Is Mal a good captain? by shambleau

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Is Mal a good captain?

POSTED BY: SHAMBLEAU
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:04
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VIEWED: 2385
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Monday, August 9, 2004 4:16 PM

I've been thinking about it, and I'm of two minds. In most ways, hell yes he's good. As far as knowing how to get the most out of his crew and engendering loyalty, he's aces. By the end of the series, I would have done whatever Mal wanted me to, if I'd been on the crew, including risking my life for him. I've watched a lot of movies and tv shows and I can't think of another one where I'd willingly put my life on the line, even hypothetically.

But the way he blew off Kaylee's concerns about the catalyzer? Stupidity. His lying to Zoe when she asked if there was a problem with the Alliance goods that he'd just noticed were imprinted? Betrayal of trust. His reluctance to even consider going to the Alliance cruiser when Book was hurt until Inara called him on it? Crew endangerment. (And yes, Book's not strictly crew, but he's close enough).

I'm not coming up with other examples at the moment and there aren't probably too many anyway. Maybe his decision to stay and help Nandi, which pretty much committed the rest of the crew, whether they wanted to or not. True, no one objected, but they would have felt guilty if they'd decided to stay on the ship while Mal fought alone, so he was pressuring them indirectly.

I actually like it that Mal's not the bestest cap'n ever though. I'd be bored out of my skull.

shambleau

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Monday, August 9, 2004 5:05 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

The thing about 'lying' to Zoe mmight be hyping it a bit. He only tells folks what they NEED to know,and when they need to know it. Like when Jayne asks whats going on when he comes back from the ship in Bushwhacked. Letting others know that they were boobietrapped and had to take care of that would have detracted from the mission of laying the other crew to rest and salvaging the goods. I agree, there are times he takes this to the extreme - The Message , but he always has it figured out.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 3:00 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I think Mal is a great captain. He always puts the crew and ship first. He won't leave anyone behind, and he will fight to protect anyone on his crew, even those he is not necessarily fond of at the moment.

Mal of course is a born leader, and that means he will make the tough decisions, whether or not his crew always agree w/ him. He will act like the hardnose if that is what it takes to keep his people focused to pull them through a tough spot (his verbal exchange and subsequent hands on Wash in Out of Gas), he will tell them only what he feels they need to know to cut down on concern and stress (his hiding the fact the cargo was marked in Serenity), and he will expect his crew to follow his lead without question (his exchange w/ Simon in "Bushwhacked" & his dealings w/ Tracy in "The Message").

There is a reason why the crew went after Mal despite the odds in War Stories. They love him, and they would die for him, just like they know he would do for them.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 4:44 AM

KNIBBLET

Mal is captain. His job is to keep his ship and crew intact out in the black.

As for HoG, the crew had and already made their decision BEFORE going down to the moon.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 5:01 AM

SHINYSEVEN

I think he's a little bit like the Wizard of Oz ("a very bad wizard...but [in some ways] a very good man."

One reason "Trash" is so effective is that the previous episodes built up the expectation that Mal is *always* going to get his ass kicked, and, as Zoe says, there's more than one time that his brain is missing and his previous plans have NOT been cause for reassurance.

But you couldn't ask for greater loyalty, commitment or devotion to whatever cause he's currently espousing--once, his cause; now, his crew.

In fact if he had a sign over his cabin it would probably say "Mal's Cafe Americain."

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 7:55 AM

VELOXI

I think he's a very effective captain. No captain is perfect, but he inspires loyalty and keeps the ship running. For example, in Serenity, I believe he kept the fact of the traced alliance cargo to himself to keep the crew from worrying and to keep them focused on their work, rather than worrying about the cargo. Furthermore, there are two moments in the series, for me, highlight what an effective captain Mal is.

In "Bushwacked", after they leave the derelict, the alarms go off. Jayne starts talking about reavers. Mal tells Jayne and the others to store the cargo, even though Jayne correctly states that it might not matter. Why does Mal do this? I believe it's to keep the crew focused on their work, keep them from being afraid, and to keep them occupied while Mal himself runs off to worry about the alarm. This way of keeping the crew occupied and focused is a very effective way of maintaining order and clarity in times of crisis.

Secondly, while "Out of Gas" has some great captainy moments, the best, IMO, is when they first encounter the fire while in the dining area. After Zoe is hit by the fireball, Mal immediately tells Jayne to seal off the lower decks, runs to the bridge, and takes care of the fire by opening the cargo bay doors. This focus on the overall well-being of the ship and the entire crew, rather than focusing on the one wounded member of the crew, was effective in saving everyone in the end.

Overall, Mal is an excellent example of a captain who has his priorities in the right place. He cares about his ship and crew before all else, and that comes out repeatedly in his actions and dialogue. It's this focus on his crew and their safety and well-being that inspires such loyalty.

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:01 AM

SHAMBLEAU

since Mal told everyone that they should get the hell out of Dodge in HOG and not try to fight Rance Burgess, and then agreed to do it anyway, while admitting it was stupid, the crew should have had the right to re-evaluate their decision to commit.

And here I guess, I have a bone to pick with the writer, who wasn't a regular and never wrote for the series again. This show is about characterization. Yes, most of the crew would have gone along with whatever Mal decided. But, you're telling me that Simon, Mr. Over-Protective, wouldn't have tried to get River back to the ship and maybe himself as well? Or that Jayne, who'd already had some whores, taking away or at least lessening his one motivation for participating, wouldn't have either griped about the useless danger they were putting themselves in or attempted to back out?

shambleau

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 9:32 AM

DIEGO

I think the one issue Mal is most likely to get into trouble on is his holding information back. I imagine he picked this habit up from his military days when his soldiers would do anything he ordered without questioning.

With his present crew, this doesn't always work out. Sure Mal is a great leader with tons of charisma and obvious concern for his crew. It's those features which get the motley assortment of individuals to follow him despite their own myriad viewpoints and self-interest. However, there are limits to their obedience (excepting Zoe here of course), and he has pushed that envelope almost to disaster on more than one occasion.

The worst situation was in "The Message". Sure, I found what's-his-face to be an annoying character, but the kid didn't have to die. If he'd shared the plan he and Book was cooking up then the kid wouldn't have panicked and they wouldn't have had to shoot him. (sorry for blanking on the character's name)

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 10:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Diego, I agree w/ you about Tracy and 'The Message'. Why didn't Mal just TELL him about the plan? My thoughts on why Mal did things the way he did...

1. Tracy served with Mal. They at least spent time together in the same unit, but who can tell to what extent Tracy served UNDER Mal. Point is, Mal is now the Capt of his ship. He gives the orders, Tracy is expected to follow them. If only as a show of respect for his former military superiors who obliged themselves to help a long lost 'buddy'.

2. Mal didn't have time to explain things to Tracy. He probably was still formulating exactly how things were gonna play out when Tracy stepped in.

Those are the 2 main reasons I can think of , but either way, Mal ended up doing just what Tracy had asked him to do at the start. Only it was Mal that carried the bullet w/ Tracy's name on it.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 11:52 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

I'm going to nitpick here a bit. All opinions my own - Shambleau, none of this is directed to you personally.

Quote:
Originally posted by shambleau:
Since Mal told everyone that they should get the hell out of Dodge in HOG and not try to fight Rance Burgess, and then agreed to do it anyway, while admitting it was stupid, the crew should have had the right to re-evaluate their decision to commit.

Unless they already re-evaluated at the same time he did and agreed with him. They were there, they heard all the words. If they had something to say about it, they would have. They certainly have before. In fact they may have in the original shooting script and it got edited out for time.

Quote:
Originally posted by shambleau:
And here I guess, I have a bone to pick with the writer, who wasn't a regular and never wrote for the series again.

And HoG was where exactly in the series line up? Can't say what never happened with a series that didn't have a full life span.

Quote:
Originally posted by shambleau:
This show is about characterization. Yes, most of the crew would have gone along with whatever Mal decided. But, you're telling me that Simon, Mr. Over-Protective, wouldn't have tried to get River back to the ship and maybe himself as well?

Simon's also a doctor. He had an oath to uphold and a girl having her first baby out in the middle of no and where. On the other hand, if the Alliance had been involved, it might have turned differently, but they weren't. It was just some backwater hick and his cronies. Part of Simon's character is that he doesn't really know what goes on in the black - he's only heard stories about how bad it can be, and he's only just now differentiating between fact and fiction. The boy's got a lot to learn on the social aspect of the border planets. Being a doctor is something he *knows* and he doesn't shirk it. I have a bone to pick with the writer that didn't have Mal putting a gun to Simon's head back in Serenity when Simon refused to treat Kaylee, but that's just me.

Quote:
Originally posted by shambleau:
Or that Jayne, who'd already had some whores, taking away or at least lessening his one motivation for participating, wouldn't have either griped about the useless danger they were putting themselves in or attempted to back out?

The same Jayne that griped about getting Mal and Wash off the Skyplex in "War Stories" and then showed up with Vera anyway? That Jayne? Okay, I'll admit the writer left the griping part out, but Jayne doesn't strike me as the "satiable" type. If saving the Heart of Gold meant he'd get more sex then by all means! Let's fight a useless battle where they're hopelessly outnumbered!

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 2:31 PM

CORNCOBB

Mal is a great Captain in many ways. Most importantly, he is fiercely loyal to, and protective of, his crew. Remember the moment in 'Safe' where Simon asks Mal why he came back? Mal said: "You're on my crew. why are we still talking about this?"
He's made some questionable decisions, but then what captain hasn't? I'd prefer Mal to any of the Star Trek captains. In fact Mal's fallibility makes him a more endearing character. It makes him more human.
As for Jaynes involement in the Heart of Gold firefight: that guy wouldn't miss a firefight if you paid him to (okay, maybe if you paid him to. "I got respect. I'm just sayin': gold!")
Anyway, the HoG gunfight was probably the most funs he's ever had. he spent the whole time in a room with a hooker and lots of guns. Jayne's idea of heaven

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 6:36 PM

LTNOWIS

Posted by Channain:

Quote:
I have a bone to pick with the writer that didn't have Mal putting a gun to Simon's head back in Serenity when Simon refused to treat Kaylee, but that's just me.

Well, than Simon would've agreed to be shot and doom Kaylee to less awesome medical care, in order to save River. Than opening the crate wouldn't be finding out what he'd kill for, it'd be what he'd die for. Which would still kind of make sense. But didn't Joss write Serenity?
Another bone about HoG. Wouldn't Jayne need an STD test before "getting sexed?" Unless they're immune to all STDs, like companions.
About the catylyzer, Kaylee didn't say "If we don't have this, we might all die, and should stay away from little-used routes." She merely said, "This'd be nice to have," and Mal responded, "Too bad we're poor." If they had realized how much trouble they'd be in, they would have acquired a new compression coil.

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 7:13 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Corncobb:
I'd prefer Mal to any of the Star Trek captains. In fact Mal's fallibility makes him a more endearing character. It makes him more human.

Mal's not even in the same league as the Star Trek captains, IMO. There's a darker side to him that has always been fabricated in ST. There really isn't a lot of comparison between Firefly and Star Trek, frankly. They fly through space, they land on planets...yeah, I think that's about it.

Quote:
Originally posted by LtNowis
As for Jaynes involement in the Heart of Gold firefight: that guy wouldn't miss a firefight if you paid him to (okay, maybe if you paid him to. "I got respect. I'm just sayin': gold!")

Anyway, the HoG gunfight was probably the most funs he's ever had. he spent the whole time in a room with a hooker and lots of guns. Jayne's idea of heaven

Now THAT's what I'm talking about! That's the Jayne we all know, love and occasionally get the heebie jeebies over.

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 9:17 PM

PIRATEJENNY

hmmmm I've thought about that a few times myself and all in all I would have to say for the most part yes he is..because he cares and his crew is like family, Mal is a survior..he doesn't know how to give up..not on himself and not on the people around him..for instance when Jayne sold out Simon and River in Ariel...Mal automatically knew what Jayne did.. he could have killed him for his betrayal or got rid of him but he didn't..he's sees deeper then just the surface he knew that Jayne was sorry really sorry and that meant somthing to mal...

Mal is flawed and he knows it..and the greatest thing about him is that he tries not to judge or judge to harshly of others

Joss said he wanted Mal to be this lost charactor , a closed off person a mal content..I like that I don't want them to soften him up to much( if the show ever aires again) it just makes him more intresting

yeah I guess all in all he is a good Captain but more importantly he's a very human Captian

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Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:04 AM

SHAMBLEAU

Channain, I don't take conversation/debate personally (well, usually). I enjoy the back-and-forth a lot. It's like swordfighting without the unpleasant getting stabbed part when you lose! It actually sharpens (sorry) my appreciation and understanding to engage in it. I thought you made some great points. But I've still got a couple of ripostes. En garde!

The Jayne of War Stories is also the Jayne of The Train Job, who wouldn't join in the fight that Mal started. We didn't see what forced him in and it may have been just the pure joy of the fight, I agree. But he WAS reluctant at first and I still think there should have been initial reluctance in HOG too. I'll buy that he would have joined in.

As for Simon, his ignorance of how bad it can get out on the rim should be far behind him by the time HOG takes place. But, even if it isn't, Mal states explicitly that it's a bad idea to stay there and tries to talk everybody into leaving. That's when his protectiveness towards River should kick in. But not a peep.

His priorities are always River first, then medicine. He left Osirus and his career for her. He was willing to let Kaylee die for her. He could have taken the pregnant girl back to the ship with him, if he wanted to take care of her, while simultaneously keeping River safe. Since they didn't know their presence had been betrayed, that would have seemed completely sensible at the time. I just think that it was more in character for Simon to bring it up in some form or another as an option than not.

Oh, speaking of the ship, that's another mark on the bad captain side. No guard on the ship? Or at least not locked down? Tsk, Tsk. Careless.
.

shambleau

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