I will twist your words and insult you if you disagree with me being trollish. Only my opinion is worth anything, however trollishly I may express it. So there. by kaneman

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

I will twist your words and insult you if you disagree with me being trollish. Only my opinion is worth anything, however trollishly I may express it. So there.

POSTED BY: KANEMAN
UPDATED: Thursday, October 26, 2006 07:52
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2454
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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:06 PM

KANEMAN

This whole board is in an uproar over the fact that Universal came down on a thief. They have the right AND the responsibility to do so. We have people talking about a Universal boycott and all this nonsense..Why? Get a grip. Don't post about your feelings either use your fu*king heads....Robin Hood was a well intentioned robber, people like 11th hour are money grubbing thieves.....Well, it's true...What say you?

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:18 PM

MRT

Ah, Kaneman, I was waiting for you to post something like this!!

What you say is undoubtedly true from one perspective, and I am inclined to agree as I can empathise with the guys who have paid for the lisences to produce 'official' goods... However, for me the part that is distastful is twofold:

1) Firstly the move from encouraging, without any clear parametres, the fans to promote the BDM in any way possible to the latest position of persecuting them for doing so... a shift that leads onto my second point...

2) The manner and tone of the letters from Universal LLLC. I despise laziness when it leads to insulting people, and in this case the lawyers seem to have fired off standard letters of demand with little thought and no research into the background, loyalty and history of the fanbase. A fanbase they, only 12 months ago, encouraged and actively sought the support of.

So in one sense I concur, people have been making relatively small amounts of money by illicitly producing and selling moonshine, however the still (to continue the analogy) could have been closed down with a polite word rather than by sending in the heavies and trying to batter folks with a cudgel.

I would point people towards LexiGeek's thread calling on Browncoat artists as well as CABridges call for creativity in the face of adversity, to work alongside the rules so that all can profit...

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:44 PM

KANEMAN

"standard letters of demand with little thought and no research into the background, loyalty and history of the fanbase"

A nice post just..well, wrong. Loyalty is irrelevant in this case. They have a legal obligation to protect the property for those who paid for it. Whether or not the thief is a loyal fan or a bootlegging DVD hack, their obligation remains the same. A standard letter is fine.... and MRT, I pity the fool who thinks different.....Well, ah forget it.............

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:50 PM

MRT

I suspect that the lack of background knowledge etc is symptomatic of the size of the corporation and the difficulties of the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing... then again there could be an interesting question over whether there was collusion on guerilla marketting between the studio and the fans in 2005 before the BDM was released, and whether that has any precedent in relation to the current situation...loyalty is only a tug on the emotions in this case, however history sets precedent... I have no idea - just a thought!

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:00 PM

KANEMAN

My guess is: there was never any collusion between Universal and the fans. Maybe Joss and the actors asked to spread the word, but I doubt anything official from Universal....read the CHUD post http://www.chud.com/index.php?type=news&id=7901 I think that guy nails it...

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:13 PM

MRT

my knowledge of the 'Verse doesn't go back that far I'm afraid - we'd have to ask an older Browncoat! As for CHUD... well he clearly has an axe to grind and is being a little sadistic in his enjoyment of others pain... but yes, there are good points in it, but that said there are at least two sides to every argument...

In this case we should be standing by our Browncoat artists and other creative types to aid the redirection of their energies towards new and exciting merchandise and goodies where Universal and Fox won't be able to get at them! We need to be keeping their stores alive, as well as supporting the 'official' sellers, so that the studios can see how big (and willing to part with our cashy money) the Browncoat community is!

I wonder if anyone else is going to post in this thread... then again it is a mite early in the US and we are being a little serious!

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:48 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Kaneman, shut up. Just shut the hell up. I am so tired of seeing your belligerent, nasty, uncalled for posts on this subject.
For one thing, 11th hour is a very wonderful and prominant Browncoat who has been leading guerilla marketing since the very beginning, and she is very good at what she does, from everything I've seen. She isn't 'money-grubbing' and she isn't a thief. She used her own designs and creativity, her own artwork based on the 'verse. Much of it is free to print as flyers, bookmarks, etc for guerilla marketing purposes. She is one of many reasons Serenity was made in the first place. She's been a leader for a lot of free marketing and she's done it well. To suddenly, without warning, bring the roof down on her head is ridiculous and uncalled for and it makes the fanbase sick.
Do I think Universal should be boycotted? No. Do I think they're isolating some fans? Yes, yes I do. Will I refuse to buy T-shirts, bags, pins, etc that they choose to put out? Of course not. Would I pick fan-made merch over a similar official product that would give money to the studio responsible for making the movie? No, of course not. Do I think there is a larger, wider selection of fan merch than official? Yes. Do I think the fans know better what they want than the studio? It would seem so. Do I think you need to shut your filthy mouth and stop insulting shiny Browncoats who need some support right now as the world falls down around them? YES! Now BIZUI! Bai tuo, an jing yi dian!

We will not go quietly into the night
We will not give in without a Big Damn Fight
We are Browncoats, and we know we are right
We will rage, rage against the dying of our engine light!

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:14 AM

MRT

Morning PR! I was going for the reasoned and calm approach, but then again, there is more than one way to skin a cat (where did that phrase come from? - its horrible!)...

I'm still quite new to the 'Verse so don't know all the history, but judging by the posts here and on the OB I can see that 11th has been wearing her Browncoast night and day and has done some pretty amazing things for the community and by default for Universal. That said, I suspect that there are a large number of people lurking on the boards who see the situation as (I think) you and I do - people who can understand both points of view but are just really really disappointed by Universal's approach... personally, I am waiting for the end of the month and will then go shopping!

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 1:38 AM

RAINSTICK

as i already stated in another thread on that UNiversal and Fox clampdown issue, it is a perfectly reasonable, understandable, economically logical, and legally right thing for them to do. it is sad for the people concerned but they appropriated something that was copyrighted and tried to use it for their commercial gain. that's copyright infringement. you may not like that, but that's the rules of the game. Universal and Fox would be very stupid not to follow that up and try to prevent others from profiting on their franchises. that would put them at a serious disadvantage vis-a-vis their competitors who are exploiting their own synergies to the utmost (e.g. Disney...). although this sounds like i am defending the big players, it is more complicated than that. the rules by which they play were made by them only in part, and unless you want to change the whole capitalist form of production (oh, if we just could) the companies have to play by these rules or die. it's darwinism through and through. get used to it.

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 1:58 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Does the CHUD author make some valid points? Sure, but he is way off the mark on others.

Does Universal own the property of Serenity? Yep. Don't think you will find anyone disputing that. The problem here lies in their fickle attitude over browncoats being the backbone of their viral marketing campaign, rewarding and encouraging us to promote the BDM, then doing a 180 and demanding money from the very same browncoats they encouraged to promote the film.

The real problem I have with all of this is how Universal chose to handle this. Fox simply sent a C&D to Blue Sun Shirts. Alex @ Blue Sun tried to negotiate a licensing deal, but Fox wanted none of it. They wanted to eliminate the competition so that Stylin' Online, who Fox has obviously sold licensing to, can sell their shirts. No doubt this is what Universal is doing too. So, why couldn't Universal serve 11th Hour with a C&D and leave it at that? Why demand nearly $9,000.00 in payment and threaten legal action? The very studio that begged for our help in promoting the movie is now suing us for doing just what they asked? WTF?!?

The CHUD writer is also way off base in that the browncoats think that we "own" Serenity. We don't own, but we like to think of the 'verse that Joss created as home. We have spent a lot of free time and spendable cash on this property. That doesn't mean it is ours, but it does show our loyalty and love for the property. You would think that that loyalty would at least get Universal to play nice.

I encourage everyone here to act not react. 11th Hour says she is consulting a lawyer. Let's let the legal people do their job and see what happens. Freesoup has also posted that word has gone out to Joss to alert him as to what is going on. The hope is he can intervene on 11th Hour's behalf and perhaps calm things with Universal a bit.

I am a browncoat and I hate seeing someone, especially some big faceless business, studio or otherwise, trying to bully around an individual. I don't care for it one bit. I hope things get settled peaceful like, but if they don't we as a fanbase will have to make some decisions on whether we should continue to support Universal.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:02 AM

KANEMAN

"Kaneman, shut up. Just shut the hell up. I am so tired of seeing your belligerent, nasty, uncalled for posts on this subject.
For one thing, 11th hour is a very wonderful and prominant Browncoat who has been leading guerilla marketing since the very beginning, and she is very good at what she does, from everything I've seen."

What, I have an opinion you don't like? Too bad. 11th hour could be the Pope and it still wouldn't change my opinion on this. Quite frankly, what you think about her character is irrelevant. Actions speak louder than words for a reason. Why don't you, you ugly sloth, go play in the mangrove swamps with the other critters. It's to damn bad you don't like my opinion you mange little mongoose. Nice to see you playing hall monitor again. Do you get paid for that?

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:15 AM

KANEMAN

"We don't own, but we like to think of the 'verse that Joss created as home"

Try thinking of it as a rental apartment that you haven't paid the rent on for 6 months. Now imagine getting evicted. See, simple.

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:23 AM

SIMONWHO

So by that logic, you'd be okay with them shutting down fireflyfans.net and sueing Haken for breaches of copyright?

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:29 AM

KANEMAN

No, but I am usually illogical.

Why keep changing the title of my thread, you have some nerve tampering with someone else's words just because you don't like them. And to title it "Ignore kaneman being nasty and trollish" you are an asshole. Play in the swamp yet? That is just wrong. But you don't care cause your special....

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:30 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
So by the logic, you'd be okay with them shutting down fireflyfans.net and sueing Haken for breaches of copyright?

Haken isn't charging money, and making a profit off this site.

Haken also wasn't officially employed on a Serenity product (like 11th Hour was on the RPG). Being a paid employee who then illeagally sells licensed materials on the side takes this beyond just a Browncoat doing geurilla marketing.

And it's really chickenshit to change the title of someone's thread just because you don't agree with them.

Damnit. I hate, hate, hate agreeing with Kaneman on something.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:37 AM

SIMONWHO

Actually, I didn't realise I was going to change the thread title, I thought it was just going to put it in the highlighted bit. That's a bit odd for it to work like that - I do genuinely apologise for that.

But Haken takes money for the site - granted, probably nowhere near enough to actually pay for the costs involved but nonetheless money comes in as a result of the links on the front page.

That's enough for lawyers who are on the rampage and right now Universal's lawyers seem out of control.

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:38 AM

SIMONWHO

Er... that title change wasn't me though.

Still, that's what happens when you're a troll - people feel entitled to treat you like crap because that's how you treat others.

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:50 AM

KANEMAN

I wasn't saying you did it. I'm pretty sure it Phoenixfatass...Anyway, call me a troll all you'd like but I have never changed someone else's words. It is wrong on so many levels. Defend it if you want to, but it is dirty filthy dirty and the asshole doing it should be banned from the site.....

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:17 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:

But Haken takes money for the site - granted, probably nowhere near enough to actually pay for the costs involved but nonetheless money comes in as a result of the links on the front page.

That's enough for lawyers who are on the rampage and right now Universal's lawyers seem out of control.

Didn't say he didn't get money, I said he's not charging us, nor making a profit. If you're going to respond to something I post, try reading it first.

I don't know the particulars - I doubt anyone here does - but if 11th Hour did art for the Serenity RPG, then there must have been a contract involved. Chances are pretty good that the contract ruled out selling Serenity merchandise on the side, no matter how well executed the art was, or how well-intentioned the artist was.

Which is entirely different from a public message board that does not sell anything.

I feel bad for fans of 11th Hours's work, because they clearly really enjoyed it. I fell less sorry for 11th Hour, who had to have known that selling the stuff was illeagal, and most likely in violation of a contract they signed.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:26 AM

KANEMAN

Sorry storymark but I believe this statement is true:

"who had to have known that selling the stuff was illeagal, and most likely in violation of a contract they signed."

Two times in a day, PSST,...*whispers*...try not to let that happen to often. There may be ramifications?

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:52 AM

SHINY

Have you personally reviewed all of the items that were in 11th's cafepress store? If so, did you think that most or all of them were really infringing? The last time I perused her store, I saw lots of things like stylized versions of the Chinese character for the word 'Serenity'. I can guarantee you that Uni does not have copyright or trademark over that character.

Were there some things that crossed the line to infringement? Yes, but I think 11th acted in good faith believing that "the powers that be" were intentionally turning a blind eye to small-scale fan-created works and merchandise because they saw greater benefit in the grassroots marketing impact than they would get in trying to sell them official licenses or sue them. For some reason, this policy seems to have changed (maybe HotTopic or some other official licensee complained), and 11th has quickly complied with the Uni lawyer's request. I think it's unfair and needlessly inflammatory to call her a 'thief'.

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

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