A jumble of posts about Firefly returning by Succatash

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A jumble of posts about Firefly returning

POSTED BY: SUCCATASH
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 7, 2004 05:18
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Saturday, January 3, 2004 12:52 PM

I'm not saying anything new, but everything I'm reading in various posts keeps giving me a nagging question I want to settle, beyond a doubt.

Here's what I understand: Universal purchased the movie rights, but Fox still owns TV rights. Any network to pick up Firefly would have to buy these rights. Joss cannot independenty borrow money and make a direct to DVD series because Fox owns Firefly?

But doesn't Joss own Firefly? He is the creator.

Does Fox own "Malcolm Reynolds" and "Serenity?" How sad that Joss's dream was sold on such a shaky deal. It's his idea, how can Fox sue him if he makes Independent Firefly since they obviously don't want it?

If Joss owns Firefly, why doesn't he just borrow some money and get it going?

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 3:42 PM

KERNELM

In general, if you create something, it's yours. However, it's not easy to fund something like making a TV show on your own, so Joss has to have contracts with studios in order to produce his work, and in almost all cases, the studio retains the rights to the work. It's just like how in music, very few artists actually have control over their own work, since the contracts usually stipulate studio control of all IP rights. There's a few exceptions, such as when U2 bought the rights to their own music from Island back when Island was having financial difficulties.

As far as I know, Joss had/has a contract with Fox, so he didn't have much of a choice on who to sell his show to. And in any case, he likely wouldn't have retained control.

It doesn't matter whether or not Fox wants it. They own the IP, and they can do with it whatever they please. I'm not saying if it's morally right or wrong, but legally the copyright owner is the one who has all the marbles. If they won't want to sell their work, it doesn't mean you can just take it.

And besides, it's not a trivial thing to borrow money to produce a TV show. Banks don't risk tens of millions of dollars on "failed" TV shows.

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 3:51 PM

MAKEROFPATHS

To add to KernelM's notes:

Look a the end of any show and read the following: Twentieth Century Fox is the author of this show for the purposes of . . . various copyright conventions. This little statement shows how the producing company imposes its authorship and therefore takes all rights as the author of the show. Of course, they give people like Joss millions of dollars -- you have no choice as the actual author. JMS of B5 fame pointed this out.

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 4:04 PM

SUCCATASH

It seems to me that Joss should sell, borrow, whatever, to buy the rights back and then go Independent. Find a foreign investor, whatever.

Firefly shouldn't have to depend on +- 7 tv networks. Start with Direct to DVD and Pay-to-Download Internet services and then make the network execs form a line for syndication rights as Joss laughs his way to the bank.

I realize I'm saying nothing new. Except, let's all be clear the bottleneck is with FOX. Let's all be aware that the biggest problem of all is that Joss doesn't even own the rights to Firefly.

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 4:06 PM

SUCCATASH

Okay, here's another question. Could Fox, in the future, bring back Firefly and have new actors and new writers, etc? Without Joss?

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 4:09 PM

DESANGRO

If they did I wouldn't see it.

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 5:20 PM

SUCCATASH

Are we all in agreement that Fox has the right to bring back Firefly, with aliens and sounds in space and laugh tracks? With all new producers and actors and call it Firefly?

I don't think Fox would do it, but it bothers me that they could if they wanted to.

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 5:33 PM

RISKEVERYTHING

FOX has made it clear that they would not stand in the way of another station picking up the FireFly show. Why are you all ranting about it?

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 5:39 PM

SUCCATASH

I'm not ranting. I'm trying to understand.

How much $ is FOX asking, is the question. If it were as simple as you suggest, Joss would have the rights to Firefly.

Lucas did it the right way, in my opinion.

When Lucas negotiated his deal with Fox to make Star Wars, the studio was shocked to learn that the hot director was not asking for a lot of money. Instead, Lucas wanted control. He wanted to have the right to the final cut of the film, 40% of the net box-office gross, all rights to future sequels and ownership of all the merchandising rights associated with Star Wars. At the time, science fiction films were not very profitable. Hence, Fox thought they were ripping Lucas off. Sequel and merchandise rights to science fiction films were worthless at the time. In the end, this deal would eventually make Lucas a billionaire and cost Fox an untold fortune in lost revenues.

http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/history.html

P.S. Yes, I know about Supershadow

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 5:48 PM

CARDIE

Firefly is owned by Twentieth Century Fox the TV and film production studio, not by the FOX TV network. Even though they are part of the same media conglomerate, they are not the same. The Star Trek franchise is analogous. Although the various Trek shows have aired on NBC, in syndication, and on UPN, they have always been owned by Paramount (which bought its original production company Desilu.) (UPN and Paramount are now part of the Viacom media conglomerate)So, yes, Fox the studio could use the Firefly name on anything it wanted to, but I doubt they have any interest in that.

Few show creators could afford the millions of dollars to buy back rights from a studio, and I don't think we want Joss to bankrupt himself betting that direct to video Firefly could pay him back for that big a financial outlay.

Publishers and distributors generally own rights and copyright. It's not some big outrage, simply the price of getting someone else to pay the production costs and marketing. I've written or edited four books, and I don't have copyright to any of them.

Cardie

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 5:54 PM

SUCCATASH

Quote:
Originally posted by Cardie:
Few show creators could afford the millions of dollars to buy back rights from a studio, and I don't think we want Joss to bankrupt himself betting that direct to video Firefly could pay him back for that big a financial outlay.

Cough cough, YES, yes we do. It's a safe bet.

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 7:36 PM

CARDIE

If it was a safe bet, the show would have had much higher ratings when it was on the air. Fans always overestimate both their numbers and their power. It's what makes us charming crusaders.

I have no idea what the profit margin is on a DVD, but I'd guess you'd be asking Joss to put out a considerable part of his personal fortune on the hopes of making a very modest profit, and that would depend on nearly everyone who ever watched Firefly for free being willing to pay for the DVD. That's not a gamble I'd take with my family's money.

Cardie

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 8:54 PM

DYAIRVATREE

Well I know for a fact from reading Joss interviews that Universal has bought the rights so a film can be made I assumed this ment all future Firefly material movie or television would be owned by them. It is only past Firefly episodes that Universal does not own,that was my understanding at the time any way.

Lets say I'm wrong about Universal owning T.V. rights and they only own movie rights. I know Fox didn't try to stand in the way of Firefly going to another network Joss did shop it around. So either way if the movie is successful I don't think anything is likely to stand in the way of it going to T.V. if some network wants it.

As JMS has often pointed out in hollywood companies would rather own all of nothing then part of something these companies don't like to share even when it's profitable to do so. So if thats true Universal would never want to share rights with Fox which makes me suspect they own all future Firefly material but thats just a guess.

Laugh tracks anyone?

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 9:23 PM

SHIROGOMA

So, who's going to find out if Universal has all the rights? I'm willing to start pouring more postcards into a mailbox in another direction. Most of mine are 50/50 save firefly, save farscape. Let me know what I can do... I'm new here and just getting my bearings...

I'd hate to see Firefly destroyed by some gorham corporate entity. AND I'm sick of shows with quality and art being shoved into oblivion only to be replaced by stupid reality shows like 'The Bachelor' or 'Joe Millionare' or the gorham 'Simple life'.

We must rise up and kill them with our sporks.

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 10:49 PM

DYAIRVATREE

Okay I've been checking around and keep reading Universal has bought the rights to Firefly. I never read Universal has bought SOME RIGHTS to Firefly just THE RIGHTS to Firefly. I think it's safe to say as of now Fox is out of the picture.

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Saturday, January 3, 2004 11:36 PM

DYAIRVATREE

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
I'm not saying anything new, but everything I'm reading in various posts keeps giving me a nagging question I want to settle, beyond a doubt.

Here's what I understand: Universal purchased the movie rights, but Fox still owns TV rights. Any network to pick up Firefly would have to buy these rights. Joss cannot independenty borrow money and make a direct to DVD series because Fox owns Firefly?

Succatash I'm curious have you read from any offical news or interview sites that say just movie rights? Because if your just reading posts here that say that then it's just people who in fact mean the rights rather than what they are saying wich is movie rights.

I've checked a couple of different sources and they keep saying Universal has bought the rights to Firefly.Here is an example from the Hollywood Reporter check paragraph 3.

http://hollywoodreporter.com/thr/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=19
69026

So until proven otherwise I'm going to believe Universal does indeed own all rights to Firefly. With luck this will reassure both Succatash and Shirogoma.

Hey cool after many edits I figured out how to do quotes shinny!

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Sunday, January 4, 2004 7:11 AM

SUCCATASH

Thanks for your post, Dtree. I hope you are right. I'd like to find out for sure.

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Sunday, January 4, 2004 7:13 AM

SUCCATASH

The only thing the still bugs me about this sentence:

"Universal recently acquired the rights to "Firefly" from 20th Century Fox Television, where Whedon's Mutant Enemy Inc. production company has a television deal."

Its says HAS a television deal, not had.

I always assumed it meant movie rights, not tv rights. I really hope I'm wrong.

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Sunday, January 4, 2004 10:33 AM

SHIROGOMA

But, they bought the rights from the television portion of the corporation. So... I can easily see where this is confusing.

After reading the article again, I have decided that Universal has all the rights now. I also heard somewhere that the 'movie' may be only a t.v. mini-series if there isn't enough interest.

Heck I don't care what form it takes... I just want more of the real stuff.

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Sunday, January 4, 2004 10:35 AM

KELSO

I would actually prefer a TV miniseries. It could be longer than a film, and there wouldn't be as much pressure to appeal to the 14 yr. old moviegoing crowd.

Plus, it might be more possible to spin it off into a new TV series.

-------
Well, here I am.

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Monday, January 5, 2004 5:45 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

The way I read it Tash is that Universal bought all the rights to Firefly. Of course I may be wrong as the wording is not clear in the article and there has been no confirmation from anyone in an official capacity.

Personally I think a TV mini series might be a better bet than a movie. A TV mini series costs the viewer nothing to watch, they can do it from the comfort of their own homes, and as Kelso pointed out, a mini series could run significantly longer than a movie. If the mini series did well, it would be nothing to spin off into a new series from there. The only problem would be the one we had to begin with; no network wanted to take a chance on the show.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 5:18 AM

DYAIRVATREE

Damn Succatash your really serious about finding out who owns the rights just took part in your poll. I'm still pretty sure it's just Universal I mean why own only the movie rights. After all if the films a hit wouldn't Universal be pretty dumb to let Fox bring Firefly back as a T.V. show and make money off Universal's film? I can't believe they be that dumb, but that assumes logic in Hollywood.

The only way to settle your question once and for all is too ask Joss Wheadon or Tim Minear. So if any of you out there is lucky enough to be at a convention feel free to ask the following question. Does Universal own all rights both television and film to all future Firefly from this point foward? Is Fox out of the picture from this point foward?

I'm mostly sure Universal does own all future rights based on articles I've read but it never hurts to be absolutely sure.

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