the crux of the question. Did you think she turned into the ship?

Thank You Kindly.

Absolutely. I spend most Thursdays as my house.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 12:29 PM

ANNIK

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
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Originally posted by JaynezTown:

Anyone have any ideas on the blue Sun connection, what experiments happened or who these two by 2 , hands-of-blue people are ?

I subscribe to a huge Government/Military/Corporate conspiracy...
(just like in RL! LOL)

Shhhh! Don't let them hear you!

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 1:07 PM

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There are psychics in Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate, so I really think this is as grounded in science as artificial gravity or FTL travel.

Huh? you mean grounded in Science FICTION?

There are also aliens in Star Wars, Star Trek, and Stargate.

The key word is as.

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If she can read minds so well, why does she need to stand on the railing to eavesdrop on the conversation going on in the dining room?

Her mind-reading/precognition isn't willful. She has no control over it. Or at least not much.

I'm telling you, in 257 days, you'll admit you were wrong.

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 1:27 PM

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Well if that's the standard then I'M psychic. I have done that exact thing with people I was talking with on the phone.

Yeah, I said it could've been a guess. Her knowledge of Early's life is pretty telling though. Unless he kept a journal.

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 9:38 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

Redundant, so removed

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Sunday, August 8, 2004 11:09 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

I've wondered if River can kill with her Brain, maybe she can maybe not. Also consider that moment in Ariel, when those hand-of-blue people come along and the guards die a horrible death yet the hands of blue are not affected.

Now think about more simple matters for a second, how a man can wear a coat to sheild himslf from rain/cold, or how a person can get anti-venom to protect from snake poison, or how folk with sensitive skin use lotion to stop UV sun rays.

Is this the kind of Reason they didn't die, maybe their minds have been played with also so the Hands-of-Blue folk aren't hurt by it. So the question is : Would a weapon like the ones the Hands of Blue used affect River, she did seem pretty frightened didn't she ?

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Monday, August 9, 2004 9:25 AM

Well even if she was immune, they could kill Jayne and Simon and drag her back to the academy. So I don't think her fear means anything. That said, they might not have finished immunizing her before Simon rescued her, and they might not have intended to anyways. We don't really know their intentions, so it's hard to discuss.

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Monday, August 9, 2004 9:33 AM

KNIBBLET

Ahhhh, but what of her reacting to Book being shot in "Safe"?

Interesting thing for me is: She didn't scream when Book was shot, rather, she screamed when Mal saw that Book had been shot. hmmmmmmmmmm

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 7:37 PM

Here are events during the Firefly series that I believe demonstrate that River has some kind of psychic powers, an ability to sense things that others cannot, or even to read minds. It seems clear to me that River has no control over these abilities, as things seem to come to her unbidden and she does not seem able to call upon them reliably. Also, there is the problem that her confused mental state makes it difficult for her to interpret her data correctly. In any case, I agree that some of these events can be ascribed to high intelligence or heightened senses, but not all of them.

I will go episode by episode. Most of these are from memory, some from research. I might add to this or clarify things after re-watching the episodes in the future.

SERENITY
Nothing that I remember.

THE TRAIN JOB
Nothing that I remember.

BUSHWACKED
River heard screams (in the past) from the ship. She “followed the voices” and came aboard the derelict to find the dead bodies. When the survivor wakes up in the Serenity infirmary, laughing, River in Inara’s shuttle wakes up screaming.

SHINDIG
When River talks to Badger using his accent, she seems to know a lot about him. That he’s from Dyton Colony might be revealed by the accent. But she comes up with other information about Badger. He left home early, doing grift jobs. He spent time in the lockdown, but less than he claims. He’s a sad little king of a sad little hill. Badger seems impressed with River. If she just fed him a bunch of made-up nonsense, I would expect him to comment. On the other hand, if she hit dead on, I would expect Badger to be more surprised than he was, so I’m not sure about this one.

SAFE
River is startled around the time that Book is shot, even though Book is out of sight and a long distance away. When she and Simon are with the hill people, River knows the tale of Ruby, the little mute girl. About her mother going crazy and killing her other daughter, Ruby’s sister, right before Ruby’s eyes. The nurse is so happy when she thinks Ruby has finally talked, but River confirms that she did not talk. Unless River is lying about Ruby talking, “voice got scared away”, how could she get the details of the story out of the mute girl? It has been argued that any psychologist could pull such a terrible story out of a child, but I remain skeptical. I have no doubt that many people could tell that the child had been traumatized, but could River get the specific details about the crazy mother by carefully observing exactly what sort of blank stare was on the child’s face? I don’t think so. Later, when the town wants to burn River as a witch, the town’s leader was trying to be reasonable at first. But when River says things that imply she knows about the current leader doing away with the previous leader, this current leader gets a strong reaction of confusion and alarm on his face, then hits her and goes along with the witch-burning plan with gusto. She clearly struck a sore point with him, and he wanted her dead. “He was sick. But he was getting better.
You were alone in the room with him.”

OUR MRS REYNOLDS
This is in the deleted scene, but the intro said that it was deleted due to time considerations, implying that the content was okay. River says of Saffron: “She’s a thief.” Saffron produces a small food packet, and says, “Didn’t know she saw me.” To which River replies, “Didn’t.” I think that this has nothing to do with the food packet. I think that River senses that Saffron is a thief, a con artist.

JAYNESTOWN
Nothing that I remember.

OUT OF GAS
Just before the blast of flame hits Zoe, River whispers, “Fire.” Precognition? Maybe only heightened senses.

ARIEL
At the end of the diagnostic brain scan, River screams. “They come out of the Black. They come when you call.” Is this a reference to the Blue Hands coming due to Jayne’s betrayal, Jayne’s “call”? River knows that a patient is about to be in danger of death from poor treatment, and that Simon can save him. When Jayne is leading them to the trap, River pleads, “I don’t want to go back.” When the Blue Hands start to come near, she is in distress. “They’re here!” Then, “Two by two, hands of blue.” River knows about their presence without seeing them. When River, Simon, and Jayne are running away from the Blue Hands, she knows the way to run toward safety, to where Mal is. “Almost there, almost there, there!” she says, leading them to the very door behind which Mal and Zoe will be standing.

WAR STORIES
River’s uncanny accuracy with the pistol could be because she was aiming at the opponents’ minds, but she probably just used mathematics to aim at them. She had to take a peek, after all.

TRASH
River knows that Jayne betrayed Simon and her in “Ariel”, and that he is afraid that this will get out.

THE MESSAGE
When she lies down on the coffin, I think that River is sensing Tracy’s living mind.

HEART OF GOLD
Nothing that I remember.

OBJECTS IN SPACE

Coming next...

The Real Me

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 7:39 PM

OBJECTS IN SPACE

There are quite a few clues in this episode.

Near the beginning, River is lying in bed with voices going through her head. Then one voice startles her awake. It says, “We’re all just floating.” It is Early’s voice. If River is NOT psychic, how could she know Early’s voice before he even gets aboard Serenity? I think that River had been picking up the thoughts of people around her, and was startled by an unfamiliar mind. In fact, I think that she feels so threatened by Early’s mind that she goes looking for a gun. She does this in the half-dazed way that she does most things.

Next, we see River wandering among the crew. In all cases, they seem to ignore her, except for making jarring statements that are unrelated to the conversations or activities that just precedes and just follows the statements. That is, a pair of the crew might be joking or laughing, there is a jarring discontinuity where they each deliver their “Inner Thought” to River, then the pair go back to laughing AS IF THE INNER THOUGHT STATEMENT NEVER HAPPENED. This happens with the Book/Jayne pair and the Simon/Kaylee pair. I am convinced that River is reading their minds during this time, learning some bit of inner turmoil of each character. Some have commented that each Inner Thought might be the person’s deepest regret. Kaylee does not say anything, but the expression on her face when she looks at River is very odd for her. I think Kaylee’s expression reveals her uneasy thoughts about River since the events in War Stories. Okay, Zoe and Wash are too busy to have any Inner Thoughts at that time, but it is clear that River really gets into THAT experience, as well.

As I mentioned, in all cases, the crew members seem to ignore River. There are some characters, Simon and Book for instance, that I believe would at least acknowledge her and say hello. And Mal and Inara would be unlikely to miss seeing River, and equally unlikely to continue their conversation about Inara’s departure in River’s presence. I believe one of two things is happening. Either River is somehow clouding their minds so that they cannot see her, or River’s mind or mental perception is wandering among the crew, but her body is elsewhere. It seems that River herself does not understand what is going on.

EDITED 8-21-2004: Also, Simon is so self-conscious that I cannot believe that he would sit with Kaylee's legs on him while ANYONE, even River, walked by. He would get all flustered, push Kaylee's legs away, and get her upset again. No, I don't think that he perceived River at all.

I suppose that all of the “Inner Thought” time can be dismissed as a simple hallucination on River’s part, but then I would have to question why Joss went to so much trouble to get the characters to say everything they said. That is, these scenes seem too loaded with information to be dismissed as merely River’s wacky imagination. If there was nothing substantial to the Inner Thought scenes, River’s madness might better be done through a disjointed and bizarre River-in-Wonderland scene that clearly had no point. The Inner Thoughts seemed to have a point.

Anyway, soon after (though the passage of time seems odd around this time in the show), we see River in the cargo bay picking up a stick which “turns into” River holding a gun. This alarms the crew, who suddenly seem to be around her.

Earlier, I suggested that the threat of Early prompted her to seek a weapon. On a different thread, someone else suggested that River was tuning into Early’s violent thoughts and was beginning to think like him. In either case, she wanted a gun.

With everyone so freaked out about River having a gun, and Mal taking the gun away, River gets so upset and confused that she did not remember why she wanted the gun at all. In fact, “wanting the gun” in such a situation might have been part of her subconscious programming from the Academy. “It’s crowded in here!” from River as she runs off. I take this to be referring to her own mind.

But anyway, how did she get the gun? Later, Jayne and Mal are talking. Both admit that it is Jayne’s gun, but Jayne protests that he doesn’t leave his hardware lying about. I believe him. Guns are a serious business for Jayne, and considering the butcher knife incident, I could see him wanting to carefully account for each one. There is talk that there was no way for her to get one of Jayne’s guns without the combination to a certain gun locker. I think River got the combination and took a gun. Where did she get that combination? I think she pulled it out of Jayne’s mind. The fact that it was fully loaded and safety off tells me that she was prepared to use it.

During the dinner table discussion, based on things that they have seen, both Mal and Book are willing to believe that River is a “reader”. I don’t recall exactly what Mal said. Something about, “she knows things that she can’t know.” Enough things have happened, perhaps even things off camera, to convince them both.

Joss even said in the commentary that River was psychic. That making her psychic was as far as he would go; that he wouldn’t let her turn into the ship.

Later, when River is constructing her plan over the radio, she says, “Don’t make faces,” to Mal just after he makes a face.

Deeper in the plan, River gets into Early’s head well enough, and knows enough about him as she taunts him, that he is clearly upset, confused, and perhaps on the verge of a breakdown. Some of it may have been prompted by the picture, but I think she gave Early a lot of detail that a picture would not tell her.

Well, that’s about it.

The Real Me

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Wednesday, August 11, 2004 4:26 AM

KNIBBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
HEART OF GOLD Nothing that I remember.

What about, "It's starting." 3 seconds before Petaleen realizes the baby has decided it's time to check out of the womb with a view?

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Wednesday, August 11, 2004 7:07 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

There are many points that might hint at River being psychic such as knowing Jayne was going to betray, and so forth..so maybe she can read minds

but was she a trained Assassin ? it's hard to say

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Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:33 AM

AZIRAPHALE

"time to check out of the womb with a view."

Bwahahahahahahaha!

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Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:39 AM

SHINYSEVEN

To me, it sounds like Mal says that River is a Reader--i.e., it's a job title, like CPA--he isn't happy about having a telepath around, but he doesn't have any trouble accepting telepathy as a phenomenon.

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Thursday, August 12, 2004 4:17 AM

Thanks, Knibblet,

You are right. I forgot the baby scene in HOG.

The Real Me

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Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:28 AM

GRIMLAKIN

River is the next level. Blue sun created the men with hands of blue. They are trained to serve and use tools that kill the mind. River is the next model. The next best thing to replace them. She is the ultimate information gathering agent that needs no tools of attack. For she is her own tool.

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 6:44 PM

This thread contains my thesis on why I think River is psychic.

The Real Me

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Friday, September 10, 2004 3:55 AM

After re-watching Shindig (at Fireguardian's Shindig!) I am of the opinion that during River's time talking in Badger's accent, Badger looked apprehensive, nervous, taken aback. I suspect that at least some of River's points about him were on the mark.

The Real Me

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Friday, September 10, 2004 5:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
After re-watching Shindig (at Fireguardian's Shindig!) I am of the opinion that during River's time talking in Badger's accent, Badger looked apprehensive, nervous, taken aback. I suspect that at least some of River's points about him were on the mark.

Yup, she clearly nailed Badger.

What could she have known? Accent, basics about his world, etc. would all be common knowledge. I might do something similar about Australia. His status as a crook, the whole sad little king thing, the talks too much, are easy to figure either from crew knowledge of Badger, or from the current situation. Only the bit about 'less [time] than you claim', is a stretch. My understanding is that this is a common practice in criminal circles, combined with his height, it is not a difficult guess (not that I think River is guessing).

Thank You Kindly

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Friday, September 10, 2004 4:33 PM