The Great Jayne Debate! by kef

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
Idefix
and sorry for bad english. it isn't my native language.

Your English is excellent. Truly.

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Monday, November 25, 2002 8:38 AM

Oops! Double post.

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Monday, November 25, 2002 8:50 AM

BOBKNAPTOR

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
and on my second watching after reading this long thread I noticed something: Jayne said to Simon there was a change of plan and they had to meet out the back in 5 minutes. and when they came out the back door the feds waited there for them.
and then later on when Mal had locked Jayne in the airlock he asked him what he was doing at the back door. and concluded from that that Jayne had called the feds.

Since I had no new episode to watch on Friday, I watched the only episode I have on tape... Ariel. And I noticed the same thing you did. I actually meant to get on here and say something about it on Saturday, but real life got in the way. :)

The conclusion I came to was that at the moment they left the exam room, he was ABSOLUTELY going to turn them in. If he ever changed his mind after that, I can't say. But the "change of plans" he announced had nothing at all to do with Mal or avoiding the feds, and everything to do with turning the Tams in.

______________
The next time you decide to stab me in the back have the guts to do it to my face.

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Monday, November 25, 2002 8:57 AM

EVANS

To Idefix: Your English is fine.

Yes, I too re-watched the episode, and noted the "Five minutes," "out the back." If Jayne had changed his mind about turning in the siblings, he could have continued with Mal's original plan (up to the point that the Feds, robbed of their living booty, would interfere).

m.
------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

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Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:32 PM

MOPBUCKET

Make this the next Poll Question darn it!

Just please don't use the pseudo-word unbetray. Maybe it's the anal english teacher in me coming to the fore but it's driving me NUTZ!

Come on, poll question! Who's with me!?!?!?

It's a bird, it's a plane...
No it's a guy in blue tights and a red cape...

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Wednesday, November 27, 2002 11:54 AM

MORWYND

Look, forget all this stuff about front vs back, it's irrelevant, because we have no clue where Jayne was expecting the Feds to be waiting.

The real question that matters, is WHY did Jayne rush them out early? What makes the most sense, given what we are shown?

The "Jayne is an unrepentant bastard" camp seems to think it was a calculated move so he would have time to collect his reward, and rejoin the Serenity crew. Personally, I think this is a ridiculous assertion. If you turned in a pair of highly wanted fugitives, would you expect to be able to collect your massive reward (from a large beaurocracy, no less) and be on your way in a mere 15 minutes? I don't think so. Also, if Jayne suddenly became "very wealthy" as he expected to, do you think he would go back to being hired help with a ragtag outfit like Serenity? Again, highly doubtful. This was a one way ticket for Jayne. You don't sell out your crewmates to the authorities and then go back to work with them.

I'm not saying the above scenario is IMPOSSIBLE, only that it's a rather large assumption (that he needed the extra time for himself), which is NOT supported or suggested by anything in the script. And this is a very well written show, I think they would have addressed such an important point.

So all of this brings us back to... WHY would he rush them out? What is the simplest, most reasonable explanation? Why unnecessarily arouse suspicions by changing plans? Surely the arrest would've gone smoothly if they had stayed the full time, and Jayne would not look suspicious, since he was just following the plan. BUT... Jayne changed the plan. He KNEW this would make it look later like he had advance knowledge of the Feds. (Don't you think Simon will ask him later why the plan was changed? I think this will be discussed in an upcoming episode, unless it's cancelled of course) He deliberately blew his own cover, so to speak, in order to try and get them out before the Feds were set up... even though he probably suspected it was too late.

Once they were caught, he saw a way to save his own skin and make a bundle, so of course he tried to play along with the original deal. Just because he had a change of heart doesn't mean he suddenly became the noble "one for all, all for one, go down with the ship" type. Jayne still comes first to Jayne, and probably always will. That's his character. Self serving. But not heartless. Once he was doublecrossed by the Feds, he came to realize they would have a better chance of escape if they worked together, as it proved to. River's comment makes perfect sense in this context. No Christmas (reward), for anybody. Only coal (death).

And at the end, in the airlock. Mal was going to kill him, but didn't when Jayne asked Mal to lie for him. Why? Because this was the ONE thing that Jayne could've possibly said that convinced Mal of the one truth that mattered: That Jayne was TRULY ashamed of what he did.

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Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:28 PM

TUPPENCE

Morwynd, I think you have it exactly right!

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Wednesday, November 27, 2002 10:47 PM

PERSEPHONE

Adam answered!!!

Quote:
From: ADAM_BALDWIN 2:36 am
To: ALL (1 of 3)

2499.1

Happy Thanksgiving to all:
Apparently there has been an ongoing debate with regard to Jayne's "unbetrayal" of River and Simon in "Ariel"... Well, I asked our fearless leader J.W. yesterday if I could put this confusion to rest. He said, "Go ahead monkey, dance for the geeks!"
So, I hereby offer to all (with a notable nod to I.L.J. from Fireflyfans.net), the official poop: Jayne never unbetrayed Simon and River, he simply redouble-crossed the low down dirty double-crossing fed who was intending to keep Jayne's "RE-WARD" for himself.
Jayne is a mercenary after all, but he's our mercenary, and that's why I love the petulant child, "box-dropping man-ape gone wrong, thrillin' he-roics thing," that he is... A work in progress.
I hope this has been cared about. 'Cuz I'm a powerful slow typer!
Peace,
A.B.

oh happy day...and he even used the word "unbetray," hehe. The actors on this show are just too cool...

http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages/?msg=2499.1

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Thursday, November 28, 2002 5:07 AM

Sorry, but it just doesn't matter. Asking the people who made the show about something that's actually unknown and mysterious is one thing, and this is another. What was shown was plain, simple, and straightforward. When Andromeda gave us "Dance of the Mayflies", one of the writers assured everyone that it wasn't a possession episode. When it actually went on the air, it was an obvious possession episode. Did ANYONE believe that it wasn't? No, because it was. Actions speak louder than words, so you have to believe the creation itself, whether or not it conflicts with what the creator SAYS (s)he created.

There is exactly ONE possible reason for Jayne to rush them out. He's already arranged for the capture, we know that. It's going to happen no matter what. Changing the plans means changing the plans! There are no two ways about this; you don't try to sneak someone out of a trap if you still intend them to get caught, you just sit back and watch the trap spring on them. This is a point that has been repeated a few times now by people who see what was plainly, simply, straightforwardly presented on screen for what it is, and has YET to be in any way explained away (or even an attempt made) by those insisting on something else.

Believing the actor who played Jayne saying that what was shown didn't really happen is like believing Harrison Ford if he were to say that Han Solo didn't really shoot the bounty hunter under the table at Mos Eisley, or believing Sean connery if he were to say that James Bond never actually ordered a shaken-not-stirred drink. He just plain DID and that's all there is to it!

(And it's even worse when the creator of the show in question seems to have a reputation for messing with people's minds just because he thinks it's funny...)

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Thursday, November 28, 2002 5:22 AM

IDEFIX

does that sound weird, or is it just me?

sorry, I don't say you're weird, never would. but if JW said Jayne never wanted to unbetray the Tams and AB posts that, saying nothing about objecting to it. than that has to be true, doesn't it? seems to me they wanted us to know the true intend of their work and that should mean something. it does to me.

maybe you should ask why he rushed them out the back, when he should have made plans for the feds meeting them up the front later? maybe they know of a reason. if it is good written TV there should be a reason for it. they just didn't tell us. maybe it was cut from the EP.

but if you don't really want to know what they intended to show us but believe that it's right what you interpret into what they showed us then believe it and be happy. seems to me like Book saying to River the bible's not about making sense. seemed a bit stupid to me that comment. everything should be about making sense, or else it's just gibberish.

but maybe you're right and the work of art is all about itself and not about what the artist wanted it to be.

just my way of seeing it. I'm happy with the explanation, but I thought it was the 'right' one all along. unbetraying never occured to me. though it was a nice thought when I read it here.

Idefix

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Thursday, November 28, 2002 7:41 AM

BOILTHESEA

I re-watched it a few days ago, trying to see it from the point of view of Jayne "un-betraying". I could see why people thought that, but it didn't fit the onscreen evidence in one very, very crucial way: River's reactions.

Her brain wave activity changed the instant Jayne said, "The plan's changed", and she woke up screaming. To me that seems fairly indicative that she knew Jayne was lying and endangering them.

"They come out of the black. They come when you call them. Your toes are in the sand". If she was reading Jayne trying at that point to rescue them, i.e., that his intentions were good and his conscience clean, her reaction would be wrong. And while River is by her own admission, oft confused, we've never seen her be wrong.

Also, no reason for her to taunt him with the "No presents" metaphor, if in fact, at the time they were taken into custody he had been trying to help them.

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Thursday, November 28, 2002 8:30 AM

The problem with River's lines is that they aren't really evidence; they can't point you to some knowledge you don't already have, they can only point back at what you already knew some other way. Interpretations for her lines can be come up with in any scenario. In this case, it would be that she's reacting to the approach of the agents rather than Jayne, which would even be indicated (somewhat) by the fact that when she talks in that abstract 3rd-person way, she's always talking about something that's NOT in her immediate surroundings at the moment (like with the can labels and going up the down slide). And if she was teasing Jayne, it's about what he has already set in motion coming back to bite him. Or those lines could be connected to nothing we even know about yet. But her lines are never definite and solid enough to be factually informative on their own.

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Thursday, November 28, 2002 1:16 PM

Heehee, isn't this great? I get an answer and the debate continues! You gotta love a show and a character that gets people this riled up!

(Okay, sorry I'm not more thoughtful now, but I'm still giddy.)

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Thursday, November 28, 2002 7:27 PM

BECKETT

I read somewhere - I do not remember where - that Jayne was only to be in 8 or 9 eps. Has anyone else read that? Maybe Mal has not forgiven him and he will be gone soon - this would break my heart.

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Friday, November 29, 2002 12:15 AM

IDEFIX

it's according to Jose Molinas a false rumour. he said something to that effect in the "Television Without Pity" interview a few days ago.
Jayne is a normal member of the crew and if he dies it will be a suprise to AB as well as to us.

here's the link to the interview:
http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=95&story=4206&limi
t=&sort=

Idefix

PS: it would really interest me what JW and AB think now, that they told us and there's still people arguing against it.

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Friday, November 29, 2002 5:11 AM

TYLOR

I'm surprised that everyone is focusing on the later half of the episode, and not the first half. In my opinion, Jayne didn't feel that he was betraying what he considered the "real" crew of Serenity at all. See, I think he made his decision to go against Mal and get rid of the Tams almost immediately after his conversation with Mal in the infirmary. I think sometimes, though Jayne likes and respects Mal, Jayne finds him a little hard to take. Mal is an idealist, he'll do things the hard way if it fits in with his ideals. Jayne is a pragmatist, he doesn't understand idealism and doesn't like it. (He likes Mal, but considers his idealism to be a flaw that he doesn't quite get.)

Normally, if someone sliced open Jayne's chest with a butcher knife, that person would spend the few remaining minutes of their life learning to breath through a crushed windpipe. In this case, Jayne showed restraint. First, he tries to convince Mal to get rid of the Tams, and get the reward in the bargain. Mal rebukes him, he then decides that this is that irrational part of Mal that he can't quite wrap his mind around, and he decides to get rid of them (and get a big payday) secretly the next chance he gets. He probably figured the hospital job was the perfect opportunity.

You see I think in Jayne's mind, River had changed from "someone who might cry out at the wrong time and get us all pinched by the feds" to "someone who might decide that Serenity would be more fun without air and open all the airlocks one night."

I also think that Jayne doesn't really understand the monstrous evil that is at the heart of the Alliance, he probably felt he was turning Simon in to face time in an Alliance jail (probably the equivalent of one of our white collar prisons) and River back to the nuthouse. I don't think very many people inside or outside of the Alliance know about the blue-handed brain melting guys. I don't think many people would believe in them if you told them about them.

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Friday, November 29, 2002 8:30 AM

Good argument, Tylor! (Especially since I agree. Heehee.)

Now that I'm sane again, I should applaud Queen Tiye for inviting A.B. over here, while I was begging at his feet. Thaks, QT, for having lots and lots of good sense!

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Friday, November 29, 2002 8:35 AM

I've watched "Ariel" a few times now, and I simply can't buy Jayne unbetraying the Tams beforehand for several reasons. First, while Simon and Jayne are in the holoimaging center with River, Jayne says that they need to get moving. Simon replies that they still have twenty minutes; Jayne comments that the plan changed and that they're meeting out the back way in five.

At the same moment that Jayne is saying this (and Simon is distracted), the holo-image of River's mind pulses with red -- a strong implication that she just picked up on something from somewhere nearby (likely Jayne), as we have been led to believe that she's some manner of psychic or telepath.

Additionally, if Jayne had meant to protect them from the Feds by his actions, he would've mentioned that there was some rumor or sight of Feds nearby -- certainly not that the Captain had changed the plan (a comment easily disproven if the Tams successfully got back to the ship).

Moreover, River didn't try to take off the other way earlier in the ep -- only after they had been captured, Jayne was informed that he would be deprived of his reward, and the Bluehands were near. She did cower back in the wheelchair inside the corridor leading to the exit before they were captured by the Feds, but that was most likely because she sensed they were out there.

Finally, if Jayne wasn't leading them to capture at a prearranged rendezvous point with the Feds, why wouldn't he have gone straight up to the fake medical floater? The hospital's a big place -- and claiming that the Feds just happened to be in exactly the right spot to intercept the Tams after Jayne told them he would bring them to another spot suggests utterly impractical odds.

Jayne still sold 'em out. Admittedly, he did aid in the breakout -- but that was only after it became clear that his own skin was on the line now and that he would end up with nothing in the way of reward. It makes Jayne's change of heart at the end, having accepted that he will die, and Mal's retraction of the death sentence, all the more poignant.

It'll be interesting to see just how Jayne's character changes from this point on -- whether he moves away from mercenary dealings at least as regards his crewmates.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Friday, November 29, 2002 8:40 AM

Double post.

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Friday, November 29, 2002 8:45 AM

Triple post. Ruttin' computer, ruttin' phone lines, ruttin' ISP...

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Friday, November 29, 2002 8:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
I think Jayne made contact with the alliance after River stabbed him (for fashion? "you'd look better in red" I think it was?)

Someone pointed out somewhere that River was actually slashing the Blue Sun logo on Jayne's shirt. Apparently it's in the actual script. It's the same reason she tore the labels off the cans in Shindig. (is that the right episode?)

Maybe River was saying that the Blue Sun logo looked better in red- bloodstained- i.e. they have blood on their hands. Think about it.

Or, perchance, she "read" Jayne cleaning his knife and thinking nasty thoughts about Simon, picked up a knife of her own from the kitchen, and did to Jayne what Jayne had been wishfully thinking he could do to Simon... down to the commentary in his mind about Simon looking better in red.

There's no proof, mind you, but that's the way I read the situation.

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Friday, November 29, 2002 9:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
Believing the actor who played Jayne saying that what was shown didn't really happen is like believing Harrison Ford if he were to say that Han Solo didn't really shoot the bounty hunter under the table at Mos Eisley, or believing Sean connery if he were to say that James Bond never actually ordered a shaken-not-stirred drink. He just plain DID and that's all there is to it!

(And it's even worse when the creator of the show in question seems to have a reputation for messing with people's minds just because he thinks it's funny...)

I'm not sure we're on the same wavelength here -- from the way I read Baldwin's comment, Jayne certainly DID mean to betray the Tams, did not unbetray them in the holoimaging center, and only turned on the Feds after it became clear that he wasn't getting his reward and was going to be taken into custody along with the Tams.

I'm not sure where youre response is coming from -- you seem to be suggesting that Baldwin's comment means that Jayne unbetrayed them. Read it again.

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Friday, November 29, 2002 5:00 PM

BECKETT

I think we need to look at Mal’s part in this – Why oh why put Jayne in that position – We already know he doesn’t trust Jayne – why not keep Jayne with him where he can keep his eye on him and send Zoe with the Tams. Jayne is like a really big dog whose first owner beat him and now Mal has to teach him to trust again.

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Monday, December 2, 2002 7:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurukami:
I'm not sure we're on the same wavelength here -- from the way I read Baldwin's comment, Jayne certainly DID mean to betray the Tams, did not unbetray them in the holoimaging center, and only turned on the Feds after it became clear that he wasn't getting his reward and was going to be taken into custody along with the Tams.

I'm not sure where youre response is coming from -- you seem to be suggesting that Baldwin's comment means that Jayne unbetrayed them. Read it again.

No kidding. Adam said unequivocably that Jayne did NOT un-bretray them. And his helping the Tams escape the Feds was his way of double-crossing the cop who betrayed him.

Ah, well - people will read what they want into it.

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Monday, December 2, 2002 8:19 AM

Now this is getting ridiculous. They were trapped, and Jayne was rushing them out. You only try to get someone out of a trap if you don't want them caught; if you DO want them caught, you leave them in the trap, sit back, and watch it happen.

That's not reading anything into anything, and it's not finding excuses for what I want. It's just WHAT WAS SHOWN. Those who try to make a case CONTRARY to that are the ones that have to ignore this very basic simple fact about what was shown and infuse things that weren't directly shown.

And when I say that what's shown takes precedence over what's said about it by anyone involved, how in the world can that mean the opposite of what I just said?

I've had enough of this from you people.

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Monday, December 2, 2002 10:43 AM

ELDOR

Jayne was rushing the Tams *into* the trap waiting for them at the backdoor, not rushing them out of a trap.

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Monday, December 2, 2002 12:07 PM

BOBKNAPTOR

Delvo,

I aprreciate your opinions. But I think you are being rude. It's perfectly acceptable for you to feel that Jayne is a noble creature who backed out of a devious plot to save the poor damaged girl. You're entitled to that opinion. You're entitled to state that opinion and your evidence to back it up. But to get snippy with the entire board just because not everyone agrees with you or changed their opinion because of what you said... it's just uncalled for. This is uncalled for:

Quote:
I've had enough of this from you people.

We've all been respectful of your opinion, whether we agreed with it or not. I think at this point, we have to just agree to disagree about this. But there is no need to get rude.

______________
Two by Two... Hands of Blue

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Monday, December 2, 2002 12:40 PM

AVALON

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
Changing the plans means changing the plans!

But Delvo -- how do we know Jayne ever changed his own plans?

Sure, he told Simon that there was a change in plans for the heist, and that they now had to leave early. But why couldn't this have been Jayne's plan with the Alliance guy all along? Rush the Tams out of there and into the hands of the Alliance, so that by the time anyone was the wiser it'd be too late...

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Monday, December 2, 2002 2:48 PM

MORWYND

Sorry Delvo... but ya lost another supporter. :) Whedon may delight in staying quiet, misleading people, throwing out red herrings, and countering people's expectations, but I've yet to see him outright LIE to his fans about plot points. I was convinced Jayne rushed em out early to avoid the Feds, but if Whedon says (through Adam Baldwin) that Jayne intended to hand them in every second until he found out he had no reward coming, I believe him.

I STILL don't think any clear reason was presented in the episode as to why they rushed out early, but then, I've only seen it once when it originally aired, perhaps I missed something. I still don't buy the "he needed the extra time to get the money and get back to Serenity smoothly" line, but other possibilities DO exist. I'm kinda leaning towards thinking Jayne was starting to feel guilty, so he wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible, before learning about any more horrors River had to endure, but that's just speculation.

Oh well... I will look forward to dissecting "War Stories" this weekend.. hehehe. :)

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Monday, December 2, 2002 3:51 PM

HOOK

What I find the most amusing is that no one noticed that when Jayne brought Simon and River into that foyer where they were captured by the alliance hospital security guards that Jayne closed the door behind Simon and River...why did he close the door? so they couldn't get away....why didn't he want them to get away? Because he wanted to get his reward money (and the added bonus of getting rid of Simon, who he hates, and getting rid of River, who slashed him with a knife and is a huge risk to his security and his fellow crew members). Now if Jayne is un-betraying Simon and River why would he close the door to block their exit....simply he wouldn't. Meaning he never un-betrayed them. This is just one of the many bits of proof that the un-betrayal never happened.

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Monday, December 2, 2002 4:05 PM

DOCEBO

One thing I wanna add to this lenghty discussion is a response to the "Jayne rushed them out because he was un-betraying them" theory. Perhaps he was rushing them because he wanted to get it done with because after he saw what they had done to river he was starting to feel bad about it, and in a very Jayne like way he decided the best way to fix that feeling was to just turn them in a get his money 'cause money fixes everything.

-Docebo

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Monday, December 2, 2002 8:06 PM

Quote:
to get snippy with the entire board just because not everyone agrees with you or changed their opinion

That's not what happened. I reacted to the way two other people treated ME. And I am now done with this thread.

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Tuesday, December 3, 2002 4:29 AM

QUEENTIYE

Thanks to Persephonefor bringing the quote over here: here's what I took from this (although I could be wrong):

Quote:
From: ADAM_BALDWIN 2:36 am

So, I hereby offer to all (with a notable nod to I.L.J. from Fireflyfans.net), the official poop: Jayne never unbetrayed Simon and River, he simply redouble-crossed the low down dirty double-crossing fed who was intending to keep Jayne's "RE-WARD" for himself.

Jayne did in fact change his plans - he re-doublecrossed the agent. Re-doublecross is NOT the same thing at all as fighting to escape after having been caught. The use of the word implies exactly what Delvo has been saying - that there was a change in JAYNE'S plans. What caused him to change his plans? That's a good question. Maybe when he saw the extent of the Alliance evil, he realized that they would be doublecrossing him, and redoublecrossed them instead! But whatever the reason for his "redoublecrossing," what has been distinguished here is not the actions, but the motivations.

Quote:
Jayne is a mercenary after all, but he's our mercenary, and that's why I love the petulant child, "box-dropping man-ape gone wrong, thrillin' he-roics thing," that he is... A work in progress.

In short - he's a mercenary, so we have to understand his motivations from THAT standpoint. BUT... he's "our" mercenary - how does that fit in? I take it that he's got some feelings worth saving him for, but not too much. If I were talking with Jayne right now, and he were explaining to me about re-doublecrossing the ruttin' fed who double-crossed him, I'd be laughing at him (but not outloud!)... I'd be laughing at how much effort is given to amplifying the mercenary part of his character at expense of the part of him that might have felt bad about what he was doing in the first place...

But even if I were wrong about that, and I lived to see the day when Jayne stabbed me in the back without a thought or remorse, I think that Adam's response justifies the belief that Jayne changed plans, and backed out of the betrayal.

************

In fairness to Delvo...there were two responses to his assertion that the response given by AB to this issue didn't change his viewpoint that were slightly pointed - telling someone to "read it again" or stating that "people see what they want to see" is stating unequivocably that there is something wrong with someone who sees it differently. But I'll also point out that the assertion that "that's all there is to it" is rather dismissive of other viewpoints...

In short, can we all just come back to the table, acknowledge that this has gotten a tiny bit heavyhanded, and go back to enjoying the debate?

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Tuesday, December 3, 2002 4:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:
In fairness to Delvo...there were two responses to his assertion that the response given by AB to this issue didn't change his viewpoint that were slightly pointed - telling someone to "read it again" or stating that "people see what they want to see" is stating unequivocably that there is something wrong with someone who sees it differently. But I'll also point out that the assertion that "that's all there is to it" is rather dismissive of other viewpoints...

In short, can we all just come back to the table, acknowledge that this has gotten a tiny bit heavyhanded, and go back to enjoying the debate?

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

To me ignoring what Adam said in plain English just to forward your own opinion is the heavy-handed part of this conversation.

I'll tell you what: I'm 100% certain that what Adam MEANT was that a) Jayne never un-betrayed them (because he said so in plain English) and b) the double-cross was in helping get the Tams as well as himself away AFTER he'd betrayed them.

But I'll trot back over to the official board and ask for clarification.

This discussion reminds me of the Andromeda board, where we'd all be arguing about something and Zack or Ash would come on and say "THIS is what I meant when I wrote it" and someone would say "OK" and then go back to arguing the point just as if they'd never said a word.

And BTW, I agree that un-betray is a TERRIBLE word (well, a non-word, actually).

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Tuesday, December 3, 2002 11:28 AM

First, let me offer an apology to Delvo. I certainly didn't mean to offer insult when I said "read it again"; unfortunately, pure text messages sometimes lack the nuances of intonation and meaning that are intended. So, Delvo, I'm sorry! :)

That said, I still don't think that Adam Baldwin was supporting your point of view with his response. All that I intended to impart with my original comment was that perhaps you had seen a phrase and jumped to a conclusion, rather than reading it all the way through.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Tuesday, December 3, 2002 4:45 PM

KEF

Being the idiot who started all this hullaballoo way the hell back when, all I can contribute to the debate at this point is to say that Adam Baldwin's reply answered the question to my own personal satisfaction.

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Wednesday, December 4, 2002 7:05 AM