Jayne not being a bad guy by Kaele

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Jayne not being a bad guy

POSTED BY: KAELE
UPDATED: Saturday, February 4, 2006 07:12
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VIEWED: 4051
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Thursday, February 2, 2006 5:42 PM

Just watched the movie again today.

How about quoting times when Jayne's SUPPOSED to be a bad guy, but actually isn't.

Where: Serenity (BDM)
What: Making sure to check that everyone was buckled in as the ship went into the tailspin, while he gets tossed around the ship.

Kaele
(pronounced 'kale', not like kaylee)
AIM - Dewlanna
YID - jedi_kaele

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Thursday, February 2, 2006 6:26 PM

IMALEAF

Who knows what seeing 30 million people murder would do to a body? And it was an order from Mal.

~~River: Bible's broken. Contradictions, false logics. Doesn't make sense.~~

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Thursday, February 2, 2006 6:44 PM

CHRISMOORHEAD

I never considered Jayne a bad guy, just a hardass. He's probably by second favorite character next to Mal, and if I didn't feel such a personal connection with Mal, Jayne would deffinately be first just out of coolness.

But like all assholes, Jayne just seems to take a while to adapt to new things, especially those that require caring for. I think that's why he comes off as a prick in relation to Simon and River so much, but I think his show of concern not just for himself, but for the crew when he gave Capt. Reynolds a scolding (the one where he brings up the battle of Serenity valley) shows another side of him. Also, later, where he quotes Shepherd. "You can't do something smart and do something right.", if he wanted off the ship he woulda gotten off, but there's more depth to the character than grenades and an attitude.

"Deep in the battlefield covered in blood
Lies an Airborne Ranger dying in the mud
He fought for his country and he died like a man
Though some people back home just wouldn't understand"

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Thursday, February 2, 2006 7:10 PM

THEMANTHEYCALLEDJAMES

Dude did you see Arieal. Jayne= bad
He should have been kicked off the crew right then

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Thursday, February 2, 2006 8:02 PM

CHRISMOORHEAD

Unfortunately, no, I didn't. I've seen maybe 3 episodes of Firefly, but I'll be getting the DVD set as soon as I get my next check in the bank. I guess I don't know as much about the character as other people, so maybe I'm wrong. I was just speaking on what I've seen so far, and under the general topic of "When Jayne wasn't a bad guy".

"Deep in the battlefield covered in blood
Lies an Airborne Ranger dying in the mud
He fought for his country and he died like a man
Though some people back home just wouldn't understand"

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Thursday, February 2, 2006 8:06 PM

LUTHIEN1121

]Dude did you see Arieal. Jayne= bad
]He should have been kicked off the crew right ]then

...And he almost died for it.

I have mixed feelings about Jayne--sometimes I can't help but love the big goof, and then sometimes I hate him. He's rarely the pure bad guy, though.

One more thing to love about Firefly--real-life complexity in the characters!

edit *sigh* third times the charm I hope..
We're gonna explode? I don't wanna explode!

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Thursday, February 2, 2006 8:19 PM

TEALCANDTRIP

jayne was originally the untrustworthy (though I hesitate to go as far as completely bad) guy, and he never really fully escapes that role.

But even at Ariel, you can tell that he is greatly disturbed when he learns just what the Alliance did to River. Unfortunately, by that time, he had already called the Alliance so it was too late to back out. Still, he feels ashamed enough of himself to request that Mal not tell the others what he did. That regret is why Mal doesn't kill him.

Then in War Stories, the next episode, he feels guilty enough to share his cut of the money with the rest of the crew. Wash even comments on how unexpected this was.

His relationship with the Tams, and especially River, begins to change. In Trash, River states "He's afraid we'll know." Why on earth would the old Jayne be afraid of that?! He practically tells Mal in the pilot that he'd betray him for the right amount of cash. And he's certainly closer to Mal than River or Simon.

Then finally, in the movie, he is VERY concerned about River when she collapses at the bank. Note: this is before he has any idea about the Reavers. Also, when she's kicking butt in the bar, he only tries to restrain her. Even when she hits him in the balls and pauses for a moment, he doesn't retaliate.

Yes, while Jayne is ultimately motivated by money, if it's good enough, he does grow at least some during the series and the movie.

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Thursday, February 2, 2006 8:24 PM

THECOLLECTOR

Every group of people needs to have someone that they all love to hate... but they will stand up for them when that person's chips are down.

On a sitcom level, that'd be your Steve Urkel, or your Frank/Winchester...

This one is a tad bit different but it's still the same concept... to have a Devil's Advocate... per se'

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Friday, February 3, 2006 2:26 AM

DONCOAT

Probably Jayne's most un-bad moment comes in Serenity (pilot) after Kaylee's run-in with the Fed. The shot of him hunkered down outside the infirmary is heart wrenching.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Friday, February 3, 2006 2:54 AM

KAELE

There are more than a few times that Jayne hunkers in and tosses the bad-boy image aside.

--Working out with Shepherd Book. What bad guy would be comfortable pumping iron with a man of god?
--The previously mentioned Kaylee surgery, even though beforehand he had just been absolutely rude and crude to her.
--The whole, "Does it mean betraying the Captain?" in Serenity (BDEp) Makes you think he woulda been up for it if it hadn't meant screwing Mal over.
--In Ariel, I get the feeling the only reason he went for the plan in the first place is because Mal wouldn't be nearby and hence wouldn't be 'betrayed'. Once Mal made his opinions on that clear, Jayne backs down to only a few well chosen comments about that throughout the series/movie.
--Getting torn up about the mudder who threw himself in front of the shot meant for him in Jaynestown.

I think he's just a big ole softie, but doesn't always make the right decisions. I'd just love to see someone actually call him on it once... Ah, well. Maybe when the novels come out.

Kaele
(pronounced 'kale', not like Kaylee)
AIM - Dewlanna
YID - jedi_kaele

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Friday, February 3, 2006 2:56 AM

ASARIAN

Jayne, the character, is very entertaining, and a veritable source of some of the funniest lines in the movie/series. But I am still in shock over what he did to River. I get why the person Jayne would do such a thing; it's really just ... unfathomable. I understand; I don't comprehend.

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

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Friday, February 3, 2006 1:13 PM

CAPTKAR

The character of Jayne is a very tough one to associate. Jayne has many times when he has a billy-bad-a$$ thing going on.

1) The bar fight (the train job) when he isnt going to do anythin the help the captain, and all of the sudden hes beating up three guys.
2) In War Stories when he and Zoe almost single hanndedly storm the station.
3) In the pilot when he plays the role as a sniper and takes out i think 3 guys with the rifle.

But here are also times when you can see a sensitive side to him, and genuine concern.

1) In Ariel number one because of his regret for calling the feds so he tells Mal to "make something up, don't tell 'em what I did.
2) In the pilot when Kaylee gets shot and you can se him hunched down to check on Kaylee.
3) In The Message when he asks the sheperd if he is bieng to loud for him to pray over the body, and telling the sheperd that the lord outta look after the dead.

But most of the time he just shows all balls no brain and a complete face of stupidity like on the pilot when he wants to shoot Badger even though he has 4 guns on him at the time.

With all this in mind its hard to pin a certain role to Jayne. He could be the dumb muscle of the group. He could be the soft hearted brute. Or he could just be the Jayne we all know and some of us love.

In my opinion it's too hard to classify Jayne so im not going to try to, but maybe with these items you could put togethor a better character description.

What would yall say based on my post?

-When you can't run you crawl, and when you can't crawl you find someone to carry you-

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Friday, February 3, 2006 2:30 PM

GUTTERBALL

Jayne is just...Jayne.

He's neither stupid nor overburdened with intelligence. He sometimes acts before thinking, yes, but he always shows genuine regret afterward and beats himself up as badly as anyone else if things go south.

Sure, he sometimes messes with his crew, but God help anyone else who does. You notice that, while he was willing to turn River over after she'd slashed right through him, his reasons to Mal in the infirmary were actually pretty sound -- ie., what if River came after Kaylee or Inara while in "a murderin' mood"?

In all, he's too original a character to be "the bad good guy" or "the loveable dope" or "the musclehead". He's a mercenary, and you gotta know what you're getting when you hire on a mercenary. You get someone who is as loyal as money can buy.

And Jayne? Well, he's a little more loyal than that.

Remember in the BDM when Mal and Zoe are quietly arguing about whether they should have taken that guy with them when the Reavers interrupted their payroll heist? Mal talks about a "crew that ain't been paid" in his list of reasons why they couldn't drop the payload.

If Jayne ain't been paid but is still around...well...you do the math. 10% of nothin' is, after all, NOTHIN'.

________________________________________

Please remember that the 9:30 show is completely different from the 7:30 show. Don't forget to tip your waitress.

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Friday, February 3, 2006 10:54 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by GutterBall:

You notice that, while he was willing to turn River over after she'd slashed right through him, his reasons to Mal in the infirmary were actually pretty sound -- ie., what if River came after Kaylee or Inara while in "a murderin' mood"?

Hey, what can I say? He looks better in red! :)

Quote:
If Jayne ain't been paid but is still around...well...you do the math. 10% of nothin' is, after all, NOTHIN'.

Yeah, I know; you can't do a whole show about nothin' (only Seinfeld can pull that off.) But, it's River, you know? You can't just sell River, well, down the river. :) Now somethin' about that is just downright unsettlin'.

But okay, your observations about Jayne -- my personal obsession with River notwithstanding -- are actually pretty keen.

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 3:03 AM

HORRID

theres also the fact that he sends alot of his money to his Mom to help out.

I just finished watching the movie again and one thing I noticed was when Jayne goes to get River when she's locked up. it seemed like river might have psychically planted that suggestion in his mind. cos she's in the little room realises what miranda is and that she needs to get to the bridge and all of a sudden as jaynes just screwing around in the kitchen the need to open the door and get her off the boat seems to just come over him like a wave. might be reading too much into it but just a thought

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 5:34 AM

GUTTERBALL

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Hey, what can I say? He looks better in red! :)

*blinks* He can look BETTER?? Ha!

Quote:
But okay, your observations about Jayne -- my personal obsession with River notwithstanding -- are actually pretty keen.

Now that was downright gracious! I must admit that my "keen" observations probably spring from the fact that I adore the big lug beyond all reason.

I have a soft spot in my otherwise diamond-hard heart for big guys who name their big guns and find comfort in the fact that they might be the only survivor of a bloody excursion.

What can I say? I love a muscle-bound mercenary!

________________________________________

Please remember that the 9:30 show is completely different from the 7:30 show. Don't forget to tip your waitress.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 6:47 AM

FILTER

The thing that makes Jayne a great character is his unpredictability. You never know if he is going to turn on you or save your life, or both. He has some of the funniest lines in the show, and actually, almost every line he has is covered in a humorous tone. Such as in the movie when Mal takes River back on the ship after she kicks everybody's butt. Jayne askes what they are still doing on the ship...didn't they have an intricate plan on how they weren't going to be there.....hahahahah. makes me laugh every time.

Filter

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 6:50 AM

FILTER

Another great Jayne moment is when he is in the cargo hold with Kaylee during Serenity and he reflects on what it would take for him to kill a man...he says I'd kill a man if....i got paid...etc. Basically, he'd kill a man for almost anything....but would he?

Filter

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 7:04 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

There are a lot of examples, but one that I think is overlooked is in Serenity (the episode) when he says the money wasn't good enough to betray Mal.

Now we know that Jayne will turn on people for an extra 3 percent and his own room. We know that he'll throw his partner out of a ship before he gives up money.

In Serenity he is offered enough to buy his own ship, and he doesn't betray Mal. If that much wasn't good enough no amount will ever be.

If you watch Jayne is a believer in family. Mal, Zoe, Wash, and Kaylee are all family. He could have just as easily turned over Mal and Zoe along with Simon and River and probably would have gotten a bigger reward for catching the acomplaces, but he didn't.

However at the same time he is not a nice guy, most of the time. He new River was innocent, he knew she would be torutured, and he was even moved by it, yet he still turned her over.

I think his top two priorities are those who he considers part of the crew and money, in that order, and all else is secondary. Morality is one of those things almost always.

For example in The Train Job, when he says that maybe they'll come back for Mal and Zoe you know he means that they will, just that they're going to do it after they finsh the job. (Thus making sure they don't make meatpies out of the lot of them.)

At the same time, after I said morality is one of those things, Jayne isn't just the first one to say that Mal is right they and should risk almost certain death to do something right. He is also the one who asks, "You suppose he got through, you think Mal got the word out?"

He's the one who thought it was wrong to manipluate the Mudders, though that was in large part pride, and he clearly would have rather died in the place of the mudder, someone he didn't even know.

-

Jayne isn't a good person, but he is the kind of person that will watch over Kaylee though the infirmary window, send money back home to mom, and check the straps on everyone.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 7:04 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I think there is something wrong with my mouse because I'm fairly sure I only clicked it once.

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Saturday, February 4, 2006 7:12 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by horrid:
I just finished watching the movie again and one thing I noticed was when Jayne goes to get River when she's locked up. it seemed like river might have psychically planted that suggestion in his mind. cos she's in the little room realises what miranda is and that she needs to get to the bridge and all of a sudden as jaynes just screwing around in the kitchen the need to open the door and get her off the boat seems to just come over him like a wave. might be reading too much into it but just a thought

I don't think that's it, though I certainly see where you're coming from.

Think about two things, "She ain't exactly helpless," and, "We're going for a nice shuttle ride." I think he really planned to dump her believing full well, and quite possibly correctly, that she could fend for herself without too much trouble.

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