Book: Hero or Villain? by Lofwyrr

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Book: Hero or Villain?

POSTED BY: LOFWYRR
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 20:26
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 8728
PAGE 1 of 1

Saturday, August 28, 2004 8:48 AM

So, most of the stuff I've seen on here about Book's past comes from the ident card fiasco in "Safe", which seems to imply some kind of allegience to the Alliance.
I was talking to my dad the other day about Firefly, and he came up with a different theory.
"Seems to me that a priest based in an abbey shouldn't be able to just leave and wander about without a definite mission. So that leaves a couple options. First, Book isn't just a priest. Maybe he's high enough ranking in the religous heirarchy, arch-bishop, cardinal, pope-like in his standing. If the church is as powerful in the future as it is today, the Alliance would keep track, and that could be the reason for their timely help with the gunshot wound."
"But why, then, would he stay on the ship with know criminals? Aside from the Bible, which says those are the people that most need his help, what if he had a reason for being on that particular ship? What if the church knows about what was going on with River? What if the Shepard was sent to help her specifically after she was rescued? There is quite a lot of time in the series where Simon, at least, is not around River, and the smile that River gives Book in "Jaynestown" when Book says "I think we've been developing a rapport" could be indicative of something going on that isn't shown on screen.

Just something to think about.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 28, 2004 9:09 AM

CHILLI

Excellent theory.

I personally don't correspond to the belief that Book is either a Hero or a Villain. I don't think the lines are that clear cut in the Jossverse, particularly in Firefly.

My personal theory is that Book was a General during the Alliance vs. Browncoats war. He witnessed some horrible things during the war, maybe the loss of a loved one.

He packed it in, and decided to become a Priest. To maybe atone for what he did, or for what he failed to do.

He might be aiming to make peace with Mal, a Browncoat. That's why he is there in my estimation.

I could be wrong...

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 28, 2004 2:25 PM

CORNCOBB

I once believed that Book was a good guy, despite his obvious connections to the Alliance, and would still like to believe he's decent because he's such an easily likeable character. But the moment in Objects in Space where River read his mind convinced me otherwise. When he said "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not, so where does that put you?" it sent a chill down my spine. It was just so at odds with the character as we'd seen him so far, and the face he showed to the rest of the crew. Sorry to any Book fans out there, I think he's a great character, but I don't trust him.

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 28, 2004 5:55 PM

THEGREYJEDI

Whatever his past is, Book is a reformed bad guy. He once was a not nice person, maybe a bounty hunter. Jubal Early seemed to recognize him. Either way, he witnessed or was ordered to do something so terrible he looked at his shadow and immediately sought the light. He took refuge in God. I also think that it's possible that he knows something about River. But I think I have to go with the former bounty hunter. Used to be a bad guy, knows all that bad guy stuff. But he's an honest to God preacher now.

--------------------------------------------------
http://tomeofgrey.blogspot.com

http://www.jed-soft.com Gamer Rigs, Budget Prices

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 28, 2004 8:55 PM

THEREALME

I still think that Book (under whatever his real name is) was responsible for the Alliance win at Serenity Valley, and the horrible way the troops of both sides were treated afterward caused him to turn his back on his life and seek God. And yes, I think that Book was not a nice person at all in those days. I trust him now, however.

The Real Me

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 29, 2004 5:51 AM

CARDIE

My theory, as I've stated before, is that he used to be an Alliance Operative, like the antagonist in the BDM. I also believe that he's truly found God and reformed. The theory of others that he might be part of the underground that helped Simon free River and be along on Serenity to protect her also has merit in my, uh, book.

Cardie

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 29, 2004 7:44 AM

STICKGIRL

My take on Book is rather detailed and a bit longish to put on this site. It is in my live journal along with other long essays about Firefly at; http://www.livejournal.com/~bhadrasvapna/

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 29, 2004 8:15 AM

PIRATEJENNY

I think Book is in the grey area..I think he is more hero then villain...but I also think he knows alot more probably about the Tam's then we know..basically I think Book is good..but he's also not what he seems

Quote:
"But why, then, would he stay on the ship with know criminals? Aside from the Bible, which says those are the people that most need his help, what if he had a reason for being on that particular ship? What if the church knows about what was going on with River? What if the Shepard was sent to help her specifically after she was rescued?

I like that theory..it could be that he was follwing Simon that day when he got on Sernity..and he is there to look after them and make sure they stay safe from the alliance..rememer in Bushwacked..when the alliance Captain specifically questioned Book..about River and Simon being on the ship...I always thought that was kind of odd

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 29, 2004 1:11 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I like your theory, piratejenny. Didn't Book arrive first on Serenity though? Perhaps Book and Simon are in cahoots, (the good kind) and Simon was following the preacher's lead as to which ship to get on... to make sure the way was safe.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:02 PM

CORWYN

Book is Book. (or at least called Book).

Villain or Hero seems too small a set of possibilities.

Ties with alliance don't automatically make someone a villain.

Jubal doesn't 'recognize' him. He says "That's no shepherd" not "He's no shepherd."

I also don't buy the Simon/Book cohoots theory. Doesn't match what we've seen.

Thank You Kindly.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:16 PM

THEGREYJEDI

The reason why I think Jubal recognizes him is because it's not like someone can look at a man in priest garb and say "He's no preacher." Seems a little odd that he could make that judgement off hand.

--------------------------------------------------
http://tomeofgrey.blogspot.com

http://www.jed-soft.com Gamer Rigs, Budget Prices

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 30, 2004 8:52 AM

CORWYN

Quote:
Originally posted by TheGreyJedi:
The reason why I think Jubal recognizes him is because it's not like someone can look at a man in priest garb and say "He's no preacher." Seems a little odd that he could make that judgement off hand.

It is odd. It is supposed to be odd. It puts Early above the crew who just have vague feelings along that line.

My point on phrasing, is that I can't imagine anyone using such an impersonal form of address for someone that even know of. I could never say for instance "Father Guido Sarducci. That's no shepherd." I would have to say "HE's no shepherd." Treating a person so much like an object requires no connection, however remote (plus a bit of psychotic tendencies

Thank You Kindly.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 30, 2004 9:07 AM

DANFAN

My take on Jubal's comment about Book is this: He didn't know Book or recognize him specifically from some prior encounter. I think Jubal just saw a "kindred spirit." One predator recognizing another in passing... even if the other is really a reformed predator.

Still has the smell of meat about him, so to speak.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 30, 2004 9:15 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:
He says "That's no shepherd" not "He's no shepherd."

Book is a mechanoid?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 30, 2004 3:47 PM

BROWNCOATFAN1

um iam not realy sure, there is defently something he is not telling the rest of the crew. i think that he was once in the alliance b/c of the episode when he was shot and alliance took him into suryery no ?s asked. he showed them a id card. ( which prop had all his info on it telling the med peps who he realy was.)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 28, 2004 3:00 AM

BOOKSWORD

Quote:
My take on Jubal's comment about Book is this: He didn't know Book or recognize him specifically from some prior encounter. I think Jubal just saw a "kindred spirit." One predator recognizing another in passing... even if the other is really a reformed predator.

Still has the smell of meat about him, so to speak.
.)

I like that, I still maintain that a man of that much skill and knowledge must have at least some powerful ties in the Alliance.
But what he did to gain those ties is the question.

So Jubals comment was kind of a sleek and hungry panther sneering at a tired and wiser lion.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 28, 2004 4:32 PM

JEST

I think that saying Book was with the Alliance at Serenity Valley is just simply too easy. Why? Because it is the best answer! Its the answer that fits most of the given facts, but since when has Joss ever settled for leaving us without a twist?
A friend of mine theorized that he was a third party sent to look after River. After all, those that freed her may still have an agenda about her. That would support the "I don't care if your innocent or not theory."
It also supports why he wasn't looking at destinations with the ships. Perhaps he only knew that Simon Tam had been reported to be going with a FireFly...
Personally, I think that is a bit far out.
Besides, he is all set and ready to leave Simon and River behind when Inara first grabs them to evacuate on that first episode. He can't be there for them if he is leaving so easily.
Another reason I don't think he was nessasarily a general with the Alliance. If he was particularly high up, his face would be known. I live in a military town, and its a very small community really (the military I mean). Especially for someone so very high in rank.
But perhaps in intelligence. Set high enough there, but isolated enough that he could legitmately respond to Inara with a bit of 'Uh. Companion. Ummm.' and yet know all the details about weapons, ships and Niska.
And about Jubal recognizing? From what I'd gathered, Jubal was a very methodical man. He knew Serenity's crew. He guessed the reaction and best way to nuetralize /all/ of them (Kaylee's fear of rape - think she was attacked before, btw or that was just a normal reaction? Simon's desire to turn the tables and likely hood to work with Jubal to wait for that chance, Inara's attempt to get in his head on the shuttle).
So, I think his statement was based on more than just feel, but on facts.
And, on the contrary - Jubal had been stressing things as Objects. The weight of them. The way they interact. That distant view seems to be part of his mind set. I can very well see him looking at Book, knowing his real name, and still saying "That".
Especially if Book /does/ have a bad rep.
I'll hush now. Obviously you can tell I'm a Jubal fan. :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 28, 2004 10:20 PM

THEREALME

Let's take a different sort of look at Book.

From a literary point of view, what is Book in the "western" genre?

Perhaps he is the retired gunfighter. The guy who was one of the best, whom all others measured themselves against (often by trying to outshoot him to make a name for themselves).

Book could be the guy who is tired of it all and is TRYING to retire, but life, and circumstances, just keep pulling him back.

Now I don't mean to suggest that Book was literally a gunfighter in the 'verse, but I do think that the character fills that role in a western.

The Real Me

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 12:41 AM

SHEPHERDQ

Quote:
Originally posted by Corncobb:
But the moment in Objects in Space where River read his mind convinced me otherwise. When he said "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not, so where does that put you?" it sent a chill down my spine.

I still have the view that River was seeing the past. and that the vision she got was back when Book was in the war ( on the wrong side ). I think he has to do and saw way to much and that is what drove him to religion and the Abbey. And that vision we see is when he perhaps caught up to those in power that gave the orders and they pleaded innocent, as in following orders. He perhaps had a face to face to extract payment for the bad orders.
Opposite of Mal, Book found religion in the war
and Mal lost it.
As to going on a mission, during history many leave the "sect" for a time to decide if things are right for them and they truly wish to go forward ( even nins do that ). But from his "walk the world ahile" comment I think he has decided he needs to go out, see how the world is now and be of some help so he can begin to atone.

The Journey is the worthier part.
www.southdownabbey.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:59 AM

JUSTME

The comment about "Bushwacked" reminds me of another discrepancy: Why did the feds seem to know him and consider him so important as to deserve immediate medical attention in "Safe", but he was treated as just another suspect to interrogate in "Bushwacked"? Maybe his 'important status' only goes so far?

Or maybe we are shown him being interrogated so we don't catch on to his deeper dark role on the show?

Or maybe the wet-behind-the-ears Fed Captain in "Bushwacked" just didn't get the memo of who makes the elite list?

JustMe

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:40 AM

BOOKSWORD

I dont think there was a memo out. I think Book past lies in intelligence. His knowledge about the more underworldly aspects of the universe does point to this.

I think that he got the special treatment because he flashed his ident card and they read it. If he had some sort of intelligence past the card whould be useful to get what he needs (ie treatment or alliance intel ) but still retain his cover.

I think in bushwhacked if he flashed his card he would have been the one doing the questions.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 5, 2004 3:21 AM

JUSTME

Regarding Book's possible "secret agent card": I would think the Feds would find it on him, as I imagine that prisoners accused of so heinous a crime would be essentially strip-searched (although maybe in high-tech, scanner-like way. If he was Intellgence, they would know.

Of course, that assumes that high-tech doesn't cut both ways, as anyone who has seen a Bond movie knows is untrue. Maybe his secret agent card *itself* has a secret identity, looking like and reading as belonging to "Brother Book, Southdown Abbey" in normal times, and reverting to "Agent Book, 003.5" when the proper code is traced on its surface or something like that?

Its also possible the purple bellies *did* know he was intelligence, just not *military* intelligence, so the usual inter-service rivalry was applied and he therefore got interrogated like the rest of them, just to be annoying. Fiction (and probably real life) is filled with scenes of FBies interrogating CIA/NSA/DIA/etc spys and vice versa.

JustMe

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 5, 2004 10:02 AM

BOOKSWORD

Hmmm, I never thought of that. That is entirely possible.

A whole Pissing contest between agencies.

Some of their questions where leaning towards ' What is your current mission' kind of vein.

Dam Fox for cancelling the show before we could get any answers!!!

Still , theory is fun.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:28 PM

LUNAKITTY

Hero. I think he's a character looking for some redemption after a career/philosophy change. Maybe things just got too out of hand and he finally scared himself enough to go a new direction. Plus Kaylee picked him out of the crowd, and he found a quick respect for her and her respect for Serenity (and therefore the crew). Then again, there is the whole evil Kaylee theory and they could be in cahoots.

Nah i just find them too sincere. I am sick of people being evil

, it's getting too easy--maybe now Joss will surprise us by keeping a whole crew non-evil (besides Jayne's straying that was quickly reigned in), wouldn't that be shocking!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
River: Is it time to go to sleep again?
Simon: No, mei-mei, it's time to wake up.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:46 PM

THERON

Hi everyone, I have my own personal theory about who Book was before he became a preacher. I believe he went by the name of Shaun Yu the psychotic dictator. (not sure of the spelling)
This fits the argument of him being a reformed person trying to make his way in the world and test the strength of his faith. I will not reiterate the rest of the argument here but link to it on another thread on this site if anyone would be interested in reading it. It is to long to try writing out again.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=7257&m=94108#94108

I will say this, I do not believe he was a soilder on either side of the war, an intelligence officer for either side, or a federal marshall. Those answers seem a little to trite and pat for me to believe.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:06 PM

FENRIS357

I think hero or villian is VERY fluid in all of wedons work. people swap side alot. as for his past I'm thinking ex- military intel or specail forces for the alliance. he knows too much about tactics and weapons to be basic infantry or a staff officer, both are specailists in other feilds.
using preacher garb as a disguise is has impressive historical presidence, english intel did during both world wars, soviet agents used preist vestments extensivly during the cold war and the hala (not sure on thte spelling arabic female dress) has been used upto the prestent day by isreali intel.

I dont belive he still is think hes on the lame just like the rest of the crew. he realized he was in a peck of gut shot trouble and hopped his ident wouldn't through up any flags when he used it to get treatment. intell types DONT like to have others know there buiness

still maybe hes just a wandering missionary that reads military tactics and weapons books in his spare time and likes old ships. So hes not who he seems to be, but then again who really is?

no matter where you go there you are. enjoy the sites, the sounds and the mint julip and if you meet someone you like let em know.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 7, 2004 8:28 AM

DEBBIEBUK1

Reading this thread made me go back and watch OiS again over my lunch break - I think Early recognises Book as not just a preacher from the time he spends attached to the outside of the ship listening to Kaylee tell the crew about River. I think Ealry might be able to see them too, hard to tell. If you watch Book there he doesn't seem surprised by Kaylee's tale, just thoughtful. Almost resigned.

Also reading the script for Safe there's a comment about the ident card reader overriding some security or something can't remember the exact words.

My feeling is still that Book was some sort of senior intelligence field agent or policeman, thoroughly believed in the status quo and was actively enforcing it (hence the "I don't give a hump" comment). Then he found out something, possibly about the sort of programme River was on, or maybe that the Reavers started as a deliberate attempt to provide special combat teams (not a theory, just thought I'd mention them as something gone wrong with the world), and he had a change of heart. Went to the Abbey to get his head together, retiring with some sort of honour, but really he's a man of action and his heart is in the outside world. I don't believe he knew anything about River specifically which made him join Serenity, he just liked the ship and Kaylee's enthusiasm. One of those serendipitous (? spelling) coincidences which makes for a good story.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 7, 2004 5:24 PM

DUEY

'Book' is definitely a hero. The person Book was before he became Book- well, that's the question.

His knowledge of tactics, weaponry and marksmanship identify him as having played the game before (and remarkably well). In what capacity, we don't know, but there's no doubt he was a player (energy net, Alliance jurisdiction, kneecaps, rabbits for stew, etc.).

I personally subscribe to the common major Alliance bad guy theory who became so disgusted he withdrew and converted. It makes the most sense.

Unlike some other opinions, however, I DO believe that Book is now genuinely seeking repentance and has become a new person. We've seen too many scenes of him by himself praying or reading the Bible by himself for it to be just an act.

I think River's glimpse of his thoughts was a glimmer of his past life coming through- he's tortured by the dark things he's done in his past, and that was bubbling through. He wasn't looking at HER as he said it, after all, as Simon did when directing his thoughts at River. He was snarling down, but not at her direction. I have no doubt that the man he was thought or did something like that, but not Book.

Faith became real enough to him to change him. I love him because of his nuances, his kindness, his faith, and the fact that he's a legitimate Christian badass, in all senses of the word. :)

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. Not as the world gives, give I unto you. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not be afraid." --John 14:27

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 8, 2004 2:59 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

See I have always seen Book as kind of the man w/ a past that haunts him. Maybe he was Alliance (Officer or Operative) or maybe he was something else entirely. Whatever or whoever Book was in his past, it haunts him. To find redemption, Book took on the mantle of a Shephard and went into the abbey.

I see Book kind of similar to Clint Eastwood's Preacher character in "Pale Rider".

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:38 PM

BOOKSWORD

Quote:
Originally posted by Theron:
Hi everyone, I have my own personal theory about who Book was before he became a preacher. I believe he went by the name of Shaun Yu the psychotic dictator. (not sure of the spelling)
This fits the argument of him being a reformed person trying to make his way in the world and test the strength of his faith. I will not reiterate the rest of the argument here but link to it on another thread on this site if anyone would be interested in reading it. It is to long to try writing out again.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=7257&m=94108#94108

I will say this, I do not believe he was a soilder on either side of the war, an intelligence officer for either side, or a federal marshall. Those answers seem a little to trite and pat for me to believe.

Theron took a look. Have to say that your thoery holds more then a little water. The Serenity could have its own Angelus ( whould that make him Bookulus...never mind)

What I would have loved (besides the whole cancelling issue ) whould have been a flashback at a younger and more morally darker Book.

Oh, thats what fanfic is for.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 22, 2005 5:36 PM

EMBERS

well, those of you who watched the video
from Sunday's Wizard World Con in LA
now know the truth....
yes, Nathan let slip the fake spoiler,
the TRUTH about Book's past is that he was a

Select to view spoiler:

LANDSCAPER!

we should have seen it!

PS: I just love reviving a long dead thread....

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:01 PM

ZOID

TheGreyJedi:

I wouldn't place too much stock on anything issuing from the mouth of Jubal Early. Remember: When Simon asks him if he's a bounty hunter, he says "No, that ain't it at all... I'm a bounty hunter." River proves quite convincingly (and he admits) that he's not all there in the head, that he's not right in the head. There's enough evidence to take it as a given that Jubal is not only amoral, he's delusional.

On the other hand, I will buy the argument that Jubal could see the way Book moved, when he heard the sound behind him, and recognizes someone who knows how to 'clear' a room. That's a skill (along with tactical planning, police call-in procedure, marksmanship and hand-to-hand) that we've seen Book exhibit that nobody who's strictly a priest would know. I think that also invalidates the notion that he's the Pope, acting on behalf of the Church. ...Unless this is an homage to Monty Python's Inquisition sketch.

Book was something before he became a priest, and he was very good at it. That something taught him some very characteristic skills, as noted above. I only fear we will never truly find out what the previous occupation was, or why he felt compelled to leave it and join the priesthood...

Observantly,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:26 PM

STARRBABY

I would have to agree with everyone who mentioned that in Jossland, people change sides from villian to hero and back.

That is the way it is in real life. Good people do bad things, and bad people do good things. People reform and give up thier wicked ways, and they also get pissed off at the world and trun into evil people.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER

POST DATE