Is There Any Charactor On FireFly that annoys you? by piratejenny

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Is There Any Charactor On FireFly that annoys you?

POSTED BY: PIRATEJENNY
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 7, 2004 15:02
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 21119
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Thursday, September 2, 2004 12:00 AM

Book annoys me. He always has some moral to impart - he rarely really does anything. People who think they've got all the right answers and need to tell everyone what to do just usually bug me.

Quote:
BOOK: I am a Shepherd. Folks like a man of God.
MAL: No, they don't. Men of God make everyone feel guilty and judged.

On the whole grammar debate: I like it when people take the time to try to make their posts as readable as possible - it's just being nice. Some mistakes, like typos or spelling mistakes are easily overlooked, and some are made by bumbling foreign people (like me). But some people's form can be a real obstacle for understanding the content - like writing in ALL CAPS or l33t sp34k. I found the original post a chore to read, and I think the humorous jibe was well deserved and should be taken in good spirit. Piratejenny, don't change your style to seem more educated or whatever, just do it to make life easier for your readers (us)!

"While we have an open policy concerning comments, we hope that you will provide literate and thought provoking ones."

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 12:55 AM

JENDANDY

I agree with what's being said about Book. He's too quickly dismissed with the whole God thing. I've never heard of Joss being atheist - could this be a jab at Christians or something? Like what the other person said (sorry, forgot your name) even Jayne, who IMO can be the biggest a** hole, is more readily excepted for who he is. What's up with that?
The irony? I'm not a big fan of Book, though I can't say he annoys me. Jayne annoys me some though. Wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him. I don't know why he's put up with in the first place.

JEN The Sig-less Wonder

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 4:32 AM

DANFAN

I think the key to understanding Jayne's character is that he is a canine. To be more specific, I think he is a wolf. Submissive to the alpha in the pack. Obsessed with pack order (and his place in it). Expecting deference from those below him in the pack. And pitiless towards those outside the pack.

From time to time, he might challenge the alpha... then fall right back into line when that challenge fails. From a canine's perspective, that isn't betrayal. It's just the natural order of things.

Book doesn't bother me. He has a moral compass that may not be to everyone's taste. But, to me, he never seemed overbearing with it. My take on him was "here it is... if you like what you see, I can explain it further to you."

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 6:45 AM

JAHZARA

I find it ironic that I keep coming up Book in personality tests, but of all of the characters, I'm least interested in him. It's ironic as well that probably my favorite line of the entire show is when Book tells River that "faith fixes you". I also find it extremely introspectic for a show with an atheist creator and feel that conversation could have been extremely fascinating if it had been allowed to continue. I don't really find Christianity has been treated like a red-headed stepchild on Firefly. It just may not be respected 'cause the characters see themselves having no real use for it.
Or maybe I'm just so used to negative portrayals of Christianity in the media I don't see it. The only episode Book annoyed me in was Bushwhacked.

Atherton gets on my nerves (he would NOT have grabbed me!) But he was soo gorgeous on Children of Dune.

I used to HATE Mal and Jayne but since the DVD's see how beautifully they're written and portrayed.

A good friend of mine watched the pilot with me (she was less than impressed, *sigh*) and didn't think Simon did enough when Hobson took River prisoner. She's coming from a personal place with that. Her sister (who was also her best friend) was killed. She doesn't have a whole lot of use for Simon, but I love him.
It's the most interesting reaction to Firefly I've gotten.

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 6:54 AM

VENA

Quote:

SIKKUKUT:
In any case, I'm not exactly like Simon, but if there's anybody on the ship I am like, it's him. I wonder, if you met me, if I'd rub you the wrong way.

I honestly could not say. There may be a part of your personality that could bring cohesion to your traits that Simon lacks. Or I could hate you on site.

But seriously

, so far I enjoy your posts, you haven’t pissed me off, and you have thoughtfully provided points for me to think about. All in all a good day.

I would like to think I’m most like Kaylee. I know I’m not ‘cause I’m too moody and I have a tendency to experience that whole “anger” thing now and then. But her bubbly, bouncy attitude and the eternal optimism and faith I’ve definitely got.

Quote:

DANFAN:
I think the key to understanding Jayne's character is that he is a canine. To be more specific, I think he is a wolf. Submissive to the alpha in the pack. Obsessed with pack order (and his place in it). Expecting deference from those below him in the pack. And pitiless towards those outside the pack.

From time to time, he might challenge the alpha... then fall right back into line when that challenge fails. From a canine's perspective, that isn't betrayal. It's just the natural order of things.

DANFAN, I am totally amazed. You totally got it! You were able to express in words that intangible thing about Jayne that I totally love. The pack aspect is what gives him his strength, a predictability, and what I would see as loyalty. The challenges just being the natural order of things. When he turned over Simon and River he was not betraying the group because they were not yet a part of the group, outsiders.

*************************
Because I am an American. And what does an American want? Democracy? Capitalism. I want to sell out and settle down. For one day only, it's a blue light special on Aisle Three. My wormhole technology... and a free set of steak knives... for all the tea in China. And anything you can imagine to pay me... welcome to my cold war.

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 7:13 AM

WHISPERING

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
not that I have to explain anything to you..but for the rest of the posters out there I will those dashes<......> are my pauses in thought...

I too use "..." as a pause... as in :) means i'm smiling. It gives more character to the post.

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 7:23 AM

DANFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Vena:
When he turned over Simon and River he was not betraying the group because they were not yet a part of the group, outsiders.

Exactly!! I wasn't thinking of that specific incident when I wrote my comment, but it fits perfectly for the reason you state. He didn't see them as part of his pack at the time, so no foul. When the alpha made it clear at the end of the episode that he was wrong, and that by turning them over he had betrayed the pack, Jayne's anquish was genuine.

Cool. I hadn't picked up on that...

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 8:41 AM

SHINY4004

Quote:
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
Quote:

I'm sorry if it offends those on the board, but the way that you write isn't unimportant. There're only two ways of evaluating a message-board denizen: 1) his/her ideas, 2) his/her writing. That's it. _______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

I wholeheartedly agree. The way someone expresses themselves is how they are judged. For what it's worth, I knew you were joking when you made the original comment, it's sad that others didn't. I think everyone should just relax, no one is going to punish you for not using proper grammar, but they might tease you a bit. So just do the proper thing and tease right back.

"Oh I'm going to the special hell."-Mal

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 8:55 AM

SASJA

I like this pack theory, though I think it has a clear weakness: When he first meets Mal, Jayne turns on his "pack" in seconds. Jayne is just an opportunist, in my view - and very human.

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 9:48 AM

PIRATEJENNY

opinions are neither right nor wrong so I wouldn't flame you for yours .. but in Simon's defense I will respond

Quote:
He is a sniveling rich kid who not only looks down his nose at his newfound predicament in the beginning of the series, but he continues to resist any attempt to adapt to his new environment. Yes, he saved his sister, but who did he leave behind? Instead of just focusing on what HE wanted, why did he not instead find what was the purpose of the school and find if they were doing this to other children.

I never saw Simon sniveling...he gave up alot to save his sister something that he's done without regret and something he would do all over again if he had the same choice to make....he maynot be exactly happy with his current living situation..as anyone would be under those circumstances..but he also seems aware of just how lucky he is ..things could be alot worse for him and River

I don't think Simon's 1rst concern was finding out what the school was doing I think his 1rst concern was getting River out..and then worry about the other stuff later his 1rst priorty was River

Quote:
I do ‘ship of the Janyn and Kaylee. Forgive me for that one. But I want to know why Simon must see her as “his only option” instead of the lovely person that she is? He is of a kind of man that I have detested all my life. Gutless. He insists on dancing around the subject of a relationship and never gets the balls to do something about it. When Kaylee grows tire of the waiting game and takes a step up, he is then repulsed by her overt actions.

If you look at Simon's world and where he came from and what he was doing..he had alot of options..Simon is a thinker..and what he sees is very limited or very few options if any at all in his current circustances...I don't think its a judgement on Kaylee at all..I think he thinks of her as a very sweet and likeable girl...and as sweet as she is ..doesn't mean that they are compatible..perhaps Simon needs someone more challenging..I don't think Simon dances around the subject of a reltionship with Kaylee..Its Kaylee that continues to make advances at him while I'm sure he's flattered in a way..he has never encouraged her...(thats all Kaylee) she's kind of aggressive which is fine...but I don't think Simon is as interested as she is in him.

I think part of the reason why Kaylee annoys me so is because she seems kind of flighty..kind of desperate...her infatuation for Simon is just that infatuation..because of limited options..and I think Simon is mature and smart enough to understand this..thats why he brought it up in the message...

if you'll recall when Tracy came on the ship..Kaylee took an immediate liking to him also..(IMO he seemed more her speed anyway)..look how quick she was able to redirect her attention..

and you notice how she asked wash to tell her she is pretty...Kaylee is just looking for love(nothing wrong with that we all need it) but she seems to be longing for it too..she has alot of love to give..and the reason she keeps advancing on Simon is because of her own needs and not so much because of Simon himself

Quote:

I just want him to grow a set and stop thinking everything is about him and his sister.

but to understand Simon , you would have to understand that everything is about him and his sister..I mean River and helping her is his 1rst priority..sure he cares about the crew and what happens..very much so I believe ..but his whole reason for being there in the 1rst place is because of River..in someways that is his purpose for living

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 10:20 AM

SIKKUKUT

Vena, I'm glad you don't have an immediate, irrational dislike for me. That's always neat.

I'm in agreement that the pack theory is a perfect way of looking at Jayne. I'd say that he turned on his previous pack because it had no alpha, or the alpha wasn't present. Marco and whatsits weren't leaders. Mal is, and offered Jayne his leadership, and so Jayne accepted it. Sorta reminds me of the kif in C.J. Cherryh's Pride of Chanur books. Anybody ever read those?

What really fascinates me about Jayne is that he thinks everybody thinks like he does. In the pilot, in Train Job, in Bushwhacked, and more, he expresses the belief that Mal is going to sell out Simon and River, because that's what he would do, and he can't conceive of any reasons-- beyond softness-- to do otherwise. And he knows that Mal's not soft. In Jaynestown, of course, we get his manifesto: "You think there's someone gonna drop money on you? Money they can use? Well there ain't people like that... There's just people like me." Perhaps this is why Jayne is so frightened of Reavers... his worldview doesn't accomodate purposeless evil any more easily than it accomodates pointless sacrifice.

EDIT: PirateJenny, damn good point about Kaylee's infatuation with Simon. I'm not convinced he's distancing himself from the situation quite as much as you think, and I would point out that when Tracy came onboard she was actively annoyed with Simon. Still, you've definitely got a point that first and foremost, Kaylee just wants to be loved.
____________________________
"You're mean. Firefly's making me reconsider my lifelong devotion to Star Trek." --My mother

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 11:13 AM

DANFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Sikkukut:

I'm in agreement that the pack theory is a perfect way of looking at Jayne. I'd say that he turned on his previous pack because it had no alpha, or the alpha wasn't present. Marco and whatsits weren't leaders. Mal is, and offered Jayne his leadership, and so Jayne accepted it...

What really fascinates me about Jayne is that he thinks everybody thinks like he does...

Perhaps this is why Jayne is so frightened of Reavers... his worldview doesn't accomodate purposeless evil any more easily than it accomodates pointless sacrifice.

Excellent points.

The purpose of the "pack view" of the world is that it confers survival advantage. When it stops doing that in the wild, because of poor leadership or no leadership, a pack can disintegrate or die. And it's *Jayne* who has the "pack view." The people he is with may not have that view. Even worse, they may not recognize that he DOES have that view. Which ties straight into your second point:

He thinks that everyone thinks like he does... that is so canine. We fool ourselves into believing that our dogs think like we do, when in fact they think like dogs. There are many points of intersection between dog etiquette and human etiquette. But there are very real differences. A *LOT* of the incidents where dogs attack people result from people expecting a dog to be a less intelligent human, and thus not realizing that they are breaking a major "dog rule." That, I think, is the big reason why Jayne shot one of his previous "pack members" and joined up with Mal. They never figured out that he was a wolf! In another thread, I remember reading a spot-on dissection of how Mal treated each crew member differently in "Out of Gas" to improve the chances for survival. It was as if he instinctively knew that he needed to shout at Wash, but he needed to gentle Kaylee. I think he also knows that he needs to speak "wolf etiquette" with Jayne. Jayne gets his pack view confirmed... thus he can commit to the pack's protection.

Your comment about Jayne's reaction to Reavers is simply perfect. Nothing else needs to be said...

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 1:18 PM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny4004:
For what it's worth, I knew you were joking when you made the original comment, it's sad that others didn't. I think everyone should just relax, no one is going to punish you for not using proper grammar, but they might tease you a bit.

Thanks for saying.

I am just honestly stunned that I got flamed to death for that. If I'd wanted to insult Jenny, I woulda done. Instead I teased.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 3:44 PM

BLACKSHAMROCK5

Quote:
Originally posted by Jahzara:
.

Atherton gets on my nerves (he would NOT have grabbed me!) But he was soo gorgeous on Children of Dune.

I just wanted to say that crap yeah he was hot!

Shamrock

...Fear is the mind killer...

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 4:11 PM

VENA

PIRATEJENNY:
I had not thought about Simon’s response to Kaylee quite like that. It could be that what you see as him consciously deciding to not have a romantic relationship with her is what I have been miss interpreting as a form of wishy-wahy-ness on his part. Or even in some extremes, depending on how good a mood I’m in, rejecting her but half heartedly accepting her in the same breath as “all he’s got so best to make due with what I have.” My superior Psychology Major brain (Note the sarcasm in my voice

) would say that this is a form of projection and if kept in check and I continue to be consciously aware of it that it is perfectly healthy.

SIKKUKUT and DANFAN:
I love this new perspective we have come up with to understand who and what Jayne really is. (at least I think it is new…) The books I prefer to read tend to run far into the Fantasy-Scifi genre. Of all the supernatural beasties I have always loved werewolves best of all. I find the sense of pack and the predictable and open social standings fascinating. Perhaps that is why I want to focus in on behavioral psychology, to find the rule book for our own society that dictates how and why we act. And we conclude this brief, terrifying look into Vena’s psyche with a new found understanding of why she has a crush on Jayne. That is all.

****
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.

*************************
Because I am an American. And what does an American want? Democracy? Capitalism. I want to sell out and settle down. For one day only, it's a blue light special on Aisle Three. My wormhole technology... and a free set of steak knives... for all the tea in China. And anything you can imagine to pay me... welcome to my cold war.

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 4:44 PM

DANFAN

Vena,

I am so looking forward to this movie. With the budget and scope of a theatrical release, I'm fair certain it will be wonderfully entertaining.

But the thing I miss about Firefly-that-would-have-been is the steady development of the characters that Joss surely had planned. Unravelling the mysteries of Inara, Book, Simon/River. Developing and growing the characters who were damaged or imprisoned by their pasts.

I think it was the latter that he planned for Jayne. In the seasons that never came, I think we might have seen Jayne grow, in fits and starts, from a noble wolf into a noble wolf with a man's heart. It woulda been sumpthin' to watch. That holds true for all their stories...

Hopefully Joss, Cappy and the Crew can capture it all in the movie(s) to come.

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 5:23 PM

SIKKUKUT

Danfan, agreed on all points. The gradual character development is the very same thing I feel most bereft of with the cancellation of the series. Thanks again for the pack insight... it's a good one.

Vena, I had guessed from the way you talked about Simon that you'd have a crush on Jayne. And I, too, enjoy seeing packlike social standings work themselves out. As I mentioned before, the works of C.J. Cherryh are an excellent place to find some alien psychologies based around that concept. She writes aliens better than anybody else I've ever read.

Now, as for the pack thing, I would posit that among humans, those with the pack mentality are ill-suited to being alphas, and don't usually find themselves in that role (Jayne with his own ship? Ungggh). Rather, I would say there's a specifically alpha personality that rises to the top... or is it simply that these people are better at playing the pack game?

Also, I wanted to congratulate folks for not letting this thread bog down in insults. Plenty of times, even on this very board, I've seen minor altercations, not so different from the one earlier, turn into big, stupid, really nasty conflicts that kill a thread and leave everybody really upset. So you guys rock for not going that route.

I do find it interesting that people are listing villains, or rather, antagonists, as characters who rub them the wrong way... Aren't they supposed to, to a degree? When you say you don't like Atherton Wing, I have to wonder... do you dislike him as a person, as a character, or as an antagonist? As a person, he's despicable... that's rather the point. As a character, he's a little thinly developed but consistent. As an antagonist, I think he's very effective, precisely because one wants so badly to wipe that gose-eating grin right off the smug little bastard's face. So for folks who listed antagonists, I'm curious to hear why.

On the other hand, sometimes the most effective villains are the ones that you really want to like, and those have been thin on the ground in Firefly. Magneto from the X-Men movies and the villain from Alan Moore's Watchmen (not to spoil the ending) are two good examples. And of course, George R.R. Martin does such a good job with his Song of Ice and Fire that by the end of the third book you don't even know who you're rooting for.

And... I'm rambling. Sorry. Point is, this has sparked some interesting discussions that have really gotten me thinking. Thanks, all.

____________________________
"You're mean. Firefly's making me reconsider my lifelong devotion to Star Trek." --My mother

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 10:12 PM

ZOID

piratejenny, et al:

Might I weigh in a bit? First, I found the characterizations in Firefly the most fascinating and palatable of any show I've seen on TV. Period. They were 3D when needed, 2D when appropriate and 1D in a very classically Greek way on occasion. Simply put, Joss is a genius at characters and dialogue.

The question: "Which character annoys you?" may be answered thus: "All of them, when it suits Mr. Whedon's purpose." Joss and his cronies know precisely how to tweak our noses, and can even manage to split us into camps based upon archetypical personalities. Jocks get Jayne. Nerds grok Simon. Thinkers relate to Book. The lovelorn sympathize with Kaylee. (Continue iteration, ad absurdum)

For the sake of honesty, while we may not admit it to our significant others, Inara captivates men in a way Kaylee-types never could. We may love, marry and raise families with 'Kaylees', but an Inara-in-distress requires chivalric action. This infuriates females. Oddly, it also infuriates men, but we can do nothing about it; it's a fact of hormonal response. Women are aware of this fact, and it only serves to amp up their annoyance with men and hatred of Inaras.

The mark of Joss' true genius -- and I don't care if this makes me a grovelling sycophant or not -- is that he has so marvelously written Mal's character as a leader that everyone recognizes him as such. All the other characters defer to him: Jayne -- who is clearly Mal's physical superior; Book -- who I believe was the Alliance military strategist in his former walk of life. Inara never openly challenges him, and she was once on a path to become Head Priestess of the House on Sihnon, per Nandi. Zoe -- perhaps the strongest female character ever written -- unquestioningly yields to his authority.

A leader must be a loner. He must never become so involved with those he leads that he becomes blind to their weaknesses. He must see them all as if in a ledger: assets and liabilities. He must use them to the greatest advantage, and work to negate their vulnerabilities through effective teambuilding. He must be gregarious, yet apart. Notice that his most trusted confidante -- Zoe -- keeps a respectful emotional distance from him: it's how it must be.

Further, JW cast Nat Fillion as Mal: another stroke of genius, IMO. His cameo in "Saving Private Ryan" was the most poignant piece of acting I can readily recall. Fillion, despite his initial misgivings with the darkness of the character, does an admirable and wholly believable job in the role.

If I might further presume to pose a corollary question: Which of the characters do you think is Joss' 'writer's voice'? Which one is -- at least most frequently -- a representation of Joss' personality? For the reasons stated above, I think it's Mal.

Others have called Joss an atheist; but Mal isn't; he's a apostate, one who's lost faith in God's benevolence and care for the faithful. It's not so much that Mal doesn't believe God exists, as it is that Mal thinks God doesn't love him. Combined with the character of Book -- Alliance General-turned-monk-from-shame -- as a counterpoint, what does that say about Joss Whedon's dormant spirituality?

As to punctuation, spelling and grammar: Anything worth saying is worth saying well, and accurately. Having said that, I've seen a lot of poor usage (especially in written form) from people whose opinions I respect otherwise.

A final note: My GSD -- who'll turn 1 year old in mid-October -- is named 'Jayne'. Good in a fight, he knows who the alpha male of the house is: Me. Just don't leave your steak unattended on a countertop. He'll scarf it down faster than his namesake would sell out the Tam sibs. Captain Reynolds understands this aspect of his 'dog' Jayne's character, too...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 230 days, 20 hours, 56 minutes, and 5 seconds left until The BDM!

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Thursday, September 2, 2004 11:21 PM

DEANNAMAY

You are right PirateJenny, we Simon fans must stick together. Just to show my point of view regarding the Simon and Kaylee relationship. I have always seen it as Simon feeling he has nothing to offer at this time in his life. His life was been one of privilege and position, and usually people in that situation are evaluated by what they have and what they can bring to the relationship. Simon, where once he brought money, talent and standing now simply has the talent. He defines himself by what he used to be, instead of what he is now. He finds little value in himself, which is why I think he finds it easy to give his life for River, or at least put it on the line. He doesn't see that he has anything to offer anyone, so does not seek out a relationship. He was loosening up a bit towards the end of the run, as he has shown value to the group, but still had a long way to go.

I think Simon is brought up in a society where you don't show your cards, as it were. Relationships are calculations, rather than just emotional. Kaylee's out and out interest in him probably throws him completely, and it shows. It would have been interesting if they had an episode where Inara needed an escort, and Simon got to interact in a situation where he is comfortable and knowledgeable.

Once Simon got to the place where he was a member of the crew, full and accepted, I think he would have felt a lot more comfortable seeking out a relationship with the what-you-see-is-what-you-get Kaylee.

We also have to remember that the sentinel relationship of trust, that of parent and child, was destroyed, and therefore Simon has difficulties trusting anyone outside of River, whom he is protecting. Trust is paramount in any successful relationship.

Now, on to Jayne, who I admit isn't one of my favorites, but I do see where people are coming from regarding him. I imagine the Jayne we see, and the Jayne who behaves around his mother, takes off his hat in respect to religion are just facets of this canine. As for his treatment of Simon and River as being outside the pack, I think it is more a reaction of the threat to his own safety, rather than protecting the pack. While canine, Jayne is still human, and values himself above all the others, to him, that is the only sensible thing to do. Simon must drive him crazy because he continues to put River above himself, something Jayne doesn't understand is likely to be something Jayne doesn't trust. The fact Kaylee likes him adds to that distrust as well. When Simon strapped him to that table and had him paralyzed Jayne realized this dog can bite back, but isn't planning on it. So now Jayne has to deal with the fact that he has an opponent that isn't going to fight him, but isn't going to take it either.

Sorry about the meandering, I typed this on my break at work, and must get back to my nutty patients.

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Friday, September 3, 2004 3:17 AM

DANFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by DeannaMay:
While canine, Jayne is still human...

DeannaMay,

You are, of course, correct. The Jayne character is not a pure canine. That would have become so boring so fast had the series continued. He is a human with strong canine traits. That allows the audience to grasp his essential nature and still be intrigued/surprised by the subtleties that his humanity would have revealed (like the unexpected reverence in the Message). I still feel that the series-that-would-have-been would have had some fun developing the conflict between these two elements of his nature, and showing how he learned to resolve those conflicts.

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Friday, September 3, 2004 7:09 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:

oringally posted by Shiny

I knew you were joking when you made the original comment, it's sad that others didn't. I think everyone should just relax, no one is going to punish you for not using proper grammar, but they might tease you a bit. So just do the proper thing and tease right back.

maybe this poster was joking..but it came out very negatively which I'm guessing that was the whole intent in the 1rst place...as for teasing..I really don't think this person was teasing although I could be wrong...but I don't think so, I don't know this person ..but I'll call someone on their Crap when its foul..call it what you will ..but teasing ..nah

Quote:
See, I'm not writing an English paper or a book, either. I just don't want to look completely uneducated (for instance, using "careless", when I actually mean "care less"). But hey. If you want to look ignorant and uneducated, be my guest.

this person clearly does not respect my post Because I don't measure up to this person's standards of what he/she feels is right or rightious.. correct...this person assumes that I'm uneducated and ignorant(lol) there are plenty of educated fools from educated schools... just because you know where to put a period doesn't make you an intelligent or smart person...from this persons post I could assume that they are not very intelligent... but I don't care either way..and since I don't know the person I choose not to make the assumption!!

teasing... more like being pompus!!! thats my take on it

its a large board and I'm willing to let bygones be bygones

I like the way I post..its unique to me..

I had meant to reply to this post earlier ..but I was having computer problems...

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Friday, September 3, 2004 7:38 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Originally posted by DeannaMay:
I have always seen it as Simon feeling he has nothing to offer at this time in his life. His life was been one of privilege and position, and usually people in that situation are evaluated by what they have and what they can bring to the relationship. Simon, where once he brought money, talent and standing now simply has the talent. He defines himself by what he used to be, instead of what he is now. He finds little value in himself, which is why I think he finds it easy to give his life for River, or at least put it on the line. He doesn't see that he has anything to offer anyone, so does not seek out a relationship. He was loosening up a bit towards the end of the run, as he has shown value to the group, but still had a long way to go.

well that is a diffrent perspective one that I had not thought of before...perhaps because its hard for me to think of Simon as thinking of himself as having nothing to give, he seems very sure of himself to me..not so in how he relates to people..but in himself.. I see him as being very confident in his skills and in his self worth..I too think that Simon has nothing to offer Kaylee..because River has him emotionally..I think on some level its always been that way

Quote:
I think Simon is brought up in a society where you don't show your cards, as it were. Relationships are calculations, rather than just emotional. Kaylee's out and out interest in him probably throws him completely, and it shows. It would have been interesting if they had an episode where Inara needed an escort, and Simon got to interact in a situation where he is comfortable and knowledgeable.

this is precisely why I feel that Kaylee is all wrong for simon, and yes I see what your getting at...someone mentioned before that simon was inept with women..and my response to that was ..but if Simon was in his on world.. we would see someone very ept indeed!! at least I think

[qoute]once Simon got to the place where he was a member of the crew, full and accepted, I think he would have felt a lot more comfortable seeking out a relationship with the what-you-see-is-what-you-get Kaylee.

I think on an emotional level that River feeds Simon's emotional needs in every way..I see her as being his ideal, and while Kaylee could feed his physical needs, I think if they did end up having that kind of relationship it would be Kaylee who would be the outcast and feel left out.. and maybe even resentful...she longs to be loved..I don't neccessarily see Kaylee being the type that would be happy being 2nd best...she's to needy..emotionally.... would she settle for whatever simon had leftover from River?

Now if River was to be restored to her orginal condition and Simon didn't have to invest so much of himself in her....then I wonder would he give kaylee a chance...I'm still not sure about that!!

Quote:
I imagine the Jayne we see, and the Jayne who behaves around his mother, takes off his hat in respect to religion are just facets of this canine.

didn't Jayne want to be a shepherd ..I thought he alluded to that when River read his mind

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Friday, September 3, 2004 8:22 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
oringally posted by zoid
For the sake of honesty, while we may not admit it to our significant others, Inara captivates men in a way Kaylee-types never could. We may love, marry and raise families with 'Kaylees', but an Inara-in-distress requires chivalric action. This infuriates females. Oddly, it also infuriates men, but we can do nothing about it; it's a fact of hormonal response. Women are aware of this fact, and it only serves to amp up their annoyance with men and hatred of Inaras.

I Think it is for this very reason that I haven't paid the Inara charactor to much attention..rather then be infuriated.. I only take an intrest when I have too....she's the phony type..well not so much phony as...

Inara is beautiful but beauty is subjective, rather it is her ablity to bend men to her will with her charm , skill, and knowelege an does it in such a calculating and even manipulative way, if need be, and have them eating out of the palm of her hand.. and thanking her for the honor....it is a Power and Inara is a woman who owns her power and wears it like a Crown of jewels ... and she does it with an air of vulnerablity and grace....you would never hear Inara..asking Wash to tell her she was pretty!!!

I can't deny such talents are a gift and not everyone has been blessed lol!!! and some of us don't have the patience or temperment to fine tune and sharpen those skills....and its a lucky thing for you men that not all of us do .. We women could rule the world!!!

but men are captivated by the type...is it annoying yep!!but Inara doesn't bother me as much as she could..because I know its an act with her....she openly gets paid for the services she provides.. I guess I respect that in some ways its part of her job as a Companion...but its always fascinating and fun to see how easily you men fall for it sink line and hook!!!lol

Inara often looks bored and weary to me.. she too seems to be searching maybe for herself most of all..the only thing I truly wonder about the charactor is who is she really.. if you stripped away all the Companion compliantacy who would she be...maybe I should pay more attention to Inara she might be alot more interesting then I imagine!!

Quote:
If I might further presume to pose a corollary question: Which of the characters do you think is Joss' 'writer's voice'? Which one is -- at least most frequently -- a representation of Joss' personality? For the reasons stated above, I think it's Mal.

yes Mal does seem to be the closest to rep to joss....its funny because Mal kind of reminds me of me... in the way that he see's hope where there is none..and how he doesn't give up but fights with his last breath and gets the job done, he doesn't have faith in much..and he's searching....he wants desperately to believe in people and in human kindness and decency....and he does even when he knows he shouldn't....ok I could be projecting but thats kind of how I see Mal..at least every since I saw Out Of Gas..Mal doesn't seem like an optimist...at least not on the outside... but to me he is the most optimistic charactor on the show!!

Quote:
A final note: My GSD -- who'll turn 1 year old in mid-October -- is named 'Jayne'. Good in a fight, he knows who the alpha male of the house is: Me. Just don't leave your steak unattended on a countertop. He'll scarf it down faster than his namesake would sell out the Tam sibs. Captain Reynolds understands this aspect of his 'dog' Jayne's character, too...

LOL great post

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Friday, September 3, 2004 9:14 PM

HANDMAIDENANDE

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
The question: "Which character annoys you?" may be answered thus: "All of them, when it suits Mr. Whedon's purpose." Joss and his cronies know precisely how to tweak our noses, and can even manage to split us into camps based upon archetypical personalities. Jocks get Jayne. Nerds grok Simon. Thinkers relate to Book. The lovelorn sympathize with Kaylee.

zoid, this is a great point! As I was reading this thread, I was thinking how much I love all nine of the characters. None of them annoy me. But when I read your post, I did realize they all had their moments when they rubbed me the wrong way.

Two examples come to mind. I love Zoë, but I was annoyed that she tried to get away with lying to her husband in War Stories. Book’s dig at Simon, in the same episode, for not shooting anyone during the fight irritated me. I think it took a lot of courage for Simon to take up arms, and Book belittled him just to make a joke. I’m sure I could come up with annoying moments for all the characters, even sweet Kaylee.

I’m really enjoying this thread because everyone has such different opinions and views the same thing in so many different ways. It’s fascinating.

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Friday, September 3, 2004 9:52 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
oringinally posted by sikkukut

On the other hand, sometimes the most effective villains are the ones that you really want to like, and those have been thin on the ground in Firefly. Magneto from the X-Men movies and the villain from Alan Moore's Watchmen (not to spoil the ending) are two good examples.

I actually like Magneto in the x-men movies I sympathize with him... I know he's suppose to be the villian but I don't see him that way at all, actually in both movies I've found myself rooting for him..its always a little dissappointing when he doesn't win in the end!!

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Friday, September 3, 2004 10:03 PM

HANDMAIDENANDE

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
someone mentioned before that simon was inept with women..and my response to that was ..but if Simon was in his on world.. we would see someone very ept indeed!! at least I think

See, I’m going to have to disagree here. Simon always seems to be confident with anything to do with medicine and he has become increasingly more comfortable with his new life. However, he’s made comments himself about his lack of skill with women. The first scene in The Message comes to mind. When Kaylee encourages more of his affectionate compliments, he hesitates and says “I don’t know how to…” and then manages to completely ruin the moment. Moments later he admits to Zoë that he’s “not very good at talking to girls”. Handsome, rich, intelligent, consummate doctor? Certainly. Skilled at talking with the ladies? Not so much.

Quote:
I think on an emotional level that River feeds Simon's emotional needs in every way..

This is an interesting observation. Would you mind expanding on this? I’m not seeing how River can feed every emotional need of her brother’s. Simon is focused on keeping his sister safe, searching for answers, trying to make her whole, taking care of his baby sister. He takes comfort in the fact that she’s alive and he may one day be able to cure her. When the stress becomes too much, when he needs to vent or throw things, when he simply needs a word of comfort, who takes care of Simon? He can joke with Kaylee (OiS) about events that happened pre-Serenity, but events in the past seem to be a difficult subject to discuss with his sister (Safe).

Quote:
it would be Kaylee who would be the outcast and feel left out.. and maybe even resentful...she longs to be loved..I don't neccessarily see Kaylee being the type that would be happy being 2nd best...she's to needy..emotionally

Kaylee is an emotional girl. She cries easily and wears her heart on her sleeve, but also takes great joy from life and finds happiness in simple pleasures. Jewel has stated a few times that Kaylee is a big flirt and boy crazy, but I’ve never viewed Kaylee as being needy. Inara said that Kaylee was very dear to all of them. She’s probably the best loved of anyone on the ship in my opinion, so she’s not lacking for affection.

Quote:
would she settle for whatever simon had leftover from River?

That’s the 64,000 platinum question. I say yes. As I said before, Kaylee is surrounded by love every day. And she already cares for River. When Kaylee deepens her relationship with Simon, I see her as becoming the big sister/mother to River, the little sister/child because Simon seems to me more of a parent to his sister.

Yikes, it's late. Hope I was able to convey what I was trying to.

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Saturday, September 4, 2004 3:30 PM

EBONEZER

Who annoied me on the show?

-Dan, the taco bell guy
-John Doe
-Jack (in the box)
-Our local news anchors

Point: Love the show, hate the comercials (and it did seem like there was a lot of them)

-----------------------------------

Four out of five dentists reccomend calling Ebo a girl.

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Saturday, September 4, 2004 3:45 PM

JUPITERBELLE

I would have to definatly agree with Dacute1. Another reason that I don't find any of the main 9 charactors annoying is because everyone has thier own quirks and twists but it's the interaction between the 9. To anyone that doesn't like them thats thier opinion but without the main 9 there really wouldn't be a show.

"No Power in the 'Verse can stop me!"

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Saturday, September 4, 2004 4:36 PM

ZOID

JupiterBelle and fellow 'coats:

Name me a better ensemble cast from a television series. Friends? Cheers? Not nearly as many characters on a regular basis, and not nearly as 3D-ally drawn. Joey and Phoebe (Friends) and Cliff, Carla, Woody and Norm (Cheers) coulda been played by cardboard cutouts. I loved those shows; but, well-developed emotional characters? Nope.

Here's something else: I thought Firefly was more cerebrally witty than Friends, Cheers or even Frasier. The humor in Firefly -- and there's a ton of it in every episode -- is very British, in that it springs from normal conversation, and is more 'turn of phrase'-based, rather than a caricature of human behavior. I never heard anyone tell a 'joke' on the show, but Firefly had me laughing my 'F*x Programming Executive' off, week after week.

Having offered such glowing and well-deserved praise, every time Gina picked up a rifle, holding it under her arm like a long-necked goose and craning her head to the side to aim, it drove me bonkers. I couldn't believe no one on the show would take Ms. Torres aside and show her how to shoot from the shoulder, where one would properly sight down the barrel. The way the Warrior Woman holds her weapons in the show (and stands squared-up in the line of fire) she'd never hit the broad side of a barn and get cut to ribbons by return fire.

Still, Gina makes it easy for me to suspend my disbelief for the sake of dramatic license. I just think, "Well, for a classically trained mezzosoprano, she's probably the baddest-ass opera singer in the world. Let's see Kiri TeKanawa try that sh*t." And really, I find it very difficult to criticise Mrs. Fishburne because -- yikes! -- have you seen her?

I'd take the blue pill if there was some version of the Matrix where she found balding, 46-year-old guys irresistible...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 229 days, 2 hours, 32 minutes, and 31 seconds left until The BDM!

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Saturday, September 4, 2004 5:58 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
orginally posted by HANDMAIDENANDE

See, I’m going to have to disagree here. Simon al
ways seems to be confident with anything to do with medicine and he has become increasingly more comfortable with his new life. However, he’s made comments himself about his lack of skill with women. The first scene in The Message comes to mind. When Kaylee encourages more of his affectionate compliments, he hesitates and says “I don’t know how to…” and then manages to completely ruin the moment. Moments later he admits to Zoë that he’s “not very good at talking to girls”. Handsome, rich, intelligent, consummate doctor? Certainly. Skilled at talking with the ladies? Not so much.

Simon does tend to stick his foot in his mouth..mostly when talking to Kaylee...its not so much that he's saying the wrong thing...its more that he's speaking his mind truthfully, and Kaylee being the emotional and sensative can't always deal with that.....most people who stick their foot in their mouth, do so.. not because they are trying to be mean.. or tactless... but because they blurt out what they are thinking without filtering it... without thinking how the other person might feel..so I don't think its that Simon is saying the wrong thing..its just that he's saying whats on his mind

for example, in the messege when he told her that his options were limited because... every woman on the ship was either married professional, or related to him by blood.....and she (kaylee) was his only option.... Simon was just speaking his mind truthfully..

I believe, if there is any hesitation on Simon's part when conversing with Kaylee it comes as a reflex... he's learning that he has to be careful with her... of how he exspresses himself around her...because he could hurt her feelings

in the world Simon came from..you can tell he was much more authorative being a highly respected doctor at the top of his field he was probably in a leadership position where he was use to speaking his mind .. where he didn't have to filter what he said....on the ship where his status is not what it once was, he's learning he has to be careful how he express himself

I think in Simon's world..there are certain protcols that were observed and followed..while Simon may seem more inept with people in general and espeically women ... I think it was alot easier for him when he was at home ...

I think Kaylee's advances takes him off guard and he doesn't quite know how to deal with her... he doesn't have experience with very foward women...I think in someways Simon is flattered by this ( he's a man)..even if he is at a loss...but on the other hand he see's it for what it is.... limited options on both their parts

Quote:
This is an interesting observation. Would you mind expanding on this? I’m not seeing how River can feed every emotional need of her brother’s. Simon is focused on keeping his sister safe, searching for answers, trying to make her whole, taking care of his baby sister. He takes comfort in the fact that she’s alive and he may one day be able to cure her. When the stress becomes too much, when he needs to vent or throw things, when he simply needs a word of comfort, who takes care of Simon? He can joke with Kaylee (OiS) about events that happened pre-Serenity, but events in the past seem to be a difficult subject to discuss with his sister (Safe).

maybe at this point.. River is unable to feed Simon's emotional needs, because of her condition..I was thinking past-tense.. River at this point maynot be able to fill all of Simon's emotional needs.. but it is obvious that she completely loves him and she does have an understanding of what he's going through even if she can't articulate it in a way that everyone understands....

we saw this in Safe when she tells him ...you gave up everything to find me and you found me broken also in O.I.S when she is reading his mind and he's talking about being at the hospital and he says I would be there now...

River and Simon have a very close bond as we know..and while she can't feed his physical needs ...their history seems to indicate that emotionally they fullfilled eachother..certainly intellectually , they comforted eachother ..they took care of eachother they seemed to totally understand eachother...their lives are intrinsically woven together...I'm sure alot of this comes from them both being genuis..

two very telling signs of this is in Serenity when Simon is talking about River to the crew and he gets all dreamy eyed and lights up...the 2nd is in safe when he's trying to tell his parents that something is wrong because of the letters he got from River...

and his father says I always thought it would be River who was lost without her big brother but I see its the other way around....Of course Gabriel Tam was making light of a very real an accurate concern of Simon's...but it gives you great insight into the Simon, River relationship

Simon is a man driven..part of that could be in his genuis nature... he has a goal oriented mind...his goal and his focus is River..and helping her.. he believes that somewhere there are answers to his questions..and if it takes him the rest of his life to get those answers then so be it...It seems Simon does not think about himself needing to be taken care of..he's to focused on his goal..such is the fate of the driven genuis mind..Simon's one true desire is to help River..to get back what he lost.. what they both lost..if its possible

perhaps the reason why its hard for Simon to talk about his past with Kaylee or anyone..is because River is so much a part of his past.. as I would suspect that she is.. it probably hurts him too much to talk about it... and maybe he doesn't think Kaylee and the rest would understand...

on Serenity when Simon talked about River and got all dreamy ..Jayne especially seem to be almost making fun of him...

Quote:

Kaylee is an emotional girl. She cries easily and wears her heart on her sleeve, but also takes great joy from life and finds happiness in simple pleasures. Jewel has stated a few times that Kaylee is a big flirt and boy crazy, but I’ve never viewed Kaylee as being needy. Inara said that Kaylee was very dear to all of them. She’s probably the best loved of anyone on the ship in my opinion, so she’s not lacking for affection.

I think Kaylee is an emotional girl and very sweet, good natured, easy going.. all very fine qualities..she does seem to get alot of pleasure from the simple things in life ..she is a simple girl..and its been statistically proven that simple minded people are the happiest people in the world...I do see kaylee as kind of needy...I know she just wants to be loved ..but like you said... everyone on the ship loves her...and its easy to see why..maybe thats part of her infatuation with Simon he's kind of aloof maybe she see's him as a challenge... everybody else loves her..as you said she's not lacking in affection..but she also seems to crave it... so why shouldn't Simon love her as everyone else does ..IMO...but this is one of the reasons why I don't think Kaylee would be ok being 2nd best... nor do I think any woman worth her salt should stand for being second best!!

Quote:
That’s the 64,000 platinum question. I say yes. As I said before, Kaylee is surrounded by love every day. And she already cares for River. When Kaylee deepens her relationship with Simon, I see her as becoming the big sister/mother to River, the little sister/child because Simon seems to me more of a parent to his sister.

River and Simon are complicated charactors they've been written that way..with their background and their life and the times in which they live..its just very hard for me to look at them or how they would relate to other people and certainly how they relate to eachother, in such simple terms

I guess I can't wrap my brain around two such interesting charactors being and relating in such a simplistic manner....if that is the case then why bother making them so fascinating and complicated...for me there has to be more to the story....if not them I'm wasting my time!!!

I've never seen anything parental in Simon, River relationship...even with River's condition I see them more as equals..I think that Simon has always been fascinated River...even in her condition he still marvals at her ...a telling scene is right before Simon gets snatched in safe and River goes up on stage and starts to dance.....the look on Simon's face pure delight she learned those steps in a blink of an eye [/]...or when he told the crew he had to check on his Assasin...Simon is a genuis and he says that River made him look like an idoit child,....River has always seen and knew more...

I see Simon as much more complicated..and I preceive the River and Simon bond as being complicated and not as simple..I think emotionally they are tied to eachother.. tied to eachother in such a way that it would be hard for the average person to grasp..I think simon and River need eachother in a way that Simon would not need Kaylee... ( and Kaylee needs to be needed)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that River will always come 1rst on some level with Simon thats how I see it..she is his ideal.. his sister yes.. but also his ideal!!

I guess the whole idea of Simon ,Kaylee is to simplistic, to obvious for my taste... while I like Kaylee I don't find her charactor all that interesting....( although I do think her and Jayne could be fun) I like complicated things, for me Kaylee would common Simon down with her ....particular brand!!

but you could be right..when the movie comes out Joss will probably have Simon kiss Kaylee and declare his undying love ...and there goes my theory down the toliet!!!guess we'll just have to wait and see!

Pjenny

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Saturday, September 4, 2004 6:59 PM

INSIGHT SPINNER

Hey, Piratejenny!

I have to say that all of them annoy me at some point or another because they are so damned independent! LOL. Seriously, that is true.

I think Badger annoys me the most completely. Of our BDHs, it's gotta be Jayne. sometimes I just want to smack him and tell him to sit down and shut the hell up. But he is also loveable.

geri
(JoVan aside -- I just met Renee Elise Goldsberry today -- I'll be posting pics on my web. write me at geripeak@charm.net if you want the link)

insight spinner
__________

Just an object. It doesn't mean what you think....

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Sunday, September 5, 2004 5:10 PM

SEVEREN

Simon irritates me the most. He needs to lighten up and stop acting sooo superior and yet he wants to be accepted. He has a chance with Kaylee yet he can't let go enough to realize he needs to act. If Simon is to continue to hold on to his past life he can never move forward. Actually, he's a lot like a real doctor; pretentious and arrogant. Don't get me wrong, I like the character's influence on the fiction, but you asked.

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Sunday, September 5, 2004 10:08 PM

HANDMAIDENANDE

zoid, may I just say ditto to the first part of your last post. Completely in agreement with your praise of the ensemble cast. My friends and I are recent Browncoats, and we were talking just this afternoon about how wonderful and talented these actors are.

Severen, you’re irritated by Simon?! Off with your head! ;)

PJenny, I hope you don’t mind, but I’m not going to comment on all your points in your previous post. I tend to get chatty and I would be writing until dawn. A few brief things first:

[list]*I adore Simon and River’s relationship. I’m a big supporter of the S/K ‘ship, but not at the expense of the Tams.
*I agree that their relationship is very interesting and complex.
*Also agree that regardless of who *coughKayleecough* if anybody, Simon ends up with, River will come first. Unless, you know, River gets all better and starts dating someone herself.

[/list]

You’re a huge fan of the Simon and River characters and their multifaceted relationship. You said at the beginning of the thread that while you liked the Kaylee character, you find her to be rather annoying. I look at things from a different angle because while I completely related to the intellectual and goal-driven side of Simon, I am so very much like Kaylee. I’m the glass is half-full, always baking cookies, everyone needs a hug type of person that people shake their heads at. Heck, I just turned 32, and one of my best friends still refers to me as “Baby Sister”. (Maybe I should get him to call me mei mei now?) So a lot of the time, I tend to see things from her view mostly because I relate so much to her. Plus, I’m completely in love with Simon so I can live vicariously through Kaylee when they finally get together.

I do want to say how much I’ve enjoyed reading your, and everyone else’s, comments. You see things from a different perspective and while I may disagree with many of your observations, it’s been fun and interesting. It’s amazing that so much discussion can happen (there are over 80 posts so far) about characters we’ve only seen in 14 episodes. Goes to show how wonderful and well-written Firefly is.

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
but you could be right..when the movie comes out Joss will probably have Simon kiss Kaylee and declare his undying love ...and there goes my theory down the toliet!!!

Now you’re talking!

Andé

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Monday, September 6, 2004 8:58 AM

BRUISERSMOM

Kaylee's the most annoying character for me. She reminds me of some of the optimistic, naive high school girls that I knew way back in the day and some of the grown women that I know now. I just keep on waiting for her to have that life changing disappointment that knocks her rose colored glasses off of her head but she's already had so many experiences that should have done it that I don't think that it ever is going to happen.

I would think that all of the crime that the Serenity crew engages in would wake her up but she doesn't seem to think it's wrong. She goes through it with the same wide eyed optimism. You're stealing Kaylee. You're not supposed to do it. Then, there's the killing that happens on board. The police officer, Early. Kaylee was even shot and she still was all sunshine and roses. It was annoying. I would also think that she would get with the program that she and Simon aren't going to work out. She's been chasing him all over Serenity for a year. If Simon were interested, he would have stopped running by now.

That's why Kaylee is annoying to me. I know people like her in real life and their persistent need to see the world through rose colored glasses makes them irritating to be around after a while. I like people who are more realistic about the world. People like Kaylee I just want to slap upside the head after a few debates about life with them and say, "Get with it!"

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Monday, September 6, 2004 4:36 PM

DANFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by BruisersMom:
I know people like her in real life and their persistent need to see the world through rose colored glasses makes them irritating to be around after a while.

That is so strange to me. I don't know anyone like Kaylee! I have always viewed her as an archetype... someone who couldn't really exist because such a personality simply doesn't survive contact with the real world. My thoughts on her ran down two separate paths:

1) I actually was drawn to that almost senseless optimism. In other threads, I've referred to her (and seen her referred to by others) as the "heart" of the crew. She embodied the nurturing, accepting, forgiving part of human nature that the crew needed to stay glued together. If I knew someone who was really like that, I think I would want to keep him/her close to draw upon that strength. Then again, maybe it would so annoy me in real life that I would have to hire a hit man eventually...

2) I realize that this is a simplification, but I believe that Joss had seeded the show with two basic character types: "mysteries," and "watch for growth in this space." Inara, Simon/River, and Book were mysteries. Mal, Zoe/Wash, Jayne, and Kaylee were growth candidates. I suspect, that Kaylee's growth would have involved losing a lot of that innocence and coming face to face with the real world.

Of course, that's all just speculation until the Master himself weighs in with the BDM.

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Monday, September 6, 2004 4:50 PM

FIREFLYWILDCARD1

It's a tie between Inara and Simon.

Inara because only every once in a blue moon is she any kind of help to the crew. She seems to stick her nose up in the air a lot and act like she's "better" than everybody else. *just the way I see her character* The actress is great but the character bugs the snot outta me.

Simon because he was exactly the same at the end of the season as he was at the beginning. He didn't adjust to his situation whatsoever and that bugs me. He should have adapted by at least "Out of Gas". But nope he's still, mostly, living like he did when he was happily ignorant of the Alliance's true ways.

That's just my 2 cents.

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Monday, September 6, 2004 9:25 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
He needs to lighten up and stop acting sooo superior and yet he wants to be accepted. He has a chance with Kaylee yet he can't let go enough to realize he needs to act.

let go of what...could you clarify ...I'm not understanding what he need's to let go of..

to have a chance with Kaylee...you would have to assume that he wants a chance with Kaylee...

Simon has given no indications of wanting to be with Kaylee..its Kaylee who is constantly in his face..making hints..and trying to get a reaction out of him...honestly she's in his face so much with the come on's...so far all I've seen is Simon trying to be nice to her..but he hasn't encouraged her

kaylee should turn her attentions to Jayne..she might be pleasantly surprised...I get the feeling that underneath Jaynes tough exterior ..he's big softy....

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Monday, September 6, 2004 9:32 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
...I get the feeling that underneath Jaynes tough exterior ..he's big softy....

But Jayne belongs to Simon, to go by his reaction to the manly clap on the shoulder in Ariel

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 1:34 AM

SASJA

Quote:
Originally posted by danfan:
I realize that this is a simplification, but I believe that Joss had seeded the show with two basic character types: "mysteries," and "watch for growth in this space." Inara, Simon/River, and Book were mysteries. Mal, Zoe/Wash, Jayne, and Kaylee were growth candidates. I suspect, that Kaylee's growth would have involved losing a lot of that innocence and coming face to face with the real world.

Of course, that's all just speculation until the Master himself weighs in with the BDM.

I think they're all "growth candidates" - Book will learn about the real world, Inara will learn to let her emotions out, River will slowly begin to heal and Simon will become a man. It's just that some growth candidates have mysteries

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 1:41 AM

FIREFLYWILDCARD1

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Simon has given no indications of wanting to be with Kaylee..its Kaylee who is constantly in his face..making hints..and trying to get a reaction out of him...honestly she's in his face so much with the come on's...so far all I've seen is Simon trying to be nice to her..but he hasn't encouraged her

On the contrary, in the episode The Message, Simon is trying to compliment Kaylee. However he messes it up, and then tells Zoe that he was never good at talking to girls. And Zoe asks him if he's ever been good at talking to anybody.

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:28 PM

DANFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
But Jayne belongs to Simon, to go by his reaction to the manly clap on the shoulder in Ariel

LOL!

Ohmigosh... we just crossed the line into a slash thread!

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 3:02 PM

ZOID

sasja wrote:

Quote:
I think they're all "growth candidates" - Book will learn about the real world, Inara will learn to let her emotions out, River will slowly begin to heal and Simon will become a man. It's just that some growth candidates have mysteries

I agree, but:
1. Book will learn to trust himself and other human beings again. He knew more about the 'real world' than he wanted to; that's why he joined the monastery.
2. Inara will trust someone enough to talk about her problems. Others have said they believe she is sick, I believe she is having a crisis of faith over her profession. Apart from selling her body, I think she's also an occasional assassin (think 'Zhora' from "Bladerunner"). Getting that off her tiny chest will heal her.
3. River will slowly become the strategic weapon that Alliance/BlueSun intended her to be when they applied their surgical techniques upon her. Unfortunately for them, she will be pointed at them, not wielded by them.
4. Simon will have a sex change. Gotta go with PurpleBelly on this one. His new name will be 'Simone' and she will make tons of money in video entertainments. Her career will be guided by a Svengali who looks a lot like Michael Corleone; but who doesn't act nearly so well.

Seriocomically,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 226 days, 4 hours, 12 minutes, and 9 seconds left until The BDM!

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