Did Simon Lie ? by piratejenny

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Did Simon Lie ?

POSTED BY: PIRATEJENNY
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 20:24
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Thursday, September 9, 2004 7:40 AM

Simon seems to know more about River then what he's telling...In safe when River told about what happened to the little girl..which is the reason she was going to be burned at the stake....Simon was aware then that River was physic then....

Also he knew River was telling the truth about Jayne setting them up to be caught on Ariel ... thats why he had Jayne on the table ....

But in OIS when Mal and the rest of the crew got together to discuss River Simon fiened like he was ignorant..and we know he's not...

so my question is ....Is Simon hiding something ..is he not telling more then he knows about River..I think he is

why would he be less then honest about River

I'm still not convinced that he and Book are working together

has anyone else speculated why Simon wasn't honest with the rest of the crew

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 7:51 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
has anyone else speculated why Simon wasn't honest with the rest of the crew

They're a bunch of crooks. Well, those that aren't covert agents of political factions.

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 8:03 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

My guess is that Simon has some theories on what was done to River, but he does not strike me as the type to speculate until he has done more research and has facts to back him up.

As for his playing dumb about River, I think he would do anything to protect his sister, include leaving the crew in the dark. I do not think he is completely sure what was done to River, but I think he is on his way to finding out.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 8:42 AM

THALOS

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:

Also he knew River was telling the truth about Jayne setting them up to be caught on Ariel ... thats why he had Jayne on the table ....

But in OIS when Mal and the rest of the crew got together to discuss River Simon fiened like he was ignorant..and we know he's not...

has anyone else speculated why Simon wasn't honest with the rest of the crew

The reason Jayne is on Simon's operating table is that during "Trash" Jayne gets an electric shock that causes him to fall and hurt himself during the reprogramming of the garbage bin. Also, Simon is in the top 3% in his class, smart guy, can figure out based on River's commment that Jayne was guilty.

I would have to agree with BC1. Simon has shown his protective nature when it comes to River. In OIS, the crew meets to discuss Rivers fate because she had just unassumingly picked up a Desert Eagle and was pointing it at crew members in the cargo bay. Simon's view is to fix and protect his sister, so his tactic of "feigning ignorance" to buy himself some time to get concrete answers as to what is wrong with River, seems like a calculated move by Simon.

"Whoa, good Bible."

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 11:40 AM

CORWYN

I think your premise is completely wrong. Simon doesn't know River is psychic. You could just as well say that he knows she is a witch.

That River discovered what the problem was with Ruby may be remarkable (or simple and mundane as it didn't seem to be a big secret), but that no more makes her psychic than it makes her a witch. Simon is a man of science and it will take more than that to convince him of such an improbable hypothesis. He has dealt with River (before and after her 'surgeries') more than anyone else. Was she psychic when she told him that his textbook was wrong? Was she psychic when she corrected his spelling at three years old. Yes he is in the top 3%... and River makes him (and all of us) look like an idiot child.

Thank You Kindly.

p.s. Simon does lie about River and will of course continue to do so if he thinks it appropriate.

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 12:44 PM

THEREALME

I am of the opinion that Simon is lying to himself. In Safe, he protested to the witch-burners that River was just very intuitive. I don't think that he is ready to admit to himself that she might be psychic, at least until he can prove such a thing.

The Real Me

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 1:42 PM

THEGREYJEDI

Quote:
Originally posted by Thalos:
In OIS, the crew meets to discuss Rivers fate because she had just unassumingly picked up a Desert Eagle and was pointing it at crew members in the cargo bay.

I don't think she was pointing it at anyone. As I recall, she was just holding it, looking at it. "It's just an object. It's not what you think." The crew was concerned because a paranoid schitzophrenic was holding a gun at all. The reaction was more of one you'd expect from folk finding out one of their kids got ahold of a gun, not "Oh my God she's pointing guns at folk."

ON topic: I think Simon has the best grasp of River's abilities, provoked by her treatment and not provoked by her treatment at the academy. Correcting his spelling and knowing the texbook is wrong were things she did in early childhood. She has an amzing mind. Like Kaylee said, she just did the math. It's somewhat hard to wrap around the brain, but she can do that kind of physics instinctually. Performing on the spot vector calculations with the same natural ease as you or I would have in walking or breathing. This is something that is difficult for anyone to remember when watching these episodes. She sees and breathes and senses the world in a way we can't. I think Simon knows this best. And like has been said, he'd do anything to protect his little sister.

--------------------------------------------------
http://tomeofgrey.blogspot.com

http://www.jed-soft.com Gamer Rigs, Budget Prices

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 1:51 PM

CORWYN

It amazes me that the same people who ridicule the hill folk as ignorant for thinking that River is a witch, are prepared to believe she is psychic on exactly the same evidence . One doesn't seem intrinsically more likely to me.

Thank You Kindly.

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 2:47 PM

BROWNCOATFAN1

um i dont think that simon is working with book secrety, i do think that for the protection of his little sis he is hiding more form the whole crew

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 3:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I think Sinon simply doesn't know yet WHAT to make of River. He knows some of what they've done to River, and how they cut on her. 'She feels everything..she can't not.' - or there abouts. Simon has an idea of what that area of the brain does, but not being a specialist , he can't say for certain just what they did and how it affected his sister.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 4:27 PM

DRAGONFLYDIRECTOR

Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:
It amazes me that the same people who ridicule the hill folk as ignorant for thinking that River is a witch, are prepared to believe she is psychic on exactly the same evidence . One doesn't seem intrinsically more likely to me.

Thank You Kindly.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Now, I will admit River's abilities are not really 'tech' per-se. If you will, allow me this bit of allusion to make my point.

To begin with, your use of the word 'ignorant' is correct. For example - Simple folk would think a flying machine is a demon or god, if they had never been exposed to that 'tech' before. Therefore they are 'ignorant' of that facet of science and have a tendency to ascribe a mythological meaning to it. Check out something (Google it) called the Cargo Cult and you will see a prime real-life example of what I mean.

Back to River - You have to define what you mean by 'witch'. The villagers - especially the 'Elder' uses that term to insure River is destroyed before any other 'dirty laundry' is aired. Calling someone a 'witch' had been, historically, a method if ridding a society of an 'undesirable'person. Used, historically specific - 'dark ages Dentists/Surgeons in ridding their towns of mid-wives and healers who stole business away from them, by having them labeled as a witch.

Simon notes in "Ariel" that a 'filter' in River's brain has been 'turned off' (the aforementioned 'tech') through surgery. That filter allows a person to ignore input and process what is important to the individual. River cannot do this -- she sees, hears, feels EVERYTHING. Now with her inherent uber-genius, she can make connections and 'predict the future'.

I am very sure other tech/science aspects of River's psychic abilities (mind reading and the like - look up 'Cold Reading' for some nifty info) would have been discussed (like in "Ariel") if the show had been allowed to continue.

Simon is our 'eyes' of science, he is a genius too, remember! So his observations will be grounded in the physical world and less of the spiritual or supernatural.

To the question of this thread: No, Simon did not lie. He witheld information. That is not lying.

"Observe Analyze & Respond"
Motto of the A.P.E.s
Alliance Protean Engineers

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 6:07 PM

THEREALME

Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:
It amazes me that the same people who ridicule the hill folk as ignorant for thinking that River is a witch, are prepared to believe she is psychic on exactly the same evidence . One doesn't seem intrinsically more likely to me.

Thank You Kindly.

Well, I believe that it is clear that River is a psychic (I'll gladly resurrect the thread with my thesis on this issue). This seems to be an outgrowth of her incredible brain and the tampering done by her captors. That is to say, some natural ability that we do not yet understand.

I think it is ignorant that these villagers are assuming some demonic or mystical force is involved.

The Real Me

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 7:23 PM

FIREGUARDIAN

I think Simon has noticed patterns in River's behavior, but is uncertain what to make of them.
He is still "collating data."

I think we need to define what we are talking about when we say "psychic." Mal says that River is a "reader" -- that she can read minds -- telepathy -- not that she can predict the future.

In Safe she would have to have been reading memories or something else to know what she does about Ruby and the Patron.

Oddly enough River seems to have strong connection with Mal. She seems to more often react when something bad is happening to him (or Simon) than therest of the crew. Notice even when Book is shot in Safe that River reacts when Mal sees it, not when it occurs. The connection with Simon is to be expected. The connection with Mal is fascinating. Even though Mal thinks she is a bit crazy, he listens to her comments and begins to realize the connections her comments have.

However, is telepathy all that is involved here?
Or is there clairvoyance or some other psychic phenomena as well?

Remember River says "Fire" in out of gas as the fire ball is building but before anyone else knew about it. She could not have gotten that by reading anyone's mind.

And River's comments in Ariel about them stealing Christmas may have meant that she could no longer have the joy of being surprised by the presents because she could not avoid knowing what they are.

But obviously River does not know the future or this crew would stay out of trouble more than they do. But she may "see" things in the present that most of us could not see (clairvoyance).

Darlene Cypser
Inferno Film Productions, LLC

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Friday, September 10, 2004 5:15 AM

CORWYN

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Well, I believe that it is clear that River is a psychic (I'll gladly resurrect the thread with my thesis on this issue). This seems to be an outgrowth of her incredible brain and the tampering done by her captors. That is to say, some natural ability that we do not yet understand.

I think it is ignorant that these villagers are assuming some demonic or mystical force is involved.

You admit you don't understand it. So, you ascribe it to your higher power (Technology) while the villagers ascribe it to their higher power (God/Satan). I fail to see any difference between the two.

I am just ignorant, (and prepared to admit it).

Thank You Kindly.

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Friday, September 10, 2004 5:30 AM

WYDRAZ

Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:
I fail to see any difference between the two.

The difference is not in the Power, but in how the people around her percieve or suspect how she will use that Power. The villagers were fearful and superstitious. The crew is more hopeful.

It doesn't matter what you call her Power, or even what its source is. What matters is how people react to it.

Oh, and play Strange Adventures in Infinite Space. http://digital-eel.com/sais

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Friday, September 10, 2004 4:10 PM

THEREALME

Not quite the same thing, Corwyn. I would admit that I don't understand River's abilities YET, and more importantly I ascribe no moral judgement on the abilities.

The villagers seemed to regard River as having an evil power, or being a servant of evil, and (familiar with the type) I think that they would not WANT to try to understand (and thereby be "contaminated by evil" themselves).

While in real life I do not believe in ESP, psychic ability, or magic, if confronted with some obvious manifestation of any of those, my first thought, I believe, would be curiosity.

Yes, if magic existed, then you could apply the scientific method to try to understand it!

The Real Me

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Friday, September 10, 2004 4:24 PM

SGTGUMP

She turned me into a newt.

I got better.

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Saturday, September 11, 2004 1:01 AM

NICOLACLARKE

Quote:
Originally posted by wydraz:

The difference is not in the Power, but in how the people around her percieve or suspect how she will use that Power. The villagers were fearful and superstitious. The crew is more hopeful.

I'm not too sure. Seemed to me that the crew were somewhat uncomfortable (where they weren't outright derisive) with the idea, too.

Not sure that she is 'psychic' per se, if only because the crew have now guessed that, which tends to indicate that the truth will be even stranger and more interesting.

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Saturday, September 11, 2004 6:55 AM

KURUKAMI

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Also he knew River was telling the truth about Jayne setting them up to be caught on Ariel ... thats why he had Jayne on the table ....

But in OIS when Mal and the rest of the crew got together to discuss River Simon fiened like he was ignorant..and we know he's not...

I think the big portion of it is that, despite what certain people associated with the creation of Firefly would say, all evidence points to "Trash" and "The Message" coming after "Objects in Space", chronologically. The other part's covering for family.

"Sir, I would like to gingerly point out that it is difficult for someone to be gently reassuring when they're holding three and a half feet of sharpened steel."

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Saturday, September 11, 2004 7:48 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Yes, if magic existed, then you could apply the scientific method to try to understand it!

Actually it's a little more complicated than the scientific method will allow. Think of Love for example, something most of us will agree exists. There are those people whom we say we "love" and people we know we do not. We fall in love with certain people and we won't with others. The principle of this is beyond science. Science is fundamentally a process of generalization and love cannot be generalized. It exists between two unique individuals, under unique circumstances, in a very specific time frame. Say you were studying a subject who was in love with someone. On a given day your findings could be absolutely at odds with your findings the day before, depending on the mood of your subject. Or perhaps your subject grows to dislike you, so that would skew the data and reduce responsiveness. Or your subject falls in love with you and suddenly all your pet theories are miraculously proved true by the subject's subconscious wish to please.

Now, say your subject is psychic. Suppose that psychic ability ebbs and flows as a person loves or feels loved. So, one day your subject is in love and feeling very loved in return and she is able to perform whatever psychic test of yours with ease. Then the next day she's just had a fight with her lover and she has a cold and she thinks it's because she's been doing all these damn psychic tests. Scientifically, you wouldn't get anything like reliable data, but that wouldn't prove that the phenomenon didn't exist. On the contrary, something so commonplace, so fundamental to our experience--to our very survival--as love cannot be quantified. Only crazy people and some very unimaginative scientist do not believe love exists.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, September 11, 2004 8:48 PM

THEREALME

Good analogy. But if ENOUGH data were collected, I think at the very least you could put forth and test theories.

With love or with ESP!

The Real Me

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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 7:41 AM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
And River's comments in Ariel about them stealing Christmas may have meant that she could no longer have the joy of being surprised by the presents because she could not avoid knowing what they are.

I'm finding this whole discussion very interesting

The christmas thing in Ariel wasn't about River..it was about Jayne.. it was Jayne who got Christmas taken away from him...she was either reading his mind or reading him and seeing something from his past...

If anyone is intrested in this sort of thing read a book called
Past Lived Future Lives by Jenny Cockell...

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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:36 AM

RAVENWHYTEWING

Hmmmm.

I haven't the tools to aptly describe the amount of sympathy for River. I have a sort of empathy, nothing psychic or mindreading, but enough to sense how someone is feeling at that time, and often find myself feeling the same way. Generally, it's limited to touching someone-skin to skin contact. But when it's a large group, it sometimes projects into a turrent of emotion. I have often passed out in the middle of a crowd, in such simple settings as a bus or the middle of a street, and woken up in a hospital. My doctors have given several different theories on the matter-stress, overactivity of my nueral system. Psychotherapists attribute it to a sort of "mob claustriphobia," which is a way of saying, "You're afraid of a sea of people."
I have seen African shamans of every degree, I've met with cardinals in Rome, I've visited varying Wicca practitioners. All of them have an answer for my Sixth Sense. None of them agree with one another.
I've never dreamed out prophesies, I don't cast spells, I was never a strong believer in any church. I stopped taking any pills that should have helped, and I got tired of talking with the counselor. So I've accepted the fact that what I have, no one seems to give me a good answer. Nobody understands why sometimes, I'm just as paternal as they are, or why when I'm with anyone I don't seem to be the same person as someone else. But it's mine to bear. I define it as empathy. And that's good enough for me.

We can't all be heroes, since some of us have to sit at the curb and clap as they go by.

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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 7:08 PM

THEREALME

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Quote:
And River's comments in Ariel about them stealing Christmas may have meant that she could no longer have the joy of being surprised by the presents because she could not avoid knowing what they are.

I'm finding this whole discussion very interesting

The christmas thing in Ariel wasn't about River..it was about Jayne.. it was Jayne who got Christmas taken away from him...she was either reading his mind or reading him and seeing something from his past...

If anyone is intrested in this sort of thing read a book called
Past Lived Future Lives by Jenny Cockell...

There is a fellow on the Serenity board calling himself "The Almanac" who has compiled a timeline of the Firefly 'Verse (quite a scholarly effort) and he calculates that Ariel occurs in the middle of December 2517. The comment about Christmas being taken away might just be about the real Christmas.

The Real Me

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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 7:09 PM

THEREALME

Sorry, RWW. That sounds pretty rough.

The Real Me

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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:24 PM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Raven,

Thanks for posting. It can be tough posting that kind of information online. I too have found it hard to find poeple who really want to know me and not just tell me who I am (quite a big difference there). So many poeple want to diagnose something that doesn't need diagnosing.

Sounds to me like all those folks you talked to needed to have their horizons broadened and you helped to do that. I get the sense you were called to teach them more than the other way around.

Anyway, it's funny coming at Firefly with an orientation like yours or mine. Most folks have to work to get their minds around what River is, but my feeling was more along the lines of "Hmm, there's one of us on this show. Great! I hope they get it right..."

Anyway, there sure ain't no owner's manual for a gift like yours. I'm so glad to hear you've come to accept it.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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